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[2008] Exchangers charged fees that owners are NOT charged/MERGED

djs

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We did an exchange to Hiawatha Manor at Lake Tansi several years ago and they charged exchangers to use the pool! There were 6 of us (2 adults and 4 children) and it was going to cost us over $100 to use the pool for the week!! I couldn't believe it! When I took the matter up with the resort manager, his response was that they charged exchangers so the community residents could keep their on-site golf fees lower. If we didn't like the fee for the pool, we could use the lake for free.:mad:

Dori

This is when you could fill out the review form that II asks for (and presumably RCI does too) and give them a low rating. If enough people do that, they'll soon see their "golden pinapple" turn into a gray one, or their gray one turn into a whole lot of nothing.

Besides I thought the developers charged 20X the resale price so that they could keep MF down low :D
 

davesdog

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That's harsh and probably gives exchangers a bad reputation.

Danette

I'm not saying I trash the room. I just do stuff like take, longer, hotter, and more often showers. Wash cloths and towels more often, and in warmer water. The dishwasher gets run every evening, even if half full. I'll use the regular oven, rather than the microwave. And I keep the room warmer, or cooler than I would at home.

Let's just say less green. There is nothing that would give exchangers a bad reputation.
 

AwayWeGo

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[triennial - points]
Shux, I Do All That Stuff Anyway.

I'm not saying I trash the room. I just do stuff like take, longer, hotter, and more often showers. Wash cloths and towels more often, and in warmer water. The dishwasher gets run every evening, even if half full. I'll use the regular oven, rather than the microwave.
I mean, it's my vacation home away from home, so why not ?

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​

 

Mel

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Perhaps we need to ask the exchange companies to make it clear what is included in an exchange, and what is not. If there is an onsite pool, ut there is a charge to use it, don't count it as a resort amenity. It is a commercial amenity that happens to be onsite.

I see it as three different types of fees:

1 - pass along fees. The resort thinks the maintenance fees are too high, and to keep them low removes certain items from the fees. They then charge those that use those services. Of these fees, the ones I have the least issue with are those for services that truly are optional. This would include mid-week maid service (not just tidy), certain activities & materials for those activities, A/C if there is a reasonable alternative.

2 - mandatory pass along fees. These a fees you can't avoid, but are charged to anyone who uses the unit. This would include certain utility fees, Access to amenities like the onsite pool or fitness center. These should be included in the maintenance fees, but are not. I prefer to avoid these resorts, but at least they don't treat exchangers a second class citizens. Some resorts may do this because their structure doesn't allow them to differentiate different fees among their owners - but in that case they should include a base fee in the maintenance and a surcharge only for those weeks that actually cost more. Owners who use their week should be against this system, because it actually costs them more - weeks that go unused don't result in a fee paid at all!

3 - exchange only fees - like what DVC charges. These fees are, in effect, paid twice. Since owners are not charged extra it is assumed the expense is included in their maintenance fees, so has already been paid before the exchange. Some would argue that the services are provided as part of a membership that is distinct from the ownership. If that is true, I would expect the owner to get the benefit whether they use their week or not. In such a case, I could go to my home resort and use the fitness facility whenever I want while the person using my unit can't without paying a weekly membership fee.

But this goes against the basic premise of TS exchange - the exchanger is not getting full benefit of the use of my week. This is particularly true if my guest isn't charged but the exchanger is - because by not charging a guest the resort management is acknowledging that the benefit IS part of my ownership. Do you suppose DVC would allow you to sell your membership but retain the right to use some of the benefits?

RCI took a stand several years ago, and told DVC they could not charge the $95 fee, and DVC moved to II. That's where we find Marriott now too. If RCI had not taken a stand, who knows where we would be now. Perhaps some day we will get to a point where the only thing we exchange is the right to "rent" a week at a discounted price. I will pay $10 membership fee each year to my home resort. If I use my week, I will pay the cost of maintaining it for that week. If I exchange it, whoever uses it will pay that fee.
 

taffy19

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This is when you could fill out the review form that II asks for (and presumably RCI does too) and give them a low rating. If enough people do that, they'll soon see their "golden pinapple" turn into a gray one, or their gray one turn into a whole lot of nothing.

Besides I thought the developers charged 20X the resale price so that they could keep MF down low :D
That's about all you can do today but all these extra charges that used to be included in the past should be spelled out in the exchange wish book or online and also how much exactly it would cost so there are no surprises.

Exchanging is getting more expensive as time goes on because so many resorts or HOAs of the resorts are trying to make extra money one way or the other from the exchanger.

Also, in the past, the exchanger would get the view that the owner gave up but that too was changed but who knows who get these views really? It may be the resort for renting out so they can fetch more money. With floating weeks they have full control of everything.

I remember the time when exchanging was uncomplicated but not for everyone as it depended on what season you bought. A point system, especially for exchanging, is so much fairer because everyone can trade into the best resorts but it will take longer but then they paid less for the unit when they bought.
 

dougp26364

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As long as it is disclosed before an exchange, I think it's fine. If you don't like the policy, don't exchange there.

Good point. This is something I look for before making an exchange. It's one thing that will make me look at other resorts that are more exchanger friendly.
 

gmarine

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I'm not saying I trash the room. I just do stuff like take, longer, hotter, and more often showers. Wash cloths and towels more often, and in warmer water. The dishwasher gets run every evening, even if half full. I'll use the regular oven, rather than the microwave. And I keep the room warmer, or cooler than I would at home.

Let's just say less green. There is nothing that would give exchangers a bad reputation.

Why not do something much more simple? Just dont exchange into a resort where you dont agree with the extra fee.
 

Danette

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Thanks Sandy!

Thank you Sandy for the info. I have started a spreadsheet with this info and will add to it as I come across others.
 

ctyatty

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sounds like class action lawsuit time

As long as it is disclosed before an exchange, I think it's fine. If you don't like the policy, don't exchange there.

I could not disagree more, these fees lessen the value for those who wish to trade what they OWN. Unless these fees are allowed in the by-laws, I don't see how a resort can charge any extra fees. Who is actually getting these fees? Sometimes the management is getting this revenue so it does not even benefit the HOA.

A TS is a bundle of rights, privileges and immunities established in the original documents. The management company and/or HOA don't get to just make it up as they go along. For example these so-called transfer fees - I objected twice with two different resorts - asked for a copy of the by-law allowing a fee for changing a name on a TS on the HOA books - they "waived" the fee but I suppose they are still collecting from the ignorant.

In mortgage lending these are called junk fees - as well they should be.
 

caribbean

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Gee Sandy, sounds like we have already had this conversation one night!!

Althought I do not like paying for things that should be included in the MF, like electricity, I don't bitch as long as I know in advance and exchangers and owner BOTH pay the same amount.

When I get mad is when I don't know in advance and/or when I find out that only exchangers pay. OK to give a small discount to owners on optional items like a 10% discoount at the restaurant.

These two really pissed me off and I will not go back:

6390
Residences at the Crane
$4/hr
AC usage
Owners NOT Exempt 2007
WAS NOT MENTIONED ON RCI EXCHANGE - DIDN'T KNOW UNTIL WE CHECKED IN. PLUS THE AC UNIT DIDN'T WORK PROPERLY, SO WE WERE PAYING FOR AC WE DID NOT RECEIVE. COMPLAINTS TO MANAGEMENT RIGHT IN FRONT OF CUSTOMERS CHECKING IN DID NO GOOD.

3025
Windjammer Landing
$180/ week for a 1BR, more for a 2BR
electricity
OWNERS ALREADY PAID FOR IN MF ( PER TWO CONTACTS )
2005
KNEW ABOUT CHARGE IN ADVANCE, BUT WAS NOT AWARE THAT IT WAS NOT CHARGED TO OWNERS

Sandy-which building did you end up in at Crane? Did the AC work?
 

ctyatty

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ask for the bylaws or other LEGAL basis for junk fees

time to say no to being charged extra for something that is already paid for with MF, lets get a clearinghouse of these actions.

This is just what class action lawsuits are designed to remedy - getting ripped off for small amounts - a class can make this practical to go to court - individuals won't bother for a few dollars here and there.

The exchanger stands in the shoes of the owner - unless the bylaws say otherwise - just like those phony ROFR asserted by some cheating lying outfits.
 

BocaBum99

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I could not disagree more, these fees lessen the value for those who wish to trade what they OWN. Unless these fees are allowed in the by-laws, I don't see how a resort can charge any extra fees. Who is actually getting these fees? Sometimes the management is getting this revenue so it does not even benefit the HOA.

A TS is a bundle of rights, privileges and immunities established in the original documents. The management company and/or HOA don't get to just make it up as they go along. For example these so-called transfer fees - I objected twice with two different resorts - asked for a copy of the by-law allowing a fee for changing a name on a TS on the HOA books - they "waived" the fee but I suppose they are still collecting from the ignorant.

In mortgage lending these are called junk fees - as well they should be.

And exchange privileges are expressly NOT included in that bundle of rights. In ANY appraisal system for a timeshare, the exchange company affilation plays no factor in its value.

If you bought the timeshare to exchange, then that is a risk you took. If you didn't know that the exchange company is an independent product from what you purchased, then you didn't do your due diligence.

You can disagree, but you are not right.
 

BocaBum99

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time to say no to being charged extra for something that is already paid for with MF, lets get a clearinghouse of these actions.

This is just what class action lawsuits are designed to remedy - getting ripped off for small amounts - a class can make this practical to go to court - individuals won't bother for a few dollars here and there.

The exchanger stands in the shoes of the owner - unless the bylaws say otherwise - just like those phony ROFR asserted by some cheating lying outfits.

You are wrong again. Class action lawsuits for misinformed complaints such as yours are only for making attorneys rich.

The bottom line remains, if you don't like the exchange policies for a resort or exchange company, then you do not need to exchange.

If you bought to exchange and you don't like the policies, you bought unwisely.
 

BocaBum99

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Why not do something much more simple? Just dont exchange into a resort where you dont agree with the extra fee.

It's because some foolhardy owners BELIEVE that they are somehow partial owners of the exchange system and all the other resorts, too. So, they feel entitled to determine the rules that everyone should play by.

If they want to have such an exchange company, they should start one and try to enforce those rules. Their business acumen will then come into play and they will quickly learn that they have absolutely no say over this issue and resorts and their HOAs can do anything they want.
 

Sandy VDH

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Gee Sandy, sounds like we have already had this conversation one night!!

Sandy-which building did you end up in at Crane? Did the AC work?

I have not gone to the Crane yet, we are scheduled for a 1 BR in either building 3 or 4according to your point table. We will be there in March 2009.
 

littlestar

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It's because some foolhardy owners BELIEVE that they are somehow partial owners of the exchange system and all the other resorts, too. So, they feel entitled to determine the rules that everyone should play by.

If they want to have such an exchange company, they should start one and try to enforce those rules. Their business acumen will then come into play and they will quickly learn that they have absolutely no say over this issue and resorts and their HOAs can do anything they want.

Well said, Boca. :)
 

Lisa P

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Perhaps we need to ask the exchange companies to make it clear what is included in an exchange, and what is not.
I agree. II's Terms and Conditions, last section ("Fees"), paragraph 8 says:
Fees, if any, charged by Member Resorts for the use of amenities are determined and levied by each resort. Should the Member desire to use these amenities, such fees are the responsibility of the Member. These fees vary from resort to resort.
Use of the word "desire" indicates these are optional. If basic things, normally included in a simple motel room stay (ex., electricity, local telephone, pool use where a pool exists) are not optional, but rather incur a fee, it ought to be noted in advance. If a fee is not optional for one to stay there, it ought to be noted in advance as well. The only way to make an informed decision is if you know ahead. All-inclusive fees are disclosed. So should these "exchanger only" fees or excessive surcharges for basic "resort" amenities.
This is when you could fill out the review form that II asks for (and presumably RCI does too) and give them a low rating. If enough people do that, they'll soon see their "golden pinapple" turn into a gray one, or their gray one turn into a whole lot of nothing.
I've not been been inclined to do this in the past, if the resort experience was good overall. But I do understand it and we may start to do this. :shrug:

My evaluation of a hotel room stay or a restaurant dinner, for example, is definitely affected if I've paid more. I do expect better surroundings, better amenities, better service, a much better experience. Things that are cheerfully accepted at a diner will cause one to give a very poor review at the more expensive place. And if I'm paying nearly double the exchange fee expense (incl added fees) or more, to trade into one resort than another across town, I can see how that may legitimately impact the review, particularly where the fees are not the industry norm or the regional standard.
 

ctyatty

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I can let anyone use my TS w/o junk fees

You are wrong again. Class action lawsuits for misinformed complaints such as yours are only for making attorneys ric


The only way they get "rich" is by winning.

I can let Joe Smith use MY TS through an exchange company or I can let my Aunt Suzie use it just by showing up - management (unless the bylaws say otherwise) has no legal right to charge my guest extra fees to use MY TS.

My TS includes all of my rights, including the property right to sue.

Time and again developers, management and even some HOA try to snow people with junk fees and junk policies - don't fall for it regardless of what some regular board apologist types put out.
 

gmarine

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The only way they get "rich" is by winning.

I can let Joe Smith use MY TS through an exchange company or I can let my Aunt Suzie use it just by showing up - management (unless the bylaws say otherwise) has no legal right to charge my guest extra fees to use MY TS.

My TS includes all of my rights, including the property right to sue.

Time and again developers, management and even some HOA try to snow people with junk fees and junk policies - don't fall for it regardless of what some regular board apologist types put out.

When you use your timeshare to obtain an exchange you are no longer using YOUR timeshare. I think thats where you are confused. You gave all rights to your week to the exchange company and you now have to follow all the rules and pay the fees of the resort you have exchanged into.

You have to realize you dont own the exchange, and you have no rights as an owner when you do exchange. Your just another renter subject to any fees the resort imposes. Any additional fees should be disclosed at the time of exchange and at that time you are free to decline the exchange.
 

davesdog

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Why not do something much more simple? Just dont exchange into a resort where you dont agree with the extra fee.

Sometimes you don't get to pick between several locations, so you take what is available.

If the owners of resorts are OK with the extra fees their resorts are charging exchangers to keep the fees they pay lower. I have no problems running their costs up, to get more enjoyment out of my now more expensive exchange.

Filling out comment cards they probably wipe their butts with will not help much. What companies, and owners understand is dollars. If nobody takes an exchange, and the room just sets there empty, they make out even better!

Like a mobster shakedown, if they win by robbing you, they will only get worse! If their bottom like starts to sink, and they see their own expenses start to sky rocket. They may figure it out?
 

barndweller

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Any additional fees should be disclosed at the time of exchange and at that time you are free to decline the exchange.

I think this is the whole point of the original post. Extra fees imposed to an exchanger that an owner is exempt from is just plain crap. Additional fees charged to owners and exchangers are a crock as well because the MF should be covering expenses for the resort and not kept artificially low by leaving things like electricity and parking and pool maintenence out of the yearly fees. (And those damn occupancy taxes tacked on in Hawaii!)

This may be a trend and personally, I think it stinks. HOA should be setting the MF to maintain the resort for everyone to use, owners or their "stand-ins" alike. It certainly has nothing to do with any exchange company and only contributes to the ridiculous ratings that RCI and II assign. Those stars & crowns & golden pineapples really don't give you the whole story. It may be rated a Golden Starry Pineapple Fancy Shmancey Resort but if you end up spending a wad of money to exchange there you are getting the shaft.

I'd really appreciate a TUG list of any & all resorts that add on fees. I want and expect a ZERO balance when I check out.
 

gmarine

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I think this is the whole point of the original post. Extra fees imposed to an exchanger that an owner is exempt from is just plain crap. Additional fees charged to owners and exchangers are a crock as well because the MF should be covering expenses for the resort and not kept artificially low by leaving things like electricity and parking and pool maintenence out of the yearly fees. (And those damn occupancy taxes tacked on in Hawaii!)

This may be a trend and personally, I think it stinks. HOA should be setting the MF to maintain the resort for everyone to use, owners or their "stand-ins" alike. It certainly has nothing to do with any exchange company and only contributes to the ridiculous ratings that RCI and II assign. Those stars & crowns & golden pineapples really don't give you the whole story. It may be rated a Golden Starry Pineapple Fancy Shmancey Resort but if you end up spending a wad of money to exchange there you are getting the shaft.

I'd really appreciate a TUG list of any & all resorts that add on fees. I want and expect a ZERO balance when I check out.

Unfortunately extra fees are everywhere and anywhere, especially with regards to travel. They are not limited to timeshares.

Airlines, hotels and car rental agencies have all sorts of extra fees. Entire cities have extra fees only charged to hotel guests.

Everyone is free to avoid them. Dont use that airline,that hotel or visit that city.
 

taffy19

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(And those damn occupancy taxes tacked on in Hawaii!).
Not only Maui but other Islands are starting to charge these taxes too and also in some parts of CA. I know we have this in Laguna Beach for renters and exchangers at our timeshare and it goes to the City but not for the owners yet. Owners as well as renters or exchangers pay this tax in Maui even after timeshare owners have already paid their RE taxes in their maintenance fee.

There is nothing we can do but pay it or not own or go to these places. It will only get worse as Government always wants more money and now the airlines are starting too but they have a valid excuse or they would go under.

I still feel that exchangers should be treated as owners. Are friends or family of the owners charged these extra fees? I don't believe so as I have never heard this mentioned from our family or friends who used our timeshare in Maui.
 

barndweller

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None of the resorts I own charge extra fees. To owners or exchangers. All fees involved with a timeshare exchange should be covered by the MF the owner pays. Period.

I'm not talking about airline tickets or hotel rooms here. We are discussing the trading of time between an owner in one resort with the owner of another resort. Simple concept. And the HOA are making it less simple in order to avoid raising costs to the owners and making their resort less desirable to own. The exchange companies are totally avoiding the issue since it really is not their problem. They can continue to give ratings that are based on handshakes in the back-room with developers and ignore the cards sent in by exchangers.
 
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