Sound familiar to anyone? Timeshare presentation lawsuit

[TUGBrian]

http://www.courthousenews.com/2009/12/03/Timeshare_Was_a_Snow_Job_Man_Says.htm

BALTIMORE (CN) - Wyndham Vacation Resorts defrauded a man of thousands of dollars by offering him two free nights in Branson, Mo., then subjecting him to a 4-hour sales pitch that pressured him into buying a timeshare for $47,000, the man claims in City Court.

perhaps this case will bring some new legislation on cancellation periods.

 

[BocaBum99]

http://www.courthousenews.com/2009/12/03/Timeshare_Was_a_Snow_Job_Man_Says.htm



perhaps this case will bring some new legislation on cancellation periods.

Or force people to be accountable for their own decisions and due diligence. Most rescission periods are fine. If a new owner doesn't do any research after making a $47k purchase, it really is their fault if the timeshare doesn't turn out the way they hoped.

 

[TUGBrian]

Or force people to be accountable for their own decisions and due diligence. Most rescission periods are fine. If a new owner doesn't do any research after making a $47k purchase, it really is their fault if the timeshare doesn't turn out the way they hoped.

IMO 7 days is not long enough for an item such as this.

but thats just me.

 

[1950bing]

Or force people to be accountable for their own decisions and due diligence. Most rescission periods are fine. If a new owner doesn't do any research after making a $47k purchase, it really is their fault if the timeshare doesn't turn out the way they hoped.

Some people can withstand the pressure and others fold just to get out.
It is buyer beware at t/s sales. Timeshare salespeople should be ashamed of what they put people through to seperate them from their money.
MAKE THAT SALE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Stefa]

Or force people to be accountable for their own decisions and due diligence. Most rescission periods are fine. If a new owner doesn't do any research after making a $47k purchase, it really is their fault if the timeshare doesn't turn out the way they hoped.

I agree people should be held accountable for their decisions and actions. Timeshare salespeople should be held accountable for browbeating vacationers into buying something they either don't want or don't need or don't understand. Timeshare developers should be held accountable for hiring the salespeople. Rescission periods are there to do just that and I think they should be extended to 30 days.

 

[BocaBum99]

I agree people should be held accountable for their decisions and actions. Timeshare salespeople should be held accountable for browbeating vacationers into buying something they either don't want or don't need or don't understand. Timeshare developers should be held accountable for hiring the salespeople. Rescission periods are there to do just that and I think they should be extended to 30 days.

I don't think they should be extended beyond what is available for condos and other real estate transactions.

I think that 3-5 days is too short as it is in many states. 7-10 days is plenty long enough to do due diligence today. 15 days should be the outside limit.
Same as Condos.

 

[Talent312]

Some people can withstand the pressure and others fold just to get out.

Whenever I encounter high-pressure tactics, I push back.
The more intense the pressure, the more I push back.
"Just say no" becomes, "Over my dead body, and then no."

 

[vkhome]

Part of the problem is that TS sales presentations are typically attended during a vacation week; while there is email and phone contact to a "home town" lawyer, it is often difficult to get another set of trusting eyes to review the actual paperwork. But, it is true, that if large sums of money are involved, the buyer needs to be responsibly vigilant and careful prior to committing that kind of money.

 

[Stefa]

I don't think they should be extended beyond what is available for condos and other real estate transactions.

I think that 3-5 days is too short as it is in many states. 7-10 days is plenty long enough to do due diligence today. 15 days should be the outside limit.
Same as Condos.

I disagree for two reasons:

Timeshares are different from other real estate because they depreciate immediately upon sale. While some of the better resorts may gain value over time and may at some point be sold for more than the buyer paid, most will never approach that value.

Timeshares are also impulse buys which is rarely the case for condos and other real estate. I have never known anyone who purchased a home, condo or other real estate (such as investment property or a vacation home) without doing their due diligence first.

I have never purchased a developer timeshare because I am one of the lucky ones who found TUG first. I have, however, been to a timeshare presentation that was full of lies that would have been difficult for me to verify within 7 days had I not done my due diligence first. Fortunately, I knew at the time that the salesman was full of garbage.

 

[BocaBum99]

I disagree for two reasons:

Timeshares are different from other real estate because they depreciate immediately upon sale. While some of the better resorts may gain value over time and may at some point be sold for more than the buyer paid, most will never approach that value.

Timeshares are also impulse buys which is rarely the case for condos and other real estate. I have never known anyone who purchased a home, condo or other real estate (such as investment property or a vacation home) without doing their due diligence first.

I have never purchased a developer timeshare because I am one of the lucky ones who found TUG first. I have, however, been to a timeshare presentation that was full of lies that would have been difficult for me to verify within 7 days had I not done my due diligence first. Fortunately, I knew at the time that the salesman was full of garbage.

So cars should have 30 day rescission periods, too? Your logic won't sway any lawmakers anywhere. The bottom line is that 7-10 days is plenty of time for any diligent buyer to go to a PC and type "timeshare resale" into google or to call their attorney.

 

[Stefa]

So cars should have 30 day rescission periods, too? Your logic won't sway any lawmakers anywhere. The bottom line is that 7-10 days is plenty of time for any diligent buyer to go to a PC and type "timeshare resale" into google or to call their attorney.

I never said anything about a rescission period for cars. My point about depreciation was an example of why and how timeshares should be treated differently than condos. Furthermore, it is a well-known and understood fact that cars depreciate and car salesmen don't pretend otherwise.

Although cars can certainly be more of an impulse buy, most people do their due diligence first and understand what they are buying. Unlike cars, condos, or homes, timeshares are a mystery to many people.

As for my logic swaying lawmakers, I have impressed the same number of lawmakers as you today. Zero. I am only stating my opinion and you are stating yours.

 

[TUGBrian]

So cars should have 30 day rescission periods, too? Your logic won't sway any lawmakers anywhere. The bottom line is that 7-10 days is plenty of time for any diligent buyer to go to a PC and type "timeshare resale" into google or to call their attorney.

If I dont pick up or use the car until next month, then I see no reason not to have a 30 day return policy for a vehicle that has never actually been taken posession of or used by the owner.

 

[MuranoJo]

The challenge is, most of these sales presentations are arranged early upon arrival--within the first day or two I believe. In 7 days while at the resort, if they haven't quickly gotten to investigations or due diligence while on vacation, their time is almost out by the time they get back home (based on those who are at the resort the full week).

 

[BocaBum99]

I never said anything about a rescission period for cars. My point about depreciation was an example of why and how timeshares should be treated differently than condos. Furthermore, it is a well-known and understood fact that cars depreciate and car salesmen don't pretend otherwise.

Although cars can certainly be more of an impulse buy, most people do their due diligence first and understand what they are buying. Unlike cars, condos, or homes, timeshares are a mystery to many people.

As for my logic swaying lawmakers, I have impressed the same number of lawmakers as you today. Zero. I am only stating my opinion and you are stating yours.

7-10 days is enough. I don't need to sway any lawmakers. Most lawmakers agree with me. That's why the laws are as they are. A 30-day rescission period imposed by the government is a ludicrous amount of time for a buyer to be able to cancel an agreement for any reason. If a business wants to provide such a guarantee, that's fine. The bottom line remains that 7-10 days is plenty of time for any buyer to perform simple due diligence and decide to cancel.

 

[BocaBum99]

If I dont pick up or use the car until next month, then I see no reason not to have a 30 day return policy for a vehicle that has never actually been taken posession of or used by the owner.

Sure, if the business agrees to that policy, it's fine. What I am against is when government imposes such a law on every business.

In a free, capitalist society, people need to be accountable for their own decisions. In certain situations, there should be cooling off periods for contracts. 7-10 days is more than reasonable for virtually ANY business transaction. 15-days at the latest. If due diligence takes longer, then there should be contingencies built into an agreement.

There really isn't any reasonable argument for why it needs to be longer for a consumer transaction. If a consumer refuses to do their homework, it's really their fault. Not the developers.

 

[Stefa]

7-10 days is enough. I don't need to sway any lawmakers. Most lawmakers agree with me. That's why the laws are as they are. A 30-day rescission period imposed by the government is a ludicrous amount of time for a buyer to be able to cancel an agreement for any reason. If a business wants to provide such a guarantee, that's fine. The bottom line remains that 7-10 days is plenty of time for any buyer to perform simple due diligence and decide to cancel.

Boca

Most lawmakers have no idea what the law says and have little understanding of how timeshares work. They get their information from lobbyists. The fact that the law is 7-10 days does not make your argument that it shouldn't be changed correct

Unlike with other consumer purchases, there is no well-known authority for consumers to turn to for information about timeshares. You said in an earlier post to type in "timeshare resale" into google. That brings up a bunch of upfront fee companies like sellmytimesharenow and timesharesonly that have poor BBB ratings. Marriott, on the other hand, has a BBB rating of "A."

As I said before, I agree that people should be held accountable for their decisions. I just happen to believe that accountability should go both ways.

 

[Stefa]

15-days at the latest.

I knew you were a softy deep down!

I could go for 15. I'd still like it to be longer because I think it is harder to do due diligence on a timeshare than on most other purchases. I really feel 7 days is too short since many folks don't get home from vacation and have a chance to "cool off' before the rescission period expires.

 

[BocaBum99]

Boca

Most lawmakers have no idea what the law says and have little understanding of how timeshares work. They get their information from lobbyists. The fact that the law is 7-10 days does not make your argument that it shouldn't be changed correct

Unlike with other consumer purchases, there is no well-known authority for consumers to turn to for information about timeshares. You said in an earlier post to type in "timeshare resale" into google. That brings up a bunch of upfront fee companies like sellmytimesharenow and timesharesonly that have poor BBB ratings. Marriott, on the other hand, has a BBB rating of "A."

As I said before, I agree that people should be held accountable for their decisions. I just happen to believe that accountability should go both ways.

Basically, what you are suggesting is a consumer have an irrevocable right to rescind a contract that last 30-days. The reason that is a ludicrous amount is that the developer must hold onto that inventory and NOT be able to sell it while the consumer decides whether they really want it or not.

Typically, in a standard real estate transaction, the buyer can introduce all types of contingencies on a contract. However, if another buyer comes along who agrees to the terms of the contract without the contingencies, then they can take over that deal. When there is an irrevocable right to rescind, that doesn't exist.

What you are arguing is that the consumer isn't educated enough to make that purchase. If they aren't educated, then the decision for the lawmakers is

1) do they attempt to protect the consumer against themselves?
2) do they give them a reasonable amount of time to balance the buyer's needs (time for due diligence) AND the seller's needs (holding inventory)
3) require buyers to have licenses where they are certified to have a certain amount of knowledge before they can make a purchase.

Number 1 is against the principle of the a free, capitalist society. Caveat Emptor.

Number 3 has been ruled out since it is a consumer product. Why require someone to prove they are competent or an expert in timesharing prior to making a consumer purchase?

Sure, a timeshare is complex, but so are lots of consumer products. A home network is a good example. Much more complicated than a timeshare and people can walk into a store and buy one without a rescission period.

Is pricing an issue? What about artwork? Should consumers have a 30 day rescission period on a piece of art? There is almost no way for them to determine if the art they are buying is worth what they are paying. Much harder to determine than for a timeshare.

Number 2 is the best compromise given for a relatively complex real estate product for the consumer. 7-10 days gives the consumer plenty of time to determine if they want to stay with their purchase or cancel because it is way over their head. Rescission means cancel and agreement for any reason.

I am all for product warranties or contingencies such as those for loans. What is important for lawmakers is NOT whether or not they know anything about any specific products, but that they apply laws consistently across types of buyers, sellers and products so that everyone has equal protection under the law. The includes the buyers AND the sellers.

 

[BocaBum99]

I knew you were a softy deep down!

I could go for 15. I'd still like it to be longer because I think it is harder to do due diligence on a timeshare than on most other purchases. I really feel 7 days is too short since many folks don't get home from vacation and have a chance to "cool off' before the rescission period expires.

If they don't know what they are buying, then they shouldn't buy it. It's really as simple as that. It's not the government's role to tell them if they have sufficient knowledge to make that free choice.

If at any time, the consumer decides it's too complicated, or they are over their head, they can cancel within the 7-10 day period. They can always go back and try to get another deal once they feel they are more educated.

I would argue that a consumer should spend 6 months studying timesharing before they should even consider purchasing a timeshare. Then, your 30-days should be extended to 6 months. After 30-days, they still are clueless about what they are buying. Guess what, the same is true if someone is buying a condo or a house. There are tons of property laws that most home owners are actually clueless about. Should we give them 30-days right to rescind as well? I think not.

 

[TUGBrian]

and 7 to 10 days would be perfectly acceptable if the owner didnt have to discover for themselves that much of what was mentioned in the sales presentation was misleading...or an outright lie.

these issues are not uncovered until much later in the process, and at that point it comes down to "what you signed".

as in with many cases, it would take a team of lawyers with a 2nd team on standby to fully read and comprehend in detail what is included in a current timeshare contract.

Could you blame the consumer for blindly signing something they didnt understand...sure...but they are ALWAYS left on the hook in a court of law...while misleading sales tactics always fall under the realm of "well if it was just said vs written in your contract...you are just out of luck".

That IMO, places 100% of the burden on the customer, which should never be the case in any transaction.

 

[teepeeca]

If people are "smart enough" to sign a contract, then they should be "smart enough" to READ, and UNDERSTAND what they have signed. What happened to "personal responsibility"???

Do we "really" need laws to "protect ourselves" from the contract that we "signed, AND, understood" ??? If you don't understand the contract, then DON"T SIGN IT !!!! It is that simple (in my mind).

Sure, some people are "not quite that smart", BUT, that is their fault, not our fault. It sort of reminds me of "new ads on the radio/television" that say that if you have so much credit card debt, "they" can help you, and reduce the amount owed. WHY should anybody help you reduce your cc debt??? YOU bought the items, and charged them. It is YOUR responsibility, just as buying a timeshare is YOUR responsibilty !!!

Tony

 

[TUGBrian]

If people are "smart enough" to sign a contract, then they should be "smart enough" to READ, and UNDERSTAND what they have signed. What happened to "personal responsibility"???

Do we "really" need laws to "protect ourselves" from the contract that we "signed, AND, understood" ??? If you don't understand the contract, then DON"T SIGN IT !!!! It is that simple (in my mind).

Sure, some people are "not quite that smart", BUT, that is their fault, not our fault. It sort of reminds me of "new ads on the radio/television" that say that if you have so much credit card debt, "they" can help you, and reduce the amount owed. WHY should anybody help you reduce your cc debt??? YOU bought the items, and charged them. It is YOUR responsibility, just as buying a timeshare is YOUR responsibilty !!!

Tony

I dont disagree, but if your product is as claimed...there is no reason to mislead or lie to someone about it during the sales presentation.

Also, if you are selling someone a product for life, the cancellation period should be a null issue anyway as retention is the goal.

Back to the car analogy...the car could be perfect in every way...exactly what you were looking for on the lot.

Then you get it home and find out it only runs on weekdays, only makes left hand turns, and wont run on one way streets without stalling.

All of these items were mentioned in the contract in fine print and legalese, but certainly not mentioned or completely dismissed during the sales presentation.

Given these facts, you can be sure someone would most certainly change their mind about a product they were sold as one thing, but they certainly did not recieve what they were told they did...despite what the "contract" says.

that said, should someone be required to read every line of the sales contract, that could very well easily take more than 7 days in itself...and thusly the cancellation period should be extended.

 

[ace2000]

Ok, I'll go along with the car analogy here.

The current timeshare industry is similar to buying a car from a dealer and finding out after-the-fact that the they failed to disclose that your 2007 Toyota Camry purchase actually had the engine replaced with a 1998 Ford Taurus engine.

The timeshare sales industry is a pack of lies and half-truths. How anyone here can support that is way beyond my comprehension.

I agree with Brian on this one... whatever can be done to protect the consumer would be beneficial.

 

[charford]

Ok, I'll go along with the car analogy here.

The current timeshare industry is similar to buying a car from a dealer and finding out after-the-fact that the they failed to disclose that your 2007 Toyota Camry purchase actually had the engine replaced with a 1998 Ford Taurus engine.

And they say that it can be traded in for a BMW anytime. :hysterical:

 

[timeos2]

Even a law firm takes weeks

If people are "smart enough" to sign a contract, then they should be "smart enough" to READ, and UNDERSTAND what they have signed. What happened to "personal responsibility"???

Do we "really" need laws to "protect ourselves" from the contract that we "signed, AND, understood" ??? If you don't understand the contract, then DON"T SIGN IT !!!! It is that simple (in my mind).

Sure, some people are "not quite that smart", BUT, that is their fault, not our fault. It sort of reminds me of "new ads on the radio/television" that say that if you have so much credit card debt, "they" can help you, and reduce the amount owed. WHY should anybody help you reduce your cc debt??? YOU bought the items, and charged them. It is YOUR responsibility, just as buying a timeshare is YOUR responsibilty !!!

The 400+/- pages of documents you agree to and that forms the contract is not interpretable by the vast majority of buyers. Back in 2000 when one of our resorts fought to remove the developer as management simply getting a law firm to read and interpret the governing documents - the same one each buyer was expected to digest and understand in hours or at most 7 days - took weeks and thousands of dollars in billable hours. No, the right to rescind shouldn't be unlimited or even 30 days IMO but 7 days is far too little for a new buyer, flush with dreams fueled by a misleading sales pitch to uncover the truth about what they bought. How many don't even realize that the purchase cost actually got them nothing except the right to visit or use the property once each year (or EOY or every 3rd year) and the obligation to pay fees that can't even be identified for certain until those rights are sold or given away at some future time? They don't even know they should be looking at how it all works as they "already know" from the slick and usually deceptive sales presentation. Even the "best" stretch the truth and the worst are borderline criminal.

The whole process is tilted toward keeping the buyer in the dark as long as possible, so when the facts emerge its too late for them to back out. If the days are to be limited to 10-15 (and no less) then there is a serious need for far more complete disclosure to be prominently discussed in detail prior to finalization of the deal. If not - and it would be tough to get sellers to admit that the true cost is still ahead or the existence of a much lower cost resale option and maintain a sale at 10+ times that figure - so instead the time to back out needs to allow the buyer time to discover things aren't as painted so carefully at the pitch.

If the product and price can't hold up to an extended review then it is bogus to begin with. It's that truth that is the real reason no developer wants a longer rescind period. Sell a viable product at a reasonable price with a robust resale market to support it (ie the car market as an example) and no unwieldy rescind period is required. Build a house of cards on misrepresentations and any chance to get out will be utilized by your customers and deservedly so.