[2/10/17 UPDATE] VSE charging for 3rd party reservation changes! [+Contact Info. for complaints]

[SMHarman]

Need to figure out the real life for us.

The deed is in Mrs SMH maiden name. Her passport is now changed

So do we need to retitle to avoid this fee for own use?

 

[DeniseM]

My driver's license said Denise (maiden name) (married name) - that might be an easy fix, and it's helpful in many situations where a woman may have accounts in her maiden name.

 

[mig1]

I wanted to add my rambling thoughts to this thread as I'm an owner at WKORV. I got the email a couple of days ago and even though I have never done a 3rd party booking and don't expect to, I immediately was outraged.

I picked up the phone and called OS to voice my displeasure. I asked the rep if she could explain what the "resources" were required to simply input a name other than the name of the owner on the deed? She couldn't answer the question as she explained those on the front lines (who have to deal with irate owners like us) had not been told what those resources were. Most likely because there aren't any---it's exactly what we all suspect. It's a money grab plain and simple.

She said that 3rd Party Bookings tend to take units out of the system that owners want to rent, and this was one way Vistana was attempting to control that. When I called BS on that because an occupant is an occupant whether renting or vacationing as an owner, she really didn't have a comeback.

After watching them tack on a $99 fee to bank, and a $129 fee (maybe it's $149) to convert options to star points this new fee just makes me sick. As I said to the rep on the phone.....these are all "clerical" functions. They cost ZERO to implement.

And....as I told her, when you go into the sales pitch, the staff sells you on how versatile the program is---how you can RENT, or BANK or CONVERT....so I asked, how does it BENEFIT me when I have to pay for all of these so called benefits? When you charge me, it ceases to be a benefit. Perhaps these resources are them asking me for my NAME, ADDRESS, ZIP CODE and EMAIL every single time I call. If you've ever had to call more than once in a day you know what a supreme hassle this is. Maybe those are the resources they are speaking of....because for the life of me I can't fathom what else they would be.

Then i asked if on the next email I get describing their contest where I can win resort credits or star points by simply giving them email addresses of the people I know who might be "interested" in their fabulous program.......how about if I charge them $100 for each potential lead? She got quiet in a big hurry.

I can tell you this......I don't typically go to the owner updates because I don't want to waste my time for a few thousand star points...I get enough traveling and converting over the course of a year anyway. But I'm going to start going....and I'm going to take their points, and when they are done with their presentation I'm going to tell them that until they decide to eliminate all of these worthless fees that are just there to drive revenue I wouldn't consider buying anything from the developer.

As I suggested to the OS Rep, why not take the 99, 59 and 129 fees and give owners the option to buy all 3 of them at a dramatically reduced price. Or...how about allowing immediate family members with the same last name to be on the reservation without cost? There are so many better solutions to this situation than simply sticking it to the owners again.

Escalating MF's, unnecessary charges for things that should be included etc.....for the first time in the 10 years I've owned....it makes me consider getting rid of this noose around my neck.

The rep also told me that there is a cost to banking and converting because banking ties up future inventory. But when I suggested that banking does not tie up actual inventory....it ties up theoretical inventory because nothing is truly tied up until a reservation is made. Moreover, there's probably a good percentage of owners who forget to even use their options before they expire. She had no comeback to that.....its almost as if the people manning the phones don't even believe in the product they have to support.

In so far as these being costs being standard in the industry, I have to call B*#!S?@t....I also own a Disney timeshare and it has NO cost for banking or borrowing or for 3rd party reservations.

If Vistana truly wants to get in on some of the money they claim is lost by 3rd party booking....then why not create a rental division and take a cut of the proceeds from the rental. If you want my money....then EARN it. This is simply flat out robbery.

I'm going to calm down and send Suzanne Clark an email......but if all i'm going to get in return is the same form letter that everyone else is getting I think I'll just engage with the general managers at the properties themselves and let them carry the message up the food chain.

As I said at the beginning, I don't believe I'd do a 3rd party booking; nonetheless, I find this whole situation reprehensible. I hope we can do something to reverse it!!

 

[JudyS]

I think you missed the point - this is simply a money grab by Vistana - there is no justification for adding a $59 fee.

If owners take this kind of larceny lying down, it just encourages Vistana to exploit owners even more.

Even if it doesn't impact you personally, what about the principle?

I agree with Denise. OK, maybe this $59 fee doesn't impact you. But what fee will VSE come up with next? A few for calling the reservations department? A fee for changing reservations (in addition to the fees already charged for last-minute changes to StarOptions reservations)? Housekeeping fees for stays of less than seven nights? It's great to be able to bank StarOptions, but the fees for that are really high. And, now this. Think about the huge number of fees Wyndham charges. VSE seems to be going down that route.

If the money went to the HOAs, that wouldn't be so bad. But, it's looks like this is just more money in VSE's pocket.

What are options other than writing emails? Maybe we can all buy a little stock in ILG and go to the shareholder's meetings and complain. Maybe owners can collectively buy a substantial amount of stock in ILG and get a real say. I know that a lot of people here spent big bucks on their VSE properties. Think about this as a way to protect your "investment."

Note: ILG has a market capitalization of $2.5 billion. There are close to 2 million members in II. I don't know how many VSE owners there are, but the original Sheraton Vistana Resort alone has about 100,000 weekly intervals. The big problem in buying any substantial part of ILG would be communicating with other VSE (and Hyatt) owners and II (and TPI and VRI) members.

 

[dioxide45]

As a 2BR unit owner at SVV, we pay a $43 Owner Services fee in our MF payment. Isn't that fee supposed to cover actually contacting Owner Services for things like this?

 

[sail27bill]

I paid the fee 2 days ago as I had a renter for my Harborside week this year. I was very upset since this is at best 60 seconds of their time. Which leads me to believe what exactly do our management fees and owner services fees pay for? Is this money being used to OFFSET the fees we pay, or is this now going to Vistana directly? And if my children want to come early, why should I have to pay the fee so they can be let in? This is absolutely ridiculous. I asked for a manager to call me back, as I was pretty irate, and they said it will take up to 2 business days. I can write, but now a 60 second call is going to result in a lot more time which could be spent elsewhere. I have owned for over 10 years multiple units, and am now questioning our decision. There is a point when enough is enough.

 

[rickandcindy23]

Should you ever deposit your week with an exchange company other than II or RCI, you will have to pay the fee for the exchanger. That is how it's done with Wyndham. So this will affect more of you than y'all might think right now. With Wyndham reservations I have deposited into SFX, I have had to pay the guest fee.

The impact is huge for us. I already own Shell, Wyndham and Worldmark, all of which fee us to death with HK and transaction fees.

Think of the people who don't really do anything but pay fees for their weeks. They don't use them, they leave them sit, and now to have a friend or family member use the week, they will pay.

This doesn't happen at independent resorts. I have a guest currently staying at Val Chatelle, and the management company was over-the-top nice about it, of course, because I own and pay their salaries with the five weeks we have there (plus I am on the board). There is no way they would charge us for a guest name. Vistana (terrible name, by the way) does this because they absolutely can. They have the power, owners do not.

Sadly, all of those who absolutely despise the salespeople the purchases they made will hate the company even more.

And honestly, this could be the beginning of additional charges that will affect everyone. Who can stop them.

I hope changing a name to a different name doesn't cost another fee. That is my concern right now. People do change their minds, and we give their money back, 100%, up to a certain date.

 

[undrpar64]

Should you ever deposit your week with an exchange company other than II or RCI, you will have to pay the fee for the exchanger. That is how it's done with Wyndham. So this will affect more of you than y'all might think right now. With Wyndham reservations I have deposited into SFX, I have had to pay the guest fee.

The impact is huge for us. I already Shell, Wyndham and Worldmark, all of which fee us to death with HK and transaction fees.

Think of the people who don't really do anything but pay fees for their weeks. They don't use them, they leave them sit, and now to have a friend or family member use the week, they will pay.

This doesn't happen at independent resorts. I have a guest currently staying at Val Chatelle, and the management company was over-the-top nice about it, of course, because I own and pay their salaries with the five weeks we have there (plus I am on the board). There is no way they would charge us for a guest name. Vistana (terrible name, by the way) does this because they absolutely can. They have the power, owners do not.

Sadly, all of those who absolutely despise the salespeople the purchases they made will hate the company even more.

And honestly, this could be the beginning of additional charges that will affect everyone. Who can stop them.

I hope changing a name to a different name doesn't cost another fee. That is my concern right now. People do change their minds, and we give their money back, 100%, up to a certain date.

 

[undrpar64]

For WKORV under Vacation Ownership Rules and Regulations

Guests. You may permit another person to occupy your Assigned Unit during your Use Period(s) without charge by


the Association subject to the following restrictions: (i) the maximum allowable occupancy limits may not be

exceeded, (ii) guests must observe the Check-In and Check-Out procedures If you intend for a person other than

yourself to use your Use Period or to accompany you during your Regular Use reservation, you must provide the

Managing Agent with the name and address of such person(s) in writing not less than three days prior to

commencement of the occupancy period. You will be responsible for all personal charges and/or damages to the

Unit you have occupied resulting from use by your guests. Persons under twenty-one (21) years of age must be

accompanied by you or a guest twenty-one (21) years of age or older. Additional rules and regulations governing

the recreational areas and the use of such areas by guests will be adopted by the Association and/or the Managing

Agent, and may be amended from time to time.

Holdover

les and Regulations of Ocean Resort Villas

 

[DeniseM]

GREAT find by undrpar64!


Per above post - it appears that the guest confirmation fee on home resort reservations violates the published rules:

Guests. You may permit another person to occupy your Assigned Unit during your Use Period(s) without charge

IMPORTANT - Owners at other resorts: Please log into your VSE Acct. and document the terms there for guests using your owned unit:

Log into your Vistana Acct
Go to the dashboard
Find the Owner Association Tab
Click on Governing Documents
Select VOI to view
Click on Association Info.
Click on Governing Documents
Scroll down to GUESTS

Please take a screen shot, before VSE can take down the info.

 

[The Haileys]

We were told (yeah I know) that first degree relatives could use our ownership weeks with or without us present. All we had to do was make the reservation, then call owner services to add their names, and verify the relationship.

Now there will be a charge for this, unless we check-in with them, to prior to?

And how would this work ... we're banking some of 2017 SOs to use in 2018, added to our ownerships, plus an explorer package, and maybe StarPoints, with the plan of reserving a combination of villas at SVV so we can have a week at Disney with out insanely huge clan of children (Nine!), their spouses/SigOs, and their children (TEN!) Since we'd only be occupying one villa, would we have to pay the fee for EACH villa occupied by our children? Or since we will be there, could we put all the ressies in our name?

(Yes, this is over a year away, but I am already stressing over it, nevermind the fee! LOL)

 

[The Haileys]

IMPORTANT - Owners at other resorts: Please log into your VSE Acct. and document the terms there for guests using your owned unit:

Log into your Vistana Acct
Go to the dashboard
Find the Owner Association Tab
Click on Governing Documents
Select VOI to view
Click on Association Info.
Click on Governing Documents
Scroll down to GUESTS

Please take a screen shot, before VSE can take down the info.

I'm downloading the entire document ...

 

[DeniseM]

Or since we will be there, could we put all the ressies in our name?

If YOU can personally check your guests in, you don't need to put the confirmation in their name - you can simply ADD their names at check-in.

 

[DeniseM]

WKORV-North has the same statement. If you are an owner at WKORV North or South - please immediately send an email to Suzanne Clark that includes this quote, even if you have already written a previous complaint.

Gentle suggestion: Don't be long winded - just include the statement and quote below for maximum impact:

VSE is in violation of the published Rules and Regulations:

Guests. You may permit another person to occupy your Assigned Unit during your Use Period(s) without charge by the Association subject to the following restrictions: (i) the maximum allowable occupancy limits may not be exceeded, (ii) guests must observe the Check-In and Check-Out procedures If you intend for a person other than yourself to use your Use Period or to accompany you during your Regular Use reservation, you must provide the Managing Agent with the name and address of such person(s) in writing not less than three days prior to commencement of the occupancy period. You will be responsible for all personal charges and/or damages to the Unit you have occupied resulting from use by your guests. Persons under twenty-one (21) years of age must be accompanied by you or a guest twenty-one (21) years of age or older. Additional rules and regulations governing the recreational areas and the use of such areas by guests will be adopted by the Association and/or the Managing Agent, and may be amended from time to time.

*How STUPID are these people that they didn't have their lawyers look at the published rules and regulations?

 

[Larry M]

This doesn't happen at independent resorts.

Right, it doesn't! This spring I called up Egrets Pointe and said "I'm letting my son use my deeded week 33 again. I can't remember what I have to do."

Their response: "What's his name?"

Me: "Daniel M___"

Them: "Okay, you're all set."

What more could you ask?

This is a great property by the way, about 20 townhome-style units on a Wyndham property with access to all the Wyndham amenities, but they are not Wyndham." They are independent--in fact the property office is about 2 miles off site.

 

[tschwa2]

As an FYI if you own a Wyndham deeded unconverted points week, they do not charge the Guest Cert Fee. They do charge for a GC on fixed converted weeks even when the home week is reserved.

 

[rickandcindy23]

I don't think the SBP rules and regs have that free guest thing in them. I looked briefly, but I am sitting at the lobby of the Hyatt Wild Oak Ranch in San Antonio, catching up on emails before heading to the airport.

 

[dioxide45]

WKORV-North has the same statement. If you are an owner at WKORV North or South - please immediately send an email to Suzanne Clark that includes this quote, even if you have already written a previous complaint.

Gentle suggestion: Don't be long winded - just include the statement and quote below for maximum impact:




*How STUPID are these people that they didn't have their lawyers look at the published rules and regulations?

I have found that the governing documents on the Vistana site actually contain multiple documents in one PDF.

For our SVV Bella ownership, this is what it includes:

1. Public Offering Statement (Pages 1 - 32). While this is a binding document and provides a lot of definitions and such, I think this document could be very easily changed by Vistana at any time they desire. To change these, I don't think a vote of the owners or board would be needed.
2. Condominium Documents-CC&R (Pages 33 - 174). These are the rules and regulations that for the resort you ow and are recorded at the county level. Changes to these documents would either require a vote by the board, or by the owners. Of course any changes require that 75% of the owners actually choose to vote, rather unlikely.
3. Exhibits to Public Offering Statement (Pages 175 - 214). Should be the same as the Public Offering Statement
4. Starwood Vacation Network Multi-site Offering Plan (Pages 215 - 277). This is what governs our use of the Vistana Signature Network. As we have seen in the past, Vistana is free to change this at will.
5. Interval International Buyers Guide (Pages 278 - 332). Legal documents of our use of II. Can be pretty much changed at will by Interval International.
6. Other (Pages 333 - 397) - Looks to be documents related to developer purchase, disclosures and explanations related to those that purchase their ownership using a loan or mortgage.

As long as the text you quoted is outlined in section 2, you have a real strong case against Vistana and the new fee. If it is in section 4, then the fee should only apply to guest certificates added to StarOption based reservations and they shouldn't be able to levy it against weeks based reservations.

Of course, it would seem that with Vistana controlling the boards at many of their resorts, I would think changes to 2 could be possible as long as it didn't require a vote of the ownership.

I sure hope that putting pressure on Vistana and contacting them regarding this causes them to rethink the new money grab.

 

[ferndale]

Letter sent!!! I find these fees extra annoying as we usually use one of our weeks each year to send a Make-A-Wish child to Maui. The maintenance fees already are ridiculous, now lets just add a bit more and a bit more!!! (plus add the fact that I had no idea about resale 15 years ago when we bought the first weeks straight from Starwood pre-construction!!).

ps - thank you to Denise and whoever else took the time to get all those contact infos!!!

 

[grgs]

The same language is in the Westin Kierland governing docs (p. 2):

Westin Lagunamar's docs also have this language (p. 339):

I tried to look up Sheraton Desert Oasis's docs, but when I click on the link it takes me to SVV-Amelia's instead.

 

[PamMo]

The resorts' governing documents clearly support that owners should be able to use, gift, or rent their deeded weeks without interference or additional charges from VSE.

Once you use StarOptions to exchange into another resort, VSE can write its own rules. SVN has always had, but never enforced, the existing rule that StarOption exchanges cannot be rented. VSE seems OK with members renting StarOption exchanges now, if they can get paid a Guest Fee.

 

[dsmrp]

I just checked our governing documents for Vistana Resort, Lakes and Spas. I thought the Spas R&R would have something more pertinent, but unfortunately both do not. Mine are more recent additions into SVN, so the documents used a 2014 template which included language that allows them to charge additional reservation fees at their sole discretion. My Spas document does contain one section on guest usage for home resort reservation period, but does not specify fees:

(3) Home Resort Reservation Period and Restrictions
(a) On receiving a reservation confirmation for a Vacation Period during the Home
Resort Reservation Period, an SVN Member may use the Vacation Period for personal use or for use by a guest

IMO the intent of the language above is for the owner to allow a guest use of their home resort week reserved during their priority reservation period. That is the point I will try to emphasize in my communications to Vistana, as I don't have much else to stand on.

I was glad to read that the WKORV/N documents give proof to the exception to Vistana's one-size-fits-all blanket fee rule. Owners with older purchases or older HOAs should check their governing docs, to find more locations that qualify as an exception. Most of us know that exceptions usually cost more to implement and lowers chances of success among a large number of people having to follow more complex rules. Especially by CS representatives who get minimal training....

 

[dsmrp]

I shall also point out that I bought into HGVC's system after my Vistana purchase, because their resale policies help maintain TS value unlike Vistana's, and so HGVC guest fees aren't as onerous to HGGV owners. Nickle and diming but still retaining TS value is to me, is better than $0 value and new fee after new fee....

 

[Markus]

It might be a technicality here folks. This fee is imposed by VSE, and not the owners association. The governing docs, which stipulate no fee or permitted usage refer to the owners association, and not VSE. Although a home resort reservation, VSE is now simply charging a fee for it.

I hope this is not the case legally, but it could be how they plan to get away with it.

Markus

 

[rickandcindy23]

There is a place in the SVN agreement for mandatory and voluntary Staroptions that says SVN has a right to charge new fees at any time. So really, their argument will be backed by that clause.