Wyndham is closing a handful of legacy resorts - dedicated chart/tracker located in the first post for this unfolding set of events

[dioxide45]

Really?? That two-line except you cropped in the middle of a sentence demonstrates that Wyndham Vacation Ownership owns the deeds in CWA? When earlier on the same page I posted a larger excerpt that contains the full sentence that finishes by saying that the real estate interests owned by WVR are then deeded to the CWA trust. The CWA trust owns the deeds.
View attachment 118823

I recall the teeth gnashing a while ago on this where there was dispute with the term "CWA Trust" being used. Then it did come about that it is called the "ClubWyndam Access Vacation Ownership Plan Trust". Just about as close to "CWA Trust" as one can get.

Edited to add: I would suspect many UDI are setup in a similar way. CWA is really just a large UDI. But those properties with their own UDI likely have a land trust setup either in the state where the property is or in Delaware. I believe resort UDIs are deeded though. Can someone who owns a resort specific UDI check their deed to see what county it is recorded in and what the name of the trust is?

 

[CO skier]

Really?? That two-line except you cropped in the middle of a sentence demonstrates that Wyndham Vacation Ownership owns the deeds in CWA?

Yes. Absolutely. No question. It is there in black and white.

What do you think it means?

First American Trust holds the WVO owned deeds in trust for CWA.

This is not rocket science.

Any CWA owner should be able to ask this question of Wyndham, if it is not spelled out in some CWA document.

I am a resale CWA owner, so have no knowledge of the original documentation, and do not care. I get what I want from my CWA ownership at 13 months, sometimes less than 13 months.

 

[dioxide45]

First American Trust holds the WVO owned deeds in trust for CWA.

But the deeds aren’t WVO owned. The deeds are owned by the trust. A separate legal entity.

 

[CO skier]

But the deeds aren’t WVO owned. The deeds are owned by the trust. A separate legal entity.

NO! The First American trust is only a trust for the deeds owned by Wyndham Vacation Ownership.

Please cite where you get otherwise.

 

[dioxide45]

NO! The First American trust is only a trust for the deeds owned by Wyndham Vacation Ownership.

Please cite where you get otherwise.

The ownerships are being deeded TO the "Trust".

The deeds are no longer directly owned by WVR. On the deeds, the grantor would be WVR or another entity and the grantee would be CWAVOPT. This is how land trust/REIT work. The trust does only own deeds that are for the benefit of PVTO Owners Association. Meaning it doesn't own a bunch of other deeds that CWA owners can't use.

I also don't see where it is a First American Trust. Looking it up with the Delaware Division of Corporations, it looks to be a trust through CSC DELAWARE TRUST COMPANY.

 

[paxsarah]

The ownerships are being deeded TO the "Trust".
View attachment 118838
The deeds are no longer directly owned by WVR. On the deeds, the grantor would be WVR or another entity and the grantee would be CWAVOPT. This is how land trust/REIT work. The trust does only own deeds that are for the benefit of PVTO Owners Association. Meaning it doesn't own a bunch of other deeds that CWA owners can't use.

I also don't see where it is a First American Trust. Looking it up with the Delaware Division of Corporations, it looks to be a trust through CSC DELAWARE TRUST COMPANY.

I'm glad you covered this more thoroughly than I would have because now I don't have to click "show ignored content" anymore.

 

[dioxide45]

I'm glad you covered this more thoroughly than I would have because now I don't have to click "show ignored content" anymore.

For someone who, based on their reply, doesn’t seem to have a fundamental understanding of how real estate transactions work, they shouldn’t be using the term ‘NO’ so emphatically.

 

[GlobalGrindChef]

What does the online search feature for availability have to with the paper based member directory, which has nothing to do with inventory availability?


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The comment was in reference to why a paper directory was helpful. It is considerably easier to look in the directory to find answers for how your ownership works. For example, you'd like to learn more about a topic area (Select vs. Access, Can you modify a reservation to also cancel 1 night, annual amount of VIP Reciprocal ARPs, etc.). Try using the online search features for these, and other critical learning areas... Is it a wonder why many people don't fully understand the full value of their ownership?

 

[dioxide45]

The comment was in reference to why a paper directory was helpful. It is considerably easier to look in the directory to find answers for how your ownership works. For example, you'd like to learn more about a topic area (Select vs. Access, Can you modify a reservation to also cancel 1 night, annual amount of VIP Reciprocal ARPs, etc.). Try using the online search features for these, and other critical learning areas... Is it a wonder why many people don't fully understand the full value of their ownership?

I think Wyndham has gone the way of many companies when it comes to paper directories. Just think of the phone book or Yellow Pages. I don't get those dropped at my door anymore. It is cheaper and more efficient for them to just have this information available online.

People don't fully understand the value of what they own because they don't do the research, and the fact that timeshare companies do make the programs more confusing. Though I think some of the confusion comes from the evolution of timeshares over time with companies trying to combine different programs and systems while still retaining the original ownership rights of those that bought before new programs were established.

 

[Arimaas]

At a macro level yes, however as has been indicated in this thread multiple times, owners with 2026 reservations at impacted resorts were and still are being contacted to make alternate arrangements proactively. So this tranche of owners are being notified explicitly. This of course requires those owners to either pick up the phone or respond to emails sent for these follow-ups. Absent that, this recently published website missive under Resort News is the only official notification out there at this point in time.


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With the amount of spam calls and email spam, maybe you could suggest them notifying people via USPS. I know that's expensive, but relying solely on phone calls and emails in the days of spam blockers is a recipe for people missing things.

 

[Arimaas]

I referenced it in an earlier post. I was curious what Wyndhams goal was for the swap. I don't think they are intentionally not offering the swap to eligible owners. I think some mail and email just gets lost in the shuffle. But what is their actual goal. Swap as many owners as possible, swap as few as possible. Is the swap offer merely just because of a PR or legal obligation? I don't think anyone here can answer these questions.

My guess is to get CWA points off their balance sheets. They probably have many more points than they can sell. While no one but them really knows, I think we call can safely assume if they are doing so, it is to their benefit, not the owners.

 

[Arimaas]

We recommended Wyndham consider using goodwill points precisely for this purpose, especially given the late notice and lack of communication on these actions. I will have to ask if this is even in the cards and if so, what are the requirements for granting goodwill points.


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I appreciate you asking all these questions, and brining this to Wyndham, but it's pretty apparent that they don't care for your suggestions and are just going to do what they want to do. I again, don't mean to be snarky, but it just seems to be the outcome of your biweekly meetings. Not really sure what they brought to the general ownership? Rolled points still go poof January 1, the option to retain membership for a year if you are losing your only contract is not being given, communication to the general public isn't there among other things. I (and I am sure we all) appreciate all the personal time and effort you are putting into this, and again, I mean this with no disrespect, but your biweekly meetings sure are not the panacea to this mess.

 

[HitchHiker71]

Wonderful news. I will reproduce and report to Wyndham IT accordingly.


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Reproduced and sent to Wyndham. I also noticed that there's nothing in the mobile app about this either - so I recommended Wyndham send an app notification in addition to fixing the mobile website issue.

 

[paxsarah]

I appreciate you asking all these questions, and brining this to Wyndham, but it's pretty apparent that they don't care for your suggestions and are just going to do what they want to do. I again, don't mean to be snarky, but it just seems to be the outcome of your biweekly meetings. Not really sure what they brought to the general ownership? Rolled points still go poof January 1, the option to retain membership for a year if you are losing your only contract is not being given, communication to the general public isn't there among other things. I (and I am sure we all) appreciate all the personal time and effort you are putting into this, and again, I mean this with no disrespect, but your biweekly meetings sure are not the panacea to this mess.

They have been bringing us information that we didn't initially have, and clarifying questions about logistics, especially earlier on in the process when confirmed information was scant. On the flip side, while some of the ideas from here that were suggested to Wyndham were good, obviously Wyndham is barely keeping up with the bare minimum that needs to be done, so probably implementing a whole goodwill points protocol, for instance, was never something they were going to end up doing. Owners are already waiting hours on hold just to talk to someone. We were making suggestions for the Wyndham we hoped could be better, but all we got was the flawed Wyndham we all know and [insert your chosen term here].

 

[Arimaas]

They have been bringing us information that we didn't initially have, and clarifying questions about logistics, especially earlier on in the process when confirmed information was scant. On the flip side, while some of the ideas from here that were suggested to Wyndham were good, obviously Wyndham is barely keeping up with the bare minimum that needs to be done, so probably implementing a whole goodwill points protocol, for instance, was never something they were going to end up doing. Owners are already waiting hours on hold just to talk to someone. We were making suggestions for the Wyndham we hoped could be better, but all we got was the flawed Wyndham we all know and [insert your chosen term here].

Yes, I did leave that part out, and I appreciate the somewhat existence avenue of information flowing to us via his biweekly meetings. My main point was, anything that went back to Wyndham, landed wholly on deaf ears. And while that may not be @HitchHiker71's contacts deaf years, but once it starts working up the chain (if it even goes up), it dies on the vine. So like I said, I have no faith in Wyndham caring about anything brought to them at the biweekly meetings. Wyndham has shown its true colors (if it didn't already), and we know what they are about and have to accept it for what it's worth.

 

[HitchHiker71]

I appreciate you asking all these questions, and brining this to Wyndham, but it's pretty apparent that they don't care for your suggestions and are just going to do what they want to do. I again, don't mean to be snarky, but it just seems to be the outcome of your biweekly meetings. Not really sure what they brought to the general ownership? Rolled points still go poof January 1, the option to retain membership for a year if you are losing your only contract is not being given, communication to the general public isn't there among other things. I (and I am sure we all) appreciate all the personal time and effort you are putting into this, and again, I mean this with no disrespect, but your biweekly meetings sure are not the panacea to this mess.

I take your point, I really do, however, does that mean in life we simply stop doing what's right or stop trying, or doing our part so to speak? For my part, that's not how I work. Yes, as I've said repeatedly over time, sometimes it feels like one step forward two steps back, but that will never stop me from continuing to trudge forward, so long as I'm engaged in the overall process and trying to do what's right for TUGGERs and for CW owners overall.

 

[Arimaas]

I take your point, I really do, however, does that mean in life we simply stop doing what's right or stop trying, or doing our part so to speak? For my part, that's not how I work. Yes, as I've said repeatedly over time, sometimes it feels like one step forward two steps back, but that will never stop me from continuing to trudge forward, so long as I'm engaged in the overall process and trying to do what's right for TUGGERs and for CW owners overall.

Like I said, I appreciate it. Even more so knowing that you know where it stands in their eyes. I just have zero faith in it.

 

[Arimaas]

So I looked at my annual statement today. Wyndham forgot to take my "poof" contract out of the program fees. Does any one know off the top of their heads how the much the program fee is for resale? A quick Google search doesn't turn up the answer, and I am not searching through all of the Wyndham website to find the answer. If there math is correct, I am paying 75¢ per 1000 points. Seem right? So my program fees should be $273.04 (unless that's less than the minimum?) a difference of $115.52.

I am still being charged as if I have my FG contract in the account. You can see below that the program fee includes my CWA contract (126K) my Kingsgate contract (238K) and what would be my FG contract (154K). While they deducted the FG contract from the lists of my contracts, they forgot to backout 154K points from the program fee.

Now I don't think this was done with ill intent, but it's lazy and sloppy. I happened to catch it, but how many people don't even know what they own, and won't see this (I know, shame on them for not knowing). Also, how many phone calls and hours of my time is this going to take to get fixed? I assure you when it pulls the new payment this month for January, it won't be fixed on time. Thoughts, or am I misreading this?

 

[HitchHiker71]

Like I said, I appreciate it. Even more so knowing that you know where it stands in their eyes. I just have zero faith in it.

FWIW - these current actions are not normally what we're working toward - I mostly have a focus on website and mobile app improvements - not these types of major actions. We've seen at least moderately more success in getting new features, including the mobile app itself, via our ongoing efforts, as opposed to issues outside of the tech stacks. I'm only involved in trying to herd cats on tracking these actions because, well, no one else seemed interested in doing so, and I felt like we were basically being left in the dark otherwise. In other words, I never wanted this job, it's not what I normally focus on, but I'm happy to try to help even if we're only helping a small handful of the overall ownership base in the process.

 

[HitchHiker71]

My guess is to get CWA points off their balance sheets. They probably have many more points than they can sell. While no one but them really knows, I think we call can safely assume if they are doing so, it is to their benefit, not the owners.

Reducing unsold inventory is always of benefit to Wyndham, though at the same time, doing it for free isn't a net benefit, it's a cost. How that all works out from an accounting standpoint, in so far as write-downs and such, I have no idea.

 

[HitchHiker71]

So I looked at my annual statement today. Wyndham forgot to take my "poof" contract out of the program fees. Does any one know off the top of their heads how the much the program fee is for resale? A quick Google search doesn't turn up the answer, and I am not searching through all of the Wyndham website to find the answer. If there math is correct, I am paying 75¢ per 1000 points. Seem right? So my program fees should be $273.04 (unless that's less than the minimum?) a difference of $115.52.

I am still being charged as if I have my FG contract in the account. You can see below that the program fee includes my CWA contract (126K) my Kingsgate contract (238K) and what would be my FG contract (154K). While they deducted the FG contract from the lists of my contracts, they forgot to backout 154K points from the program fee.

Now I don't think this was done with ill intent, but it's lazy and sloppy. I happened to catch it, but how many people don't even know what they own, and won't see this (I know, shame on them for not knowing). Also, how many phone calls and hours of my time is this going to take to get fixed? I assure you when it pulls the new payment this month for January, it won't be fixed on time. Thoughts, or am I misreading this?

For future reference, this data is tracked in the TUG MF sheet linked here - always at the bottom of the first sheet: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1mRNaOwfYAl-E5b5GbVSTUwDrqcPelxYxPsNSYmvbX80/edit?gid=0#gid=0

Until the contracts are actually removed from the accounts, the numbers aren't going to adjust - that's just how the system works. I'd assume that once the contract is removed, the recalculation will occur, and your monthly payment will then adjust down accordingly - so owners will either receive a one-time credit - or that same amount will be divided up over the remaining monthly payments for the year in scope. I'd surmise it will be the latter - but only time will tell. I can certainly inquire if needed.

EDIT: Actually from what I’ve learned the contracts will not actually be removed from the accounts until the resort disposition occurs. The contracts will be essentially made inactive after 12/31/2025 when the resorts cease operations and are removed from CW. Once this process occurs, the financials within all impacted accounts will adjust. We haven’t been overly focused on getting details on these issues since the focus has been on the HOA voting processes and results concluding. Now that we are basically done with this phase of the ongoing actions (except for the two Shawnee HOAs), we can shift focus toward how the resorts being removed from CW will actually transpire within the systems and what the owner impact/experience will look like.

 

[Arimaas]

View attachment 118846

For future reference, this data is tracked in the TUG MF sheet linked here - always at the bottom of the first sheet: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1mRNaOwfYAl-E5b5GbVSTUwDrqcPelxYxPsNSYmvbX80/edit?gid=0#gid=0

Until the contracts are actually removed from the accounts, the numbers aren't going to adjust - that's just how the system works. I'd assume that once the contract is removed, the recalculation will occur, and your monthly payment will then adjust down accordingly - so owners will either receive a one-time credit - or that same amount will be divided up over the remaining monthly payments for the year in scope. I'd surmise it will be the latter - but only time will tell. I can certainly inquire if needed.

This is the problem , we are left to guess what their plan is for our money. It’s absurd.

Sure, please ask, and please tell them some transparent helpful communication would do wondere. We don’t even know when the contracts will be removed Since whenever it’ll be will be after my January payment is taken or I receive a refund of the program fee. I am paying for, but aren’t using since I don’t get those points? Again, appreciate you taking this to them, but I’m not optimistic. That anything will come of it.

 

[Arimaas]

This is the problem , we are left to guess what their plan is for our money. It’s absurd.

Sure, please ask, and please tell them some transparent helpful communication would do wondere. We don’t even know when the contracts will be removed Since whenever it’ll be will be after my January payment is taken or I receive a refund of the program fee. I am paying for, but aren’t using since I don’t get those points? Again, appreciate you taking this to them, but I’m not optimistic. That anything will come of it.

Glad you made sense of this. It was voice dictated. Lol.

 

[jp10558]

Wyndham called me to cancel a Star Island 3 BR reservation in April. Their offer to help with alternate reservations was rather useless however. The VC searched for another 3BR in the area. None available so she offered a 2BR at Bonnet Creek. I said I needed 3 BRs, so she suggested I also book a 1- BR at BC. But it was at the full point value so I would be paying an additional 150K points. Wow - I could have done all that myself online.

And again, what I though would happen - they didn't actually plan for this so you all just got screwed.

 

[jp10558]

I believe it's very much in Wyndham's favor to have as many people as possible take the swap to CWA. That gets a ton of money THEY are currently paying for MF off of their books.

Well, they're not really doing themselves any favors then if people are just not getting notified and there's a short ticking clock that the potential swappers don't know about.