Wyndham is closing a handful of legacy resorts - dedicated chart/tracker located in the first post for this unfolding set of events

[jp10558]

It seems that the basic problem is for many locations the fixed week model was never practical. It's been talked about often how unfair it is that all seasons pay the same mf.

I don't think that's true. However you split up MFs, you have to either price them so high that basically the weeks you're viable pay for the rest of the weeks or you need to be viable for a certain large percentage of all weeks.

The developers got away with it by promoting the trading of timeshares which in itself is flawed if prime week owners don't trade.

Well, "got away with it" is one framing, it's also pretty clear that without some way to go to more than one location at one week each year, TS in general aren't viable now. However, with trading I think it's worked pretty well for me and many on TUG, you just have to actually book or trade.

 

[comicbookman]

It's interesting that the estimated sale price from Hilco across several resorts now seems to hover around $10 million. Could just be coincidence but that's an oddity IMHO.

I think that is just there go to number. They made a point of saying they would seek out a stalking horse bidder to set a bottom price and that the $10 million was just a gross estimate.

 

[jp10558]

Like others here, my concern is how this will affect availability in the future. There's definitely going to be fewer options in the NE within an easy driving distance.

I wonder if this is going to get rid of some of the pattern of people reserving weekends and push it more towards full weeks again - if I'm driving or flying to FL I'm not doing it for a weekend!

 

[shawnee83]

Heck, I'd seriously consider buying a unit in Crestview outright if the price was right - as is with everything included sitting in the unit - furniture and all.

But you'd still have to create some kind of HOA wouldn't you? We stayed in a Ridge Top unit that had been fully renovated (well at least the downstairs) and it would be worth owning too.

BTW what is "BKO?" I am thinking it has something to do with bankruptcy.

BIG THANKS to @comicbookman for posting that document! I especially like slides 14-17 which discuss potential steps following this current vote to authorize Chap 11 bankruptcy. I also like slide 23 which provides details on exactly what property is being discussed... I'm hoping to see something like that for Shawnee.

 

[shawnee83]

I wonder if this is going to get rid of some of the pattern of people reserving weekends and push it more towards full weeks again

Good question. I think Wyndham went to the points system to allow people to book less than a full week, thinking that would improve the situation... that is, get more people to sign up (and fork over $$$$)

 

[jp10558]

We got our fixed week in Shawnee toward the end of the timeshare craze. Shawnee was still very desirable then and you could even exchange "mud weeks" for other properties. But the whole exchange-your-week model is long gone.

I disagree - there's huge numbers of people exchanging in RCI all the time. A lot of Marriott owners exchange in II. Maybe you mean just that Shawnee isn't desirable anymore so doesn't exchange well.

 

[comicbookman]

Good question. I think Wyndham went to the points system to allow people to book less than a full week, thinking that would improve the situation.

I think Wyndham went to the points system to be able to charge the same amount for all seasons. No more red season premium, but also no more mud season discount. It allows them to charge prices more toward the red price than the mud price. the narrative that you can just book a weekend, certainly does not hurt sales though.

 

[jp10558]

Again, each individual HOA is responsible for making and communicating their decisions and plans, not Wyndham! The process has to play out and that takes time. I understand you’re frustrated but that doesn’t mean Wyndham should circumvent the process and do an end run around the HOAs. That would become an even larger legal mess, would it not?

As for people losing money on cancelled, non-refundable reservations,…with the low occupancy rates at the resorts, travel insurance, and refundable reservations, I would think the number of people losing a significant amount of money would be very low and I’m not sure what could have been done differently to prevent that from happening other than preventing reservations before the final decisions were made. Do I believe that Wyndham has been working on this for many months, possibly years? Of course I do. They knew WHAT they wanted/needed to do, but they didn’t know HOW they were going to do it. That took Wyndham, their attorneys, the real estate team, and all the different HOAs working together to define the process and then execute the process. That is happening now and everyone just has to be patient and let it play out.

I still maintain that Wyndham could have said they are planning to leave a year before they let anyone know. The HOAs whose boards Wyndham often controlled could have let owners know that they were having a LOT of non-performing weeks 10 years ago if that's when they knew there was an issue. Companies announce big plans in advance of having it ready to / guaranteed to execute ALL THE TIME.

 

[comicbookman]

I still maintain that Wyndham could have said they are planning to leave a year before they let anyone know. The HOAs whose boards Wyndham often controlled could have let owners know that they were having a LOT of non-performing weeks 10 years ago if that's when they knew there was an issue. Companies announce big plans in advance of having it ready to / guaranteed to execute ALL THE TIME.

I don't think the HOA boards kept it a secret that there were non-performing weeks 10 years ago. In fact, I would bet that they publicly mentioned the deal with Wyndham to take on those weeks. I would think it required a vote. And yes companies announce things ahead of doing them all the time, however they typically don't announce things their lawyers tell them not to announce.

 

[HitchHiker71]

But you'd still have to create some kind of HOA wouldn't you? We stayed in a Ridge Top unit that had been fully renovated (well at least the downstairs) and it would be worth owning too.

BTW what is "BKO?" I am thinking it has something to do with bankruptcy.

BIG THANKS to @comicbookman for posting that document! I especially like slides 14-17 which discuss potential steps following this current vote to authorize Chap 11 bankruptcy. I also like slide 23 which provides details on exactly what property is being discussed... I'm hoping to see something like that for Shawnee.

If Shawnee becomes privately owned condos then yes the current HOA would have to be "moved" or deconstructed and reconstructed either as part of the BKO proceedings, or subsequently after sale of the property.

BKO is just an abbreviation for bankruptcy - it's something I picked up during my law firm days - a very commonly used abbreviation within the legal community.

 

[Arimaas]

It is top driven, but bottom executed. There is a difference between driving and executing. The law firm being used is very large and very experienced. I have no doubt they are controlling when things happen and who says what. Do I like it and wish there was more communication and care given to prevent people getting screwed on 2026 reservations? Of course I don't like it. But disliking it does not mean it could have been done differently. I dislike the Electoral college, but it is the law, so we are stuck with it. Same goes for this process. They have to do things by the book.

What book is that? I am not quite sure where it is written that there could not have been better customer service and communication, or a pop up warning when booking what may be coming. Does Chapter 11 spell out how timeshares stop taking reservations. This isn't the law, and to compare it to the Electoral College is disingenuous.

This broke what, in July? There may be folks who booked New Years plans that are now out of luck. Wyndham opted to leave us in the dark. That's fine, their prerogative. Again not that Wyndham cares (or others too, as some have been so kind to point out), but I am not going to be an apologist for them. They followed their lawyers advice for what they asked for. Had they wanted to do this with better communication and customer service, they could have told their lawyers to make a plan that includes that. I am certain of that. But they didn't. It wasn't their priority.

 

[HitchHiker71]

I think Wyndham went to the points system to be able to charge the same amount for all seasons. No more red season premium, but also no more mud season discount. It allows them to charge prices more toward the red price than the mud price. the narrative that you can just book a weekend, certainly does not hurt sales though.

This isn't accurate if I'm reading you right - the points based timeshare system has seasons just like the old weeks based system does. Those seasons charge fewer or greater amounts of points for the same units dependent upon seasonal demand. Here's one of the points charts from Wyndham Shawnee as an example:

 

[Arimaas]

Actually that's not entirely accurate based upon what we have seen actually play out. That's like saying that because Congress has a majority, they can simply behave as though a law has been passed, prior to it actually passing, or ignore laws currently in force, prior to passing legislation that changes those laws. That's not how these processes work. The fact remains, until the HOA voting processes actually transpire, Wyndham cannot alter the current environment based upon assumption. It's always possible that the bankruptcy proceedings for a particular resort do not play out as expected, and therefore that resort cannot be removed from the system at end of year. If Wyndham were to have removed that resort, and cancelled existing reservations, and then for whatever reason the resort doesn't actually exit the system, well, that would put Wyndham in a pretty big pickle IMHO. Their legal counsel is clearly advising Wyndham not to get ahead of the actual legal processes that are playing out. That is wise legal counsel. Does that negatively impact CSAT? Undoubtedly. Does legal counsel and/or the courts care about CSAT? Not one bit. We've already hashed all this out in past posts.

You're right, we discussed this many times over, and I am not privy to what you are with your Wyndham contacts, but I still think a pop up warning of what was to happen COULD have been put on as soon as the news broke. They let staff know they were going to be out of a job, right?

Wyndham has their lawyers figure out how to push the envelope of what is legal on the sales floor. The $1000/hour lawyers could have figured this out as well, if it was a priority. It wasn't. End of story. This is what we are left with. Sorry I opened Pandora's box, again.

EDIT: Wyndham hasn't even updated their statement about this since July or whenever the original was posted (you know the ridiculous statement comparing a timeshare to a cruise ship or plane that is end of life). That's fine, like I said. I know what the product is, I use it for what I want, and I also know what Wyndham thinks of us customers. It's OK, it's a mutually beneficial relationship. I just don't understand the apologists here.

 

[Arimaas]

Yes, there are plenty of reasons and they’ve been listed in this and the other thread, ad nauseum. You just choose to ignore them.

Just because someone disagrees with the reasoning you have posted, doesn't mean that this person is ignoring them. I have read your posts over and over giving the reasons, and I too, disagree. I am not ignoring.

 

[Rolltydr]

I still maintain that Wyndham could have said they are planning to leave a year before they let anyone know. The HOAs whose boards Wyndham often controlled could have let owners know that they were having a LOT of non-performing weeks 10 years ago if that's when they knew there was an issue. Companies announce big plans in advance of having it ready to / guaranteed to execute ALL THE TIME.

And, if they announce those plans before they are actually fully thought out, or at least ready to execute, what happens to public confidence in that company when those plans require major modifications or, possibly, cancellation? It craters and they have a huge PR mess on their hands, and in some cases, a huge financial problem, which is exactly what Wyndham is trying to avoid. Doing it this way, they have a few disgruntled owners, such as yourself, but the project is very well planned out with each entity performing their tasks on the project schedule in coordination with all the other players, including the HOA’s, real estate company, courts, in some cases, third party resort management companies, etc. Some don’t like it, but something tells me you wouldn’t like it regardless of the communication process.

 

[Rolltydr]

There may be folks who booked New Years plans that are no out of luck.

OMG! This is the true definition of a first world problem. A few people only found out 4-5 months in advance that they need to change their New Years Eve party reservations.

 

[dioxide45]

I hope to learn more at my Shawnee River Village Phase IIB "Special Meeting" on October 10th but that may be just the next step.

Are there two different associations here with a similar name? I notice your post and even the main tracker have IIB, but the documents I've seen so far indicate it is IIIB. Just want to verify if they are the same or two different associations.

 

[comicbookman]

This isn't accurate if I'm reading you right - the points based timeshare system has seasons just like the old weeks based system does. Those seasons charge fewer or greater amounts of points for the same units dependent upon seasonal demand. Here's one of the points charts from Wyndham Shawnee as an example:

View attachment 116924

Booking a resort absolutely still has seasons, but the points themselves don't. So the cost per point to buy is the same regardless of the season. Yes you need to buy more points if you want to stay in a red week, but ther is no stigma attatched to any given set of points as all points are potentially red week points.

 

[HitchHiker71]

Just because someone disagrees with the reasoning you have posted, doesn't mean that this person is ignoring them. I have read your posts over and over giving the reasons, and I too, disagree. I am not ignoring.

That same logic goes both ways, just saying. We aren't apologists simply because we are trying to see both sides and work toward better resolutions for all involved to the extent possible.

 

[Arimaas]

OMG! This is the true definition of a first world problem. A few people only found out 4-5 months in advance that they need to change their New Years Eve party reservations.

The whole thing is first world problems, doesn't mean they aren't problems. And no, plenty of people who aren't on TUG just found out within the last few weeks (you know end of September, early October) that their New Years plans are no more. I don't know why you feel the need to belittle and make snarky comments when it's something you disagree with.

 

[HitchHiker71]

Booking a resort absolutely still has seasons, but the points themselves don't. So the cost per point to buy is the same regardless of the season. Yes you need to buy more points if you want to stay in a red week, but ther is no stigma attatched to any given set of points as all points are potentially red week points.

Ah, yes that makes more sense. The total points allotments don't change - that's one of the biggest points that sales always emphasizes - points values stay the same! Unless you simply remove a bunch of resorts with collectively lower points values from the system...which likely results in owners having to purchase more points to take the same amounts of vacations moving forward via higher points value and newer resorts.

 

[Arimaas]

That same logic goes both ways, just saying. We aren't apologists simply because we are trying to see both sides and work toward better resolutions for all involved to the extent possible.

I concur. Like I said, I don't blame Wyndham for doing what they are doing. That's business. They chose the path that was best for them to the determent of their customers. Their prerogative and right. I'm not even upset. Like @Rolltydr was so kind to point out, this whole thing is first world problems. However, to keep saying "this is what they were told to do" and accept that on its face, to me, is disingenuous and ignores that fact that Wyndham chose this path.

 

[dioxide45]

As far as I can tell, the HOA is in fact independent from T&L/Wyndham but current conditions have driven them closer together.

They are legally independent, but not technically. Wyndham owns enough intervals to control the HOA, BOD and any vote. Many of the communications also indicate something along the lines, paraphrasing, "the required number of members have requested the special meeting". Those members are, if course, Wyndham. Wyndham can do whatever they want, carte blanche. Though they still have to go through the courts and the courts will at least help ensure that every owner is compensated for their ownership.

 

[dioxide45]

Using that thought process, you’re going to die someday. Why don’t we go ahead and bury you now? Same thing, right?

Straw man much?

 

[dioxide45]

Thanks for sharing these.

Interestingly, this process does empower the HOA to take intervals back prior to filing, much like the KBV process has. This is the first time I've seen that as part of the process in any of the "non-KBV" instances.

I wonder if that isn't something specifically written into the condominium declarations, thus requiring a vote. Perhaps other properties don't have certain restrictions about taking back intervals and don't require the vote. Is Wyndham planning to convey all their deeds to the individual HOAs to go down with the ship? Or is it just that they don't think there will be any proceeds and they want to avoid any additional liabilities.