Wyndham is closing a handful of legacy resorts - dedicated chart/tracker located in the first post for this unfolding set of events

[nibble4bits]

Wyndham and the other owners will be lucky to find a buyer at >10 million dollars.

Speculation is almost always baloney. That's less than the valuation company that the HOA legal reps presented. Market value is 13-15 million if the villages are sold as a whole and not piecemealed.

The new buyer, if it isn't Wyndham, will most likely want to tear down and rebuild. They will only have to deal with the permanent owners nearby that weren't part of the sale. The Inn, the golf course, general store, the B&Bs..

 

[nibble4bits]

I don't think Wyndham will be buying any of the resorts. The controlled them before, if they wanted to keep control they wouldn't have bothered with all of this.

They have a majority control of the HOAs, but they still have a lot of week timeshare owners to contend with now. Selling & rebuying the resort in its entirety would ridden that problem.

 

[nibble4bits]

the 13 million sale price has to come from Wyndham

Not completely true. There are market value laws in place, valuation companies base them on such things as occupancy rates, condition of the present buildings, location of the land .. it's still property by a riverside. The Inn, golf course, brewpub and general store will still be nearby to garner tourism interest. I don't know what's happening with the Gem - I didn't think to ask.

 

[CO skier]

That's less than the valuation company that the HOA legal reps presented.

They ... do ... not ... know. It is just a WAG estimate -- if a buyer can even be found, someday. 100% guarantee it will not be Wyndham.

 

[shawnee83]

I got an extra week at Shawnee though Armed Forces Vacation Club and it just so happens to be when the "Special Meeting" is scheduled so I'll be there later today.

When I was checking in, a woman was at the front desk saying her 84 year old mother could not get up the stairs to the bedroom. The guy at the desk said they had very very few units with a bedroom on the first floor. Just one example of why ADA modifications could be a major concern going forward.

I'm in Ridge Top (RT) in a unit that has NOT been remodeled lately... we stayed in a remodeled RT unit a couple years ago and it was pretty nice. But I'd say this one is "Shawnee Rustic."

 

[paxsarah]

and now they have zero owner pushback to fight and can exclusively offer the reconstructed site to points and rewards members.

Club Wyndham doesn’t have rewards members. When Club Wyndham builds any new resort, it’s because they’ve determined that they can sell timeshare points contracts deeded at that location. I think in the year 2025 it’s not clear they can do so in the Poconos.

 

[bnoble]

...and the only other option is to fold it into CWA and sell it that way. But it would appear that they are acquiring inventory faster than they can sell it, which is why they are unloading these resorts at which they already own large chunks.

Occam isn't always right, but usually he is.

 

[comicbookman]

Not completely true. There are market value laws in place, valuation companies base them on such things as occupancy rates, condition of the present buildings, location of the land .. it's still property by a riverside. The Inn, golf course, brewpub and general store will still be nearby to garner tourism interest. I don't know what's happening with the Gem - I didn't think to ask.

So you are arguing both that it won't be less than 13 mil and that it could be less than 13 mil either way for your fantasy to work the purchase money needs to come from Wyndham and your scenario conveniently ignores that.

 

[shawnee83]

I don't know what's happening with the Gem - I didn't think to ask.

The Gem and Keystone, the little pub/restaurant? I'm pretty sure that is totally separate from the Shawnee Resort and seems to have ties to the Shawnee Inn and the brew pub.

As far as Wyndham wanting to buy Shawnee, I don't see where that makes sense. They can't seem to make a go of it now and don't want to invest the money (through its majority ownership in all the HOAs) to make it more attractive. But if I understood the vagaries of real estate and the hospitality industry I probably would not be chatting on this board and be out wheeling and dealing.

 

[Rolltydr]

…golf course, brewpub and general store…

For this latest fantasy to work, wouldn’t Wyndham, or somebody, also need to build and populate cities with restaurants, sports venues, shopping malls, theme parks, etc., so people would actually start going there again? That’s the problem with these Wyndham resorts that are closing. Today’s travelers want more than just a “golf course, brewpub and a general store”.

It’s amazing to me how much time and effort people are putting into creating these stories and, for what?

 

[HitchHiker71]

The Gem and Keystone, the little pub/restaurant? I'm pretty sure that is totally separate from the Shawnee Resort and seems to have ties to the Shawnee Inn and the brew pub.

The Shawnee Inn, golf course, and the Gem and Keystone restaurant have been owned by the Kirkwood family for decades now. Charlie Kirkwood purchased all of the property in 1977. Charlie turned 90 this year. His son Peter and other family members help run the property interests these days.

 

[RENTER]

Actually, they said occupancy was at 32%, not down 32% (way down (32%) with 2/3 of units vacant) Also said Wyndham owned 61% of the units. Those levels are unsustainable regardless of how much of it was due to your consortium of mega renters, as you could only fill 39% of the resort.

So why did they not sell those 61% of units they owned? We were bringing in many guests who were interested in doing the same as we were

 

[comicbookman]

So why did they not sell those 61% of units they owned? We were bringing in many guests who were interested in doing the same as we were

Because clearly, there was no market. Apparently, you weren't bringing in enough guests to make a noticeable difference. If Wyndham could have made money selling those deeds they would have sold them. Unless you are claiming that you were responsible for most of the 32% that was occupied. In that case, maybe you and your people should look into buying the resort and running it without the middleman (Wyndham). That would also avoid your violating your contracts language against commercial rental, so Win-Win.

 

[shawnee83]

Just got out of the "River Village Phase IIIB Owner's Association Special Meeting." A few quick thoughts, hope to get a copy of the presentation shortly

• About 50 people in the room, supposedly another 80 or so online
• Had a sort of informal pre-meeting/gripe session while waiting for the room to open... several long-time owners were there
• Audio setup was bad, folks could not hear in the back, had to rig up something so the Zoom call could get audio
• Presentation virtually identical to other Wyndham HOA meetings we've read about on this board.
• The lawyer, Dan Eliades of KL Gates, gave what I thought was a straightforward presentation that was largely free of legalese
• Short presentation from Club Wyndham Access (done remotely which I thought was cheesy) but lacking in detail (and I guess that makes sense since each person's situation would be different).
• The $13-14 million dollar estimated value as cited previously applies to the entire Shawnee resort.

That's just some quick hits. More to follow once I write up my notes.

One other observation, based on the pre-meeting chat and some of the questions: I think a lot of people have an unrealistic assessment of what their interval is worth. Also, people don't seem to realize that if Wyndham (or Fairfield or T&L or whoever) had not come in when they did, this place would have shut down years ago. Yeah their sales pitch and screwy points scheme are annoying but I don't see T&L/Club Wyndham as some evil force in all this.

Oh yeah and the name Kirkwood was mentioned several times in the informal pre-meeting; thanks to @HitchHiker71 I now have the back story on this

 

[afk324]

Thanks Good quick summary! I was on Zoom. Very tough to follow the Q&A's discussions. Yes Kirkwood was the original Shawnee Timeshare Developer stills owns Shawnee Inn and Golf resort business

 

[bizaro86]

The Shawnee Inn, golf course, and the Gem and Keystone restaurant have been owned by the Kirkwood family for decades now. Charlie Kirkwood purchased all of the property in 1977. Charlie turned 90 this year. His son Peter and other family members help run the property interests these days.

That seems like a vastly more likely buyer for the resort than Wyndham.

 

[RENTER]

Because clearly, there was no market. Apparently, you weren't bringing in enough guests to make a noticeable difference. If Wyndham could have made money selling those deeds they would have sold them. Unless you are claiming that you were responsible for most of the 32% that was occupied. In that case, maybe you and your people should look into buying the resort and running it without the middleman (Wyndham). That would also avoid your violating your contracts language against commercial rental,

Still whining about VIP owners renting their points being commercial renters?

There was a market. People who wanted to buy were told there was no inventory there. So, I have to wonder if their plan was to hold back inventory to close the resort.

If their plan was to hold back inventory to rent as many who tried to rent thru Extra Holidays know they stunk at renting. One reason our group of VIP owners working together did a much better job renting. While owners who went thru Extra Holidays and timeshare were complaining they were having difficulty renting, we were having no problems.

Sherlock Holmes should be able to confirm that with all the reviews of happy renters we brought to Wyndham

 

[chapjim]

Because clearly, there was no market. Apparently, you weren't bringing in enough guests to make a noticeable difference. If Wyndham could have made money selling those deeds they would have sold them. Unless you are claiming that you were responsible for most of the 32% that was occupied. In that case, maybe you and your people should look into buying the resort and running it without the middleman (Wyndham). That would also avoid your violating your contracts language against commercial rental, so Win-Win.

You mean RENTER and his Gang of 102 might not be relevant??

 

[comicbookman]

Still whining about VIP owners renting their points being commercial renters?

There was a market. People who wanted to buy were told there was no inventory there. So, I have to wonder if their plan was to hold back inventory to close the resort.

If their plan was to hold back inventory to rent as many who tried to rent thru Extra Holidays know they stunk at renting. One reason our group of VIP owners working together did a much better job renting. While owners who went thru Extra Holidays and timeshare were complaining they were having difficulty renting, we were having no problems.

Sherlock Holmes should be able to confirm that with all the reviews of happy renters we brought to Wyndham

I am a vip, I don't have an issue with some renting, but you were the one whining that they blew up your commercial renting operation. Something you contractually agreed not do. So, after whining that they don't appreciate what you were doing and showing that your word means nothing, you get upset that I don't believe you when you claim you were oh so successful? I say again, if you were so successful and did things so much better, now is your chance to take over the whole operation. Put your money where your mouth is. Og course that won't happen as your fantasy land would fall apart.

 

[Rolltydr]

I am a vip, I don't have an issue with some renting, but you were the one whining that they blew up your commercial renting operation. Something you contractually agreed not do. So, after whining that they don't appreciate what you were doing and showing that your word means nothing, you get upset that I don't believe you when you claim you were oh so successful? I say again, if you were so successful and did things so much better, now is your chance to take over the whole operation. Put your money where your mouth is. Og course that won't happen as your fantasy land would fall apart.

Also, I doubt he would have enough money to do as you suggest, as far as his mouth, I mean.

 

[comicbookman]

Also, I doubt he would have enough money to do as you suggest.

Of course, with such a proven track record getting a mortgage should be no issue.

 

[HitchHiker71]

That seems like a vastly more likely buyer for the resort than Wyndham.

Possible. The Kirkwood family also owns the Shawnee Ski resort area. Karl Hope actually acquired the entirety of the property consisting of roughly 2500 acres which includes all of the Shawnee Inn, golf course, restaurants, and all of Wyndham Shawnee in 1972 via a merger with American Landmark Corp in Stroudsburg and in 1974 started building what we now all know as Wyndham Shawnee (originally Club Shawnee), which was the first major timeshare built in PA state. The Shawnee Inn and golf course was built back in the very early 1900s in comparison. Karl Hope then sold the Inn and golf course to Kirkwood in 1977. Kirkwood then created SDI, Shawnee Development Inc., in 1978 and bought out Club Shawnee. Hope held 40% ownership of SDI. His ownership interest was subsequently bought out at a later date. Kirkwood also acquired the ski mountain from Hope in 1979. In 2005, Wyndham purchased Club Shawnee from SDI. A bit of history for those interested.


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[Purduece]

Would it make sense to start a new thread to cover the bankruptcy? I just got my proxy from Bentley Brook to vote for/against the Chapter 11. (For the resorts that a closing) Then people who want to discuss all these theories etc can do so here. And those only interested in the Chapter Eleven and final dissolution can move to the new thread.

Thanks

 

[shawnee83]

That seems like a vastly more likely buyer for the resort than Wyndham.

The real estate rep from Hilco today said their preference is to sell the whole Shawnee property but they may have to sell in sections. Maybe the Shawnee Inn might want to buy the areas closest to the Inn/golf course, namely, River Village I and Fairway. But then they'd be right back where they were 20+ years ago. And I don't see a whole lot of capital investment going on at the Shawnee Inn these days.

 

[bizaro86]

The real estate rep from Hilco today said their preference is to sell the whole Shawnee property but they may have to sell in sections. Maybe the Shawnee Inn might want to buy the areas closest to the Inn/golf course, namely, River Village I and Fairway. But then they'd be right back where they were 20+ years ago. And I don't see a whole lot of capital investment going on at the Shawnee Inn these days.

Sure, but buying existing assets at way less than replacement cost is a different proposition than spending money on capital improvements where you get a dollar of assets for a dollar.