Sorry it has appeared. My mistakeHas Wellington HOA voted yet? And what was the result? I don't see Wellington listed for Fairfield Glade on the Wyndham Club closing sticky
Sorry it has appeared. My mistakeHas Wellington HOA voted yet? And what was the result? I don't see Wellington listed for Fairfield Glade on the Wyndham Club closing sticky
Yes it did. The vote was to go ahead with bankruptcy. I didn't attend the meeting so I don't know more than that.On the list of closed HOA's for Club Wyndham at Fairfield Glade, I did not see anything about a vote for the Nottingham HOA. Did it vote to close also?
We may not have a complete list of HOAs for all resorts unless someone provided such a list - but I know for a fact that all HOAs at FG voted for bankruptcy proceedings and resort closure at year end.Has Wellington HOA voted yet? And what was the result? I don't see Wellington listed for Fairfield Glade on the Wyndham Club closing sticky
Thru replacing those same resorts with higher credit resorts - accomplishing two goals that will juice future earnings..... swapping out low credit inventory with higher credit inventory that owners at the "retired resort" owners will need more credits to reserve i.e. (2BR summer National Harbor =250k vs 2BR Bentley Brook = 189k) - with a similar impact to maintenance fees. Add in the double impact of moving unsold CWA points from Wyndham to owners - reducing their "holding costs" of unsold inventory. Both changes fall right to the bottom line.Greater profits how? By selling resorts that Wyndham has been propping up for years? Instead of "greater profits," it's more like stopping the bleeding.
They aren't replacing the resorts though, at least not any time soon. The only current marketing for any recently announced resorts is not within Club Wyndham, it's for SI resort associations that will not be within any current timeshare club managed by Wyndham - it's net new and entirely separate from Club Wyndham.Thru replacing those same resorts with higher credit resorts - accomplishing two goals that will juice future earnings..... swapping out low credit inventory with higher credit inventory that owners at the "retired resort" owners will need more credits to reserve i.e. (2BR summer National Harbor =250k vs 2BR Bentley Brook = 189k) - with a similar impact to maintenance fees. Add in the double impact of moving unsold CWA points from Wyndham to owners - reducing their "holding costs" of unsold inventory. Both changes fall right to the bottom line.
I think we are saying something similar. And while I agree that we are unlikely to see new resorts in the near term, my point was that anything that takes out lower cost inventory, will naturally juice utilization of higher credit resorts that are already in the system (aka National Harbor).They aren't replacing the resorts though, at least not any time soon. The only current marketing for any recently announced resorts is not within Club Wyndham, it's for SI resort associations that will not be within any current timeshare club managed by Wyndham - it's net new and entirely separate from Club Wyndham.
That said, I actually said the same thing you're saying way back in the beginnings of this thread myself - reference post #219 here - that there's no one reason for all of this - it's many different reasons - all put together - that provide net benefits to T&L - one of which is that since Wyndham cannot change the points values of resorts - this is the one thing more or less written in stone - then removing older lower points value resorts does indirectly move up the "per credit" cost for resort stays. It's not a tomorrow type play, but it's likely a long term play as you're alluding to here if I'm reading you right. Lowering the holding costs of unsold inventory is also another net benefit without a doubt.
They aren't replacing the resorts though, at least not any time soon. The only current marketing for any recently announced resorts is not within Club Wyndham, it's for SI resort associations that will not be within any current timeshare club managed by Wyndham - it's net new and entirely separate from Club Wyndham.
That said, I actually said the same thing you're saying way back in the beginnings of this thread myself - reference post #219 here - that there's no one reason for all of this - it's many different reasons - all put together - that provide net benefits to T&L - one of which is that since Wyndham cannot change the points values of resorts - this is the one thing more or less written in stone - then removing older lower points value resorts does indirectly move up the "per credit" cost for resort stays. It's not a tomorrow type play, but it's likely a long term play as you're alluding to here if I'm reading you right. Lowering the holding costs of unsold inventory is also another net benefit without a doubt.
Would you consider Bentley Brook closing and then over a two-year span being renovated and reorganized (maybe entirely as a CWA resort) to be a possible scenario? I'm thinking of the Chapter 11 reorganization process -- clearly apples to timeshare oranges but still an interesting analogy with reorganized corporations issuing new equity to creditors. Do you think something like this is a possible long-term play? Do you think Lake Lure, Shawnee, and even Atlantic City also might fit the bill? They are all outstanding locations. We know that Wyndham already owns 55 percent of the Bentley Brook intervals. I wonder what percent it owns at some of the other closing resorts. It would surprise me if Wyndham did not have a long-term plan for them. Such an approach would be facilitated if a substantial percentage of interval owners took the offer of conversion to CWA, but it wouldn't be necessary for all to convert.They aren't replacing the resorts though, at least not any time soon. The only current marketing for any recently announced resorts is not within Club Wyndham, it's for SI resort associations that will not be within any current timeshare club managed by Wyndham - it's net new and entirely separate from Club Wyndham.
That said, I actually said the same thing you're saying way back in the beginnings of this thread myself - reference post #219 here - that there's no one reason for all of this - it's many different reasons - all put together - that provide net benefits to T&L - one of which is that since Wyndham cannot change the points values of resorts - this is the one thing more or less written in stone - then removing older lower points value resorts does indirectly move up the "per credit" cost for resort stays. It's not a tomorrow type play, but it's likely a long term play as you're alluding to here if I'm reading you right. Lowering the holding costs of unsold inventory is also another net benefit without a doubt.
Would you consider Bentley Brook closing and then over a two-year span being renovated and reorganized (maybe entirely as a CWA resort) to be a possible scenario? I'm thinking of the Chapter 11 reorganization process -- clearly apples to timeshare oranges but still an interesting analogy with reorganized corporations issuing new equity to creditors. Do you think something like this is a possible long-term play? Do you think Lake Lure, Shawnee, and even Atlantic City also might fit the bill? They are all outstanding locations. We know that Wyndham already owns 55 percent of the Bentley Brook intervals. I wonder what percent it owns at some of the other closing resorts. It would surprise me if Wyndham did not have a long-term plan for them. Such an approach would be facilitated if a substantial percentage of interval owners took the offer of conversion to CWA, but it wouldn't be necessary for all to convert.
It might work for some other entity but not T&L/Wyndham. They need to get out of these properties as soon as they possibly can. Once the bankruptcy proceedings are complete and Hilco can put the properties up for sale, then some other company could come in and start with a clean slate... not to mention a bunch of cash (or lots of debt).Would you consider Bentley Brook closing and then over a two-year span being renovated and reorganized (maybe entirely as a CWA resort) to be a possible scenario? ...Do you think Lake Lure, Shawnee, and even Atlantic City also might fit the bill?
Ok, you may be right, but I'm not as certain as you are. I will wait till the dramatic denouement of this saga. If Wyndham abandons prime locations like Shawnee, it makes me wonder about Wyndham's viability, that is, if you assume Wyndham owns a majority of the intervals at Shawnee as it does at Bentley Brook.It might work for some other entity but not T&L/Wyndham. They need to get out of these properties as soon as they possibly can. Once the bankruptcy proceedings are complete and Hilco can put the properties up for sale, then some other company could come in and start with a clean slate... not to mention a bunch of cash (or lots of debt).
I don't want to be thought of as a timeshare apologist, but the organization that published the article you quote is a timeshare exit entity.So I tried to find some web articles on the future of "timeshare." I found this article from 2019:
7 Reasons the Future of Timeshare Ownership Looks Bleak
Here are the seven reasons; you can follow the above link for details
Yes the article is about six years old but I think all the observations are still valid. Any company hoping to revive one of these soon-to-be-former Wyndham resorts needs to consider these challenges.
- The Increasing Costs and Liability of Timesharing
- There is No Resale Value for Timeshare Properties
- The Timeshare Industry is Now Flooded with Scams
- Today’s Travel Options Are Valued More by Travelers
- The Evolution of E-commerce in the Travel Industry
- Timeshare Companies Have Been Overselling Inventory
- A Consistent, Perpetuated and Tarnished Reputation
Bentley Brook is located within hailing distance of major population centers. One of my biggest regrets is that I no longer downhill ski. I miss it. When I did ski, I went further north. I didn't ski Jiminy Peak, however, skiing is not the only attraction to that area. I was there recently in the summer. It was crowded with groups playing various sports. While I was there, my wife and I went to Tanglewood, an outstanding outdoor music venue that I like better than Wolftrap in Northern Virginia. There are many fine dining opportunities nearby. Bentley Brook is a year-round destination in the Berkshires, just as Shawnee is a year-round destination in the Poconos. As they say, real estate is all about location, location, location. Wyndham's presence in the Northeast is sparse enough, and I think leaving these locations would indicate a major retrenchment. I was never a proponent of timeshares, in fact there was a time I thought they were a scam, but because I wanted a substitute pied a terre in NYC, bought into the Wyndham system almost 10 years ago (Midtown 45). Since then, I have been to Midtown 45 several times a year as well as many Wyndham locations: Sedona, Taos, San Antonio, Lake Lure, Williamsburg, Edisto, Lake Marion, Pompano Beach, Daytona, St. Augustine (RCI), Bonnet Creek, Star Island, Margaritaville St. Thomas, Margaritaville Puerto Rico, Smuggler’s Notch, Bentley Brook, Newport Long Wharf, Ocean Blvd., Myrtle Beach, Clearwater Beach, NOLA La Belle Maison, NOLA Avenue Plaza, San Antonio La Cascada, and Atlantic City. If I am not quite a proponent of timeshares, I now appreciate what they offer. I don't think timeshares will go away as many apparently do. And I don't think that Wyndham is winding down its timeshare operations. It will surprise me to learn Wyndham is abandoning prime locations as a result of the current reorganization. So, I say again, I am waiting for the dust to settle.I highly doubt it. Why hire Hilco - a prominent commercial real estate firm - to sell these resorts? The only long term plan right now it to sell these real estate assets and recover as much capital as is possible.
Let me give a more explicit example. Contrary to popular opinion, even BB is not in a highly sought after area. Yes I love it personally. Anyone who knows that area knows there’s a large sign at the bottom of Brodie Mountain Rd for the Snowy Owl resort. That resort never existed. Brodie Mountain ski resort closed roughly 20 years ago or so, and sold off to Silverleaf, who promised to build roughly 350 timeshares on it, and remove the ski resort via an agreement with Jiminy Peak to prevent competition. That never happened, and Brodie mountain went back up for sale around 2010 timeframe and is still for sale today some 15 years later. Anyone could buy the entire mountain tract for under $2 million now. Granted, large wind turbines have since been installed on the mountaintop - since no one wants to buy that property - not for 15 years now. I’m not trying to rain on anyone’s parade. I love BB as a rustic mountainous ski-on resort, but these areas aren’t what they used to be. That’s at least in part why Wyndham is exiting, and why Silverleaf never followed through on building on Brodie mountain in the first place 20 years ago.
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Ok, you may be right, but I'm not as certain as you are. I will wait till the dramatic denouement of this saga. If Wyndham abandons prime locations like Shawnee, it makes me wonder about Wyndham's viability, that is, if you assume Wyndham owns a majority of the intervals at Shawnee as it does at Bentley Brook.
Let me give a more explicit example. Contrary to popular opinion, even BB is not in a highly sought after area. Yes I love it personally. Anyone who knows that area knows there’s a large sign at the bottom of Brodie Mountain Rd for the Snowy Owl resort. That resort never existed. Brodie Mountain ski resort closed roughly 20 years ago or so, and sold off to Silverleaf, who promised to build roughly 350 timeshares on it, and remove the ski resort via an agreement with Jiminy Peak to prevent competition. That never happened, and Brodie mountain went back up for sale around 2010 timeframe and is still for sale today some 15 years later. Anyone could buy the entire mountain tract for under $2 million now. Granted, large wind turbines have since been installed on the mountaintop - since no one wants to buy that property - not for 15 years now. I’m not trying to rain on anyone’s parade. I love BB as a rustic mountainous ski-on resort, but these areas aren’t what they used to be. That’s at least in part why Wyndham is exiting, and why Silverleaf never followed through on building on Brodie mountain in the first place 20 years ago.
Good point, I did not notice that. However, I still think the arguments are valid, and the industry is struggling to come up with answers.I don't want to be thought of as a timeshare apologist, but the organization that published the article you quote is a timeshare exit entity.
I belonged to a ski club in the Hartford, CT area in the 80's time frame. I never skied Jiminy but did ski Brodie twice, once at night. My friends considered Brodie the better slope at that time. We all preferred Vermont, which has much superior ski areas. For a day trip, both Jiminy and Mt Snow in VT are about the same driving distance with no toll going to VT. Mt snow's vertical height is 1700 ft while Jimeny is only 1150. This is significant because It allows for many more trails and variety. We had a crude lodge further north in VT for weekend stays which made available access to many other excellent ski areas.
VT is a much more desirable area for a ski lodge than MA. We enjoyed our two stays at Bentley but I didn't see any reason why I would have wanted to ski there when I had VT for trips and smaller local slopes for night skiing.
This topic has been debated over the years on TUG. Timesharing is not as relevant to the marketplace as it once was. There's been a lot of debate about taking more of a lease approach to timesharing moving forward as opposed to perpetual ownership. Think in terms of the Discovery package on steroids. No deeded ownerships, just leasing vacation packages for a more reasonable cost over time - which is a form of moving toward a subscription pricing model and away from requiring a large up-front capital outlay. This approach has several advantages for companies like Wyndham, including a much more stable and persistent income from the subscriptions and less reliance on the rather dismal sales practices that are so widely employed within the timeshare vertical. We haven't really seen any major timeshare company move away from these legacy sales models though, and make a major move toward subscription models. The premise behind this type of move is that younger generations want more variety and flexibility when it comes to vacationing, and don't want to be locked into committing to large capital expenditures (assuming a developer purchase of course). The problem is that the resale market costs almost nothing in comparison - so even moving to a subscription model may prove challenging.So I tried to find some web articles on the future of "timeshare." I found this article from 2019:
7 Reasons the Future of Timeshare Ownership Looks Bleak
Here are the seven reasons; you can follow the above link for details
Yes the article is about six years old but I think all the observations are still valid. Any company hoping to revive one of these soon-to-be-former Wyndham resorts needs to consider these challenges.
- The Increasing Costs and Liability of Timesharing
- There is No Resale Value for Timeshare Properties
- The Timeshare Industry is Now Flooded with Scams
- Today’s Travel Options Are Valued More by Travelers
- The Evolution of E-commerce in the Travel Industry
- Timeshare Companies Have Been Overselling Inventory
- A Consistent, Perpetuated and Tarnished Reputation
Let's ask AI if the Poconos is prime real estate then - since you appear to disagree:Till we tangibly have some replacement for at least a fraction of the 15 resorts we lost, no matter how many of them you think were "the land that time forgot", I won't believe a word they say.
Especially if the contraction continues. Not everywhere is Florida and California. Not everyone wants Florida and California. And for as much as we hear "nobody was going to these resorts", we also have all personally seen them used. Maybe it was sheer coincidance on a busy week, but the narrative that "highly seasonal resorts can't be part of the plan going forward" means our product is absolutely screwed long term.
And if I hear another word about Tuscaloosa (which allegedly they have not even broke ground on) i'm going to vomit.
Again, I'm not saying I like what is transpiring since we do place value on these resorts personally and we live in the mid-Atlantic area, which is generally considered to be part of the northeast - or at least the southern tip of that region of the US. We personally stay at Wyndham Shawnee more than any other resort location within a two hour drive of where we live. Now, we're effectively limited only to the two D.C. locations - NH and OTA. OTA is hard to find availability at already - and NH is expensive on points. The Poconos was always easier to find availability in comparison (which likely says something about the why here whether we like it or not). So personally, I don't like what is transpiring since it means it will change our vacation habits starting end of year. Fortunately for us, our son is now an airline pilot, and we can fly for free with Endeavor/Delta airlines, so we'll be making changes to our vacation habits and place more of an emphasis on less frequent trips, but to destinations that require short flights where Wyndham resorts are located, such as the Carolinas, Nashville, Atlanta, Florida, etc. Avelo Airlines flies out of our local airport as well, which is a discount airline whereby if we pack light, we could fly for around $100 per person round trip, which would also be an option for those locations where our "free" flights don't have direct routes.No, the Wyndham Shawnee Village resort (also known as Club Wyndham Shawnee Village) is not considered prime real estate in the 2025 commercial real estate market, particularly within the hospitality sector. Prime hospitality assets are typically characterized by high occupancy rates (often 70%+), strong revenue per available room (RevPAR) growth, premium locations in high-demand urban or gateway markets, resilient tenant bases (e.g., branded luxury operators), and robust appreciation potential driven by tourism and economic fundamentals. In contrast, Shawnee Village's impending closure and distress sale signal underperformance, limited investor appeal, and misalignment with market trends favoring upscale, experiential properties.
Specific Examples of Why Wyndham Shawnee Village Is Not Prime:
Actual Examples of Prime Hospitality Real Estate for ComparisonFor context, here are standout 2025 U.S. hotel sales from the LW Hospitality Advisors Q2 survey (89 transactions totaling $3.3 billion), all exceeding $100 million and featuring per-key prices well above $200,000—hallmarks of prime status due to location, branding, and performance. These contrast sharply with Shawnee's sub-$10 million estimate and closure.
- Operational Closure and Layoffs: The resort, a timeshare-style property in Shawnee-on-Delaware, Pennsylvania (in the Poconos), is set to shutter on December 31, 2025, after Wyndham exits management. This will result in 124 layoffs, as reported in Pennsylvania's WARN notice. Closures like this often stem from declining occupancy, rising operational costs (e.g., maintenance for its aging infrastructure across 1,200+ acres), and failure to adapt to post-pandemic preferences for luxury or experiential stays over traditional timeshares. While the broader Poconos tourism market remains strong—contributing billions annually and seeing luxe upgrades like boutique hotels and villa enhancements for summer 2025—the Shawnee property's exit highlights its specific struggles in a competitive regional landscape.
- Low Asset Valuation and Resale Activity: Individual timeshare units and points at Shawnee are trading at deeply discounted prices on secondary markets, indicating weak demand. For instance, a 2-bedroom prime-season week (Week 51) is listed for $250 (with $1,047 annual fees), while larger point packages (e.g., 64,000 annual points) fetch around $18,000. Forum speculation pegs the entire property's post-closure sale price at under $10 million, far below replacement costs or comparable hospitality assets. This reflects broader timeshare sector pressures, where legacy properties like Shawnee face oversupply and buyer fatigue, unlike high-yield branded hotels.
- Market Mismatch in Hospitality Trends: The U.S. hospitality sector in 2025 shows resilience overall, with transaction volumes up 3.9% year-over-year to $9.7 billion in H1, driven by luxury and urban recovery. However, secondary/tertiary markets like the Poconos (despite solid Airbnb occupancy around 43% and $58,669 average annual revenue per listing) lag behind prime segments, where investors prioritize assets with 15%+ CAGR in loyalty programs and group demand. Shawnee's focus on deeded timeshares, rather than flexible, high-end rentals, positions it as a value-play at best—not prime.
Property Location Sale Price Per-Key Price Key Details JW Marriott Phoenix Desert Ridge Resort & Spa Phoenix, AZ $865 million $910,000 Acquired by Ryman Hospitality Properties from Trinity Investments. A 950-key luxury resort with spa and golf, benefiting from Phoenix's booming Sun Belt tourism and corporate demand; exemplifies prime resort recovery with high RevPAR. The Stanley Hotel Estes Park, CO $163 million $839,000 Sold to The Stanley Partnership for Art, Culture, and Education. Iconic 140-key historic property (inspiration for The Shining), leveraging Colorado's outdoor adventure market; prime due to cultural cachet and 70%+ occupancy. Fairmont Dallas Dallas, TX $111 million $203,670 Acquired by Sixth Street Partners from Xenia Hotels & Resorts. 547-key urban luxury hotel in a top CRE investment city (Dallas ranks #1 for 2025 per Vyzer analysis), driven by business travel resurgence and Texas economic growth.
In summary, while the Poconos offer investment potential in emerging segments like short-term rentals, Wyndham Shawnee Village's closure and fire-sale dynamics firmly place it in the non-prime category—more akin to distressed assets than the high-value, investor-favored properties dominating 2025 headlines. If you're considering alternatives, focus on Sun Belt or gateway markets for stronger returns.
Ok, you may be right, but I'm not as certain as you are. I will wait till the dramatic denouement of this saga. If Wyndham abandons prime locations like Shawnee, it makes me wonder about Wyndham's viability, that is, if you assume Wyndham owns a majority of the intervals at Shawnee as it does at Bentley Brook.
Some of the arguments have value, some are exaggerated. It's ironic that they site scams, as most if not all timeshare exit companies are in fact scams. Also, overselling the inventory has not been a real issue for a long time. I think one could argue that e-commerce has helped the timeshare industry as much as it has hurt it and saying travelers like todays options more, depends on which group you are talking about. That said, the value proposition for purchasing timeshares today at developer cost is not good and the reputation does suck. EDIT: and sales tactics continue to trash that reputation.Good point, I did not notice that. However, I still think the arguments are valid, and the industry is struggling to come up with answers.