Sound familiar to anyone? Timeshare presentation lawsuit

[BocaBum99]

You really don't think it's possible to sell timeshares without resorting to lies and deception? I disagree. There is nothing inherently wrong with the product concept.

No, I didn't say that. I said that the timeshare industry relies on its current sales and marketing model which is to lure people into a sales presentation and close them hard while they are there. Without that model, I think the timeshare industry dies.

I actually believe that if resort developers knew of another model that would work better, they would actually pursue it.

 

[Pit]

No, I didn't say that. I said that the timeshare industry relies on its current sales and marketing model which is to lure people into a sales presentation and close them hard while they are there. Without that model, I think the timeshare industry dies.

I actually believe that if resort developers knew of another model that would work better, they would actually pursue it.

I don't know that anyone objects to that sales model. It's the lies and deception that don't belong here. You said that recording the sales presentation would kill the industry. Why? Because they would have to tell the truth?

 

[BocaBum99]

Wel then I guess its okay: "Mom, all my friends are doing it..."

I never said it was okay to lie. What I am saying is that if you create a law, it has to apply to all relevant parties, not just the ones you don't like. You can't single out people just because you don't like them. There's that darn thing called equal protection under the law.

 

[1950bing]

I have often wondered if timeshares were so great why there were no lines of people just dying to purchase them. There would be no need for hooks on the street and would not be loads of cheap plastic China junk to give away. No pressure cooker 90 min.???????? sale shows.
It should be as easy as buying a pair of shoes. Go in,look around walk out with or without a purchase. An honest sale. Wouldn't that be great!!!

 

[BocaBum99]

I don't know that anyone objects to that sales model. It's the lies and deception that don't belong here. You said that recording the sales presentation would kill the industry. Why? Because they would have to tell the truth?

It would kill the industry because a resort developer would do a business case and determine that the legal exposure would be too great to invest EVEN IF THEY WERE AN ETHICAL developer. Therefore, they won't. That would happen developer after developer until there were no more timeshare resort developers and the industry would be dead.

 

[BocaBum99]

I have often wondered if timeshares were so great why there were no lines of people just dying to purchase them. There would be no need for hooks on the street and would not be loads of cheap plastic China junk to give away. No pressure cooker 90 min.???????? sale shows.
It should be as easy as buying a pair of shoes. Go in,look around walk out with or without a purchase. An honest sale. Wouldn't that be great!!!

It's because the barrier to education is too high. There are tons of owners, many of whom are on this message board who think that timesharing is the greatest thing ever created.

Most of the owners who purchase from the developer are actually very happy with their ownerships as well.

It's those who need to sell with a big mortgage. Or, those who can't get it to work because they were told or they interpreted it to work a different way, who are the problem areas.

 

[TUGBrian]

There are plenty.

1) copier dealers
2) used cars
3) electronics
4) legal
5) lobbying / politics / community organizing

And, to a lesser degree, any high tech start up. There's less stigma because they aren't known yet. But, the lies and tales are far more creative and trumped up in high tech.

At the end of the day, we live in a free country where everyone has the right to be stupid. Unfortunately, businesses always emerge to capitalize on those who exercise that right.

For those of you who want to protect the consumer, try to apply your suggested regulations onto any of the above industries. See if they don't squeal like a greased pig when those rules are placed on them.

Rather than over regulating the industries, we need to educate the consumers to be more smart about what they do. That's the real solution.

only a few of your examples are acceptable comparisons that are selling a tangible product you would purchase and own.

and in all but the "startup" example, all provide some sort of warranty....or at least every copier, car, and electronic item ive purchased in the past 30 some odd years has.

 

[BocaBum99]

Here's my problem with all of your legal talk... for me, the issue comes down to whether you side with more constraints against the timeshare sales industry or not, and also whether they are justified in their tactics. It has somehow been hijacked into a legal debate.

You are obviously stating that you're ok with things the way they currently are. I respect that opinion and I've offered my side. Regardless of the way things are right now, it is possible that things can change in the future.

The following OP is what this thread is about. Brian posted the article and suggested that new legislation might come about because of it. The entire thread is exploring whether or not that is feasible and realistic. When we are discussing legislation, it's a bit tough to have a thoughtful discussion about the topic without exploring the law.

In addition, you are falsely assuming that I am siding with the developers. Rather, I am siding with the law and our system of free markets. I would love for the resort developers to be more honest, but we can't legislate that behavior. We can only set up reasonable laws that let the market players play their roles and accept their accountabilities as a participant. I think both the developers and the consumers are to blame for the current situation and both must reform their ways in order for meaningful change to occur.

We should prosecute developers who misrepresent their products and we should educate consumers to be scam resistant.

If there are timeshare sales presentations, there should be rescission periods and disclosures and watch dogs. Can it be better. Sure it can. It always can. It's just that all potential solutions must address all of the issues I am raising, not just the consumer ones.

http://www.courthousenews.com/2009/12/03/Timeshare_Was_a_Snow_Job_Man_Says.htm



perhaps this case will bring some new legislation on cancellation periods.

 

[ace2000]

The following OP is what this thread is about. Brian posted the article and suggested that new legislation might come about because of it. The entire thread is exploring whether or not that is feasible and realistic. When we are discussing legislation, it's a bit tough to have a thoughtful discussion about the topic without exploring the law.

In addition, you are falsely assuming that I am siding with the developers. Rather, I am siding with the law and our system of free markets. I would love for the resort developers to be more honest, but we can't legislate that behavior. We can only set up reasonable laws that let the market players play their roles and accept their accountabilities as a participant. I think both the developers and the consumers are to blame for the current situation and both must reform their ways in order for meaningful change to occur.

We should prosecute developers who misrepresent their products and we should educate consumers to be scam resistant.

If there are timeshare sales presentations, there should be rescission periods and disclosures and watch dogs. Can it be better. Sure it can. It always can. It's just that all potential solutions must address all of the issues I am raising, not just the consumer ones.

It's very difficult to figure out where you stand on all of this... so, let me try a different approach and just ask:

Are you in favor of anything being done at all about the current situation? Do you have any suggestions then?

There's been several recommendations discussed in this thread. Just curious...

 

[Pit]

I never said it was okay to lie. What I am saying is that if you create a law, it has to apply to all relevant parties, not just the ones you don't like. You can't single out people just because you don't like them. There's that darn thing called equal protection under the law.

Equal protection under the law does not mean that all legislation must apply to all entities. For example, Lemon Laws apply to car dealers, but not resort developers. A law requiring timeshare sales presentations to be recorded does not have to be applied to other industries (although there may be others where it should apply).

 

[Pit]

If there are timeshare sales presentations, there should be rescission periods and disclosures and watch dogs.

Some would call that over regulation. Yet, when those efforts prove to be insufficient, others would call for further steps to be taken, such as recording the sales pitch.

If developers were wise, they would take steps to address the problem of honesty in sales. Because if they don't, the laws will eventually change in unfriendly ways. The steps taken thus far are inadequate, because the problem is still rampant.

 

[ace2000]

It's very difficult to figure out where you stand on all of this... so, let me try a different approach and just ask:

Are you in favor of anything being done at all about the current situation? Do you have any suggestions then?

There's been several recommendations discussed in this thread. Just curious...

One more question for Boca... are you suggesting that just because a rule or a mandatory disclosure is not applicable to the car industry (as an example) that means that it cannot be enforced or ratified against the timeshare industry? Or are you saying it just wouldn't be fair???

 

[BocaBum99]

It's very difficult to figure out where you stand on all of this... so, let me try a different approach and just ask:

Are you in favor of anything being done at all about the current situation? Do you have any suggestions then?

There's been several recommendations discussed in this thread. Just curious...

Yes, I am in favor of any initiative targeted at educating the consumer against fraud and larger enforcement agencies who secret shop developers to make sure they are complying with the law. I would love for a new required curriculum in public schools that teaches kids how to be effective citizens in a free market capitalist society. It would teach them the basics of property rights, contracts, and how to prevent themselves from getting scammed amongst other things.

I like the idea of making rescission periods between 7-10 days, even up to 15 days in as many states as possible. I believe 3-5 days is too short and anything over 15 days is too long.

I would love to see developers record sales presentations, but I don't think it is reasonable to make it a statute. I'd love to see developers provide unconditional money back guarantees, but I wouldn't require it. I would encourage private business to create sites like TUG who compare developers in all types of metrics including how they sell. And, I would encourage and promote the BBB stamp of approval.

I don't believe that the government should attempt to legislate honesty. I think that honest and integrity are business competitive advantages. Rather, we as citizens should demand of each other that we accept accountability for the contracts we sign and what they mean.

 

[BocaBum99]

Some would call that over regulation. Yet, when those efforts prove to be insufficient, others would call for further steps to be taken, such as recording the sales pitch.

If developers were wise, they would take steps to address the problem of honesty in sales. Because if they don't, the laws will eventually change in unfriendly ways. The steps taken thus far are inadequate, because the problem is still rampant.

I'm not saying that nothing should be done. I am saying that mandatory recording of sales presentations will NEVER be a STATUTE. I've argued why I believe it will never be law. And, I am willing to make any wager for any length of time that I am right. Are there any takers?

Developers have taken tremendous strides in honesty in sales over the past 30 years. I don't see how anyone can deny that. The problem is that the timeshare sales presentation brings out the worst in everyone. And, I believe it is a necessary evil. I hope that someone comes up with a sales and marketing model that works better. I'm just not holding my breath.

 

[BocaBum99]

One more question for Boca... are you suggesting that just because a rule or a mandatory disclosure is not applicable to the car industry (as an example) that means that it cannot be enforced or ratified against the timeshare industry? Or are you saying it just wouldn't be fair???

I am not against mandatory disclosures. I am for them. There are many today. There could be more. I said above that if there are timeshare sales presentations, there should be rescission periods, mandatory disclosures and watch dogs.

 

[ace2000]

Yes, I am in favor of any initiative targeted at educating the consumer against fraud and larger enforcement agencies who secret shop developers to make sure they are complying with the law. I would love for a new required curriculum in public schools that teaches kids how to be effective citizens in a free market capitalist society. It would teach them the basics of property rights, contracts, and how to prevent themselves from getting scammed amongst other things.

I like the idea of making rescission periods between 7-10 days, even up to 15 days in as many states as possible. I believe 3-5 days is too short and anything over 15 days is too long.

I would love to see developers record sales presentations, but I don't think it is reasonable to make it a statute. I'd love to see developers provide unconditional money back guarantees, but I wouldn't require it. I would encourage private business to create sites like TUG who compare developers in all types of metrics including how they sell. And, I would encourage and promote the BBB stamp of approval.

I don't believe that the government should attempt to legislate honesty. I think that honest and integrity are business competitive advantages. Rather, we as citizens should demand of each other that we accept accountability for the contracts we sign and what they mean.

LOL - Alrighty then, looks like we've been on the same page the whole time! Brian, it's time to lock the thread now!!!

:hysterical:

 

[bnoble]

Well then I guess its okay: "Mom, all my friends are doing it..."

I didn't read it as approval. I read it as acceptance---not as in "I accept that this is good", but as in "I accept that this is inevitable."

Sales is, at its core, always at least a little bit adversarial. There are lots of things you can spend your money on. And, while the thing I have is great, you may have other great things in mind too. So, unless a buyer is post-economic---they have more money than they could ever possibly spend on things they want---the question is always: "Is this worth my money, or should I spend it elsewhere instead."

The seller's job is to convince you that yes, yes it is. They are going to highlight the advantages. They are not going to highlight disadvantages. They are not going to spend a lot of time talking about limitations. That leads to three different sorts of "untruths".

* The lie of omission. There's some limitation or downside, but I fail to mention it. Neglecting to mention that special assessments are possible, for example.

* The "leading lie." I tell you something that is correct if construed one way, but is commonly construed in another way more favorable to the seller. "Sure you can book the 4th if you own Platinum time" is a fine example of that---it's technically true, you *can*, but it's not necessarily likely to happen.

* The outright incorrect falsehood. The examples here are pretty egregious. The most famous is probably the Mexico tactic of getting you to "sign away your rescind period" when in fact you can do no such thing.

The kicker is that *most* of the stuff people point to as "lies" are omissions or leading lies. Those are unlikey to kill a deal even if they were caught on tape, because---technically---the sales person never actually said anything that wasn't true. It's only the flat-out falsehoods that will kill a deal, and while they are a problem, they are probably not the biggest problem.

 

[dioxide45]

I agree with bnoble's response. We were never flat out lied to (well in some cases about resale purchasers rights we were) but most were just leading lies.

"You can resell the week for whatever you want" - Sure you can try, but it is very unlikely that you will get what you paid, which is what is somewhat implied.

"You can book any week you want" - You can, but as some people at places like Marriott's Newport Coast find out, it isn't always likely that you will be able to get that super high prime week in that long platinum season with lots of owners vying for only a few prime weeks.

"You can exchange in to anything you want" - We all know this is far from the truth. You can try, but it isn't always likely to happen.

"The developer will buy back the week or resell it for you" - Sure they will, only when the resort is sold out and you will be at the end of a long waiting list.

 

[Fredm]

Ever buy an insurance policy?

It's the fine print, exclusions, exemptions, riders, riders on the riders, etc, etc, that always manage to deny you what you think you are paying for.

How about a mutual fund? Read the prospectus? Understand it?

There are numerous examples of the written word parting people from their money in ways they did not expect.

Consumer protection laws, State Insurance Commissions, SEC Regulations, exist in the same way that State Departments of Real Estate do.

Timeshare developers are also licensed real estate brokers.
Sales reps are licensed agents employed by the broker.
Willful misrepresentation is a crime.

Despite extensive written disclosures, acknowledged (initialed) by the buyer, many consumers feel victimized when they discover that the disclosures were in fact true!

There is no question whatsoever that timeshare buyers are oftentimes intentionally misled in a verbal presentation. Most often it takes the form of representing the hypothetically possible as routinely doable.

The suggestions here for additional laws to protect buyers won't accomplish their intended purpose, IMHO.
The law that will likely emerge is the law of unintended consequences.

Video taping? On the surface it sounds great. Use the thief to catch the thief.
Oh, really?
I urge those who advocate this approach to consider several practical matters. Not the least of which is to realize that a timeshare presentation is the highest form of the sales art in existence, bar none. It is not a fly by night, crude, and bungling process. Don't let the image fool you.
The only thing it will accomplish is take away any claim the consumer could otherwise hope to have.

Don't believe it?
Once video recording is introduced, the presentation will tailor itself to it.
It also creates its own opportunity for abuse. How would you like to have your "private" deliberations being viewed by the closer?

Also, words mean things when a complaint is filed.
The following makes my point.

Branded timeshares ALWAYS include in their pitch something like: "the only way you can take advantage of all the features, and receive all the value potential our product has to offer, is to buy it directly from us".

The statement is made, and received, as a benefit. Most assume it is made to distinguish it from a resale. To give the buyer a reason to purchase from the developer.

But timeshare presentations are more sophisticated than that.
It is actually a disclosure that says the buyer cannot sell what they bought. Yet, buyers do not hear that part.
Want to sell a negative? State it as a positive.

Anyway, you get the idea. You don't want presentations recorded.

Real misrepresentations have remedy in existing law.
Buyers can and should become better informed consumers.
Adequate protections already exist for backing out of a high pressure sale, made under duress. A 7-10 day cooling off period is plenty for those who are simply uneasy with their decision for no specific reason.

 

[richardm]

My favorite line from this entire discussion!

At the end of the day, we live in a free country where everyone has the right to be stupid. Unfortunately, businesses always emerge to capitalize on those who exercise that right.

Amen! This should be written on the chalkboard of every high school in the country....

 

[davidvel]

I don't believe that the government should attempt to legislate honesty.

The problem with this statement is that they already do, it's called fraud. What people are talking about here is a discussion of means to enforce those existing prohibitions in a situation where the developer controls all of the process: ie., time, place, presentation, pressure, etc.

It is easy to say "people should do their research," but timeshare governing documents are some of the most complicated legal documents out there. I have people (well educated attorneys) consult with me all the time because they can't make heads or tails about all the legal mumbo-jumbo. There are lots of well-educated people on these boards who still don't understand the legal ramifications of the TS after reading thousands of posts explaining it. It doesn't help if the salesman lies about resale purchases or the benefits of the product (Omissions of material facts are considered fraud as well.)

Sure people should "beware" but the laws recognize that very often consumers are at a significant disadvantage in terms of knowledge, etc. There are lots of well educated, thinking people who are taken advantage of on a daily basis. If "smart" people can't understand what there getting into, what about the less educated? Some may simply ignore this reality or blame them for it, saying too bad, you should be smarter; others don't subscribe to this.

 

[northshore 8686]

Would my perspective help?

I am new to the site, but not new to timeshare. I have owned timeshare weeks for almost the last ten years.

I liked it so much, that I just started working as a salesman about a month and half ago. I can tell you that my company has a very strict policy to properly represent it.

 

[jmroncamano]

Good deal or bad deal?

Something I learned a long time ago is if the offer is good for today only pass on it. Most honest sellers will make a offer that you can come back to after a reasonable time. You then have the time to research and make your decision. If the item has sold then too bad for you, if not you can buy it knowing you got what you wanted. Timeshare sales will not give you that choice so you can do it by saying NO and sticking with it and telling them you are going to research first then make a decision.
In a dream world they would make the presentation and then point you to a computer and tell you to check them out on TUG.

 

[dioxide45]

Something I learned a long time ago is if the offer is good for today only pass on it. Most honest sellers will make a offer that you can come back to after a reasonable time. You then have the time to research and make your decision. If the item has sold then too bad for you, if not you can buy it knowing you got what you wanted. Timeshare sales will not give you that choice so you can do it by saying NO and sticking with it and telling them you are going to research first then make a decision.
In a dream world they would make the presentation and then point you to a computer and tell you to check them out on TUG.

What they say and what is reality is different. Many sales reps will say the deal is good for today only, but it is very likely that if you call back next week they will give you the same great offer. So while they say the deal is for "today only" that is very often not the case.

 

[davidvel]

What they say and what is reality is different. Many sales reps will say the deal is good for today only, but it is very likely that if you call back next week they will give you the same great offer. So while they say the deal is for "today only" that is very often not the case.

The funny part is when you ask them "Why wouldn't you give me the same deal tomorrow?" and they respond "Well the unit may not be available, they are selling like hot cakes." :rofl: Or, "we can't do that because then we would be lying when we tell you 'its only good today'." How noble of them.

I am sure if you went back to the sales office and asked for your salesman saying you wanted to purchase he would say, "ok, great but I have to charge you a penny more." :hysterical: