Wyndham is closing a handful of legacy resorts - dedicated chart/tracker located in the first post for this unfolding set of events

[Twenty20]

Thanks for the summation - please keep us posted on any further developments. The comments from K&L are enlightening. Perhaps not new, but new for Wyndham. It's also interesting that unanimous owner consent is still required, but the courts can essentially override a minority that may vote against such measures. At least from the initial vote tallies you've shared, it seems like it's almost unanimous already, so this fact likely favors the court overriding a handful of reluctant interval owners. Advantage Wyndham.

EDIT: Your comment about MF delinquency increasing and Wyndham not wanting to take on more ownership for resort rescue made me follow up on what Wyndham actually meant by low owner occupancy since that's been a debate on this thread in the past, and it occurred to me that perhaps that phrase actually had nothing to do with resort occupancy, and it turns out what Wyndham actually meant was exactly what you're referring to with this statement. It's low resort ownership by actual owners as opposed to Wyndham taking on more and more ownership to bail out the HOA essentially. The Wyndham ELT basically made the decision that they are no longer willing to take on these liabilities, and the HOA would crumble if Wyndham were to stop doing so or force the HOAs to take back the unsold inventory and stop paying the MFs.

Correct. I speculated as much several weeks ago. Wyndham is in the business of selling timeshares, and these resorts aren't selling... So they are left holding an ever growing pile of inventory and the costs that go along with it. Has nothing to do with deferred maintenance or even low occupancy at the resorts (Oak Knoll @ FF Glade did an assessment a number of years back, and the units look better than they had for a long while, for example). It's that the people that do go there aren't interested in actually buying there (or buying more).

 

[Arimaas]

I’m sure we’ll be seeing quite a few mea culpas from those who were casting aspersions.

Not sure who is included in those “casting aspersions”, but I still maintain my position. This was handled poorly by Wyndham, from a communications standpoint, logistics standpoint and also the transparency about the process.

I’ve said all along, that doing this is a business decision for Wyndham to make, no problem with that. I understand that. Just be honest and open and don’t cancel people’s vacations after they spend money making non refundable plans.

 

[shawnee83]

We got our fixed week in Shawnee toward the end of the timeshare craze. Shawnee was still very desirable then and you could even exchange "mud weeks" for other properties. But the whole exchange-your-week model is long gone. Probably why Wyndham shifted to a "points" model. But the cost of buying into Wyndham points was way too expensive for existing fixed week owners so I guess that's where we are still around.

 

[Rolltydr]

Not sure who is included in those “casting aspersions”, but I still maintain my position. This was handled poorly by Wyndham, from a communications standpoint, logistics standpoint and also the transparency about the process.

I’ve said all along, that doing this is a business decision for Wyndham to make, no problem with that. I understand that. Just be honest and open and don’t cancel people’s vacations after they spend money making non refundable plans.

Again, each individual HOA is responsible for making and communicating their decisions and plans, not Wyndham! The process has to play out and that takes time. I understand you’re frustrated but that doesn’t mean Wyndham should circumvent the process and do an end run around the HOAs. That would become an even larger legal mess, would it not?

As for people losing money on cancelled, non-refundable reservations,…with the low occupancy rates at the resorts, travel insurance, and refundable reservations, I would think the number of people losing a significant amount of money would be very low and I’m not sure what could have been done differently to prevent that from happening other than preventing reservations before the final decisions were made. Do I believe that Wyndham has been working on this for many months, possibly years? Of course I do. They knew WHAT they wanted/needed to do, but they didn’t know HOW they were going to do it. That took Wyndham, their attorneys, the real estate team, and all the different HOAs working together to define the process and then execute the process. That is happening now and everyone just has to be patient and let it play out.

 

[dioxide45]

Again, each individual HOA is responsible for making and communicating their decisions and plans, not Wyndham! The process has to play out and that takes time. I understand you’re frustrated but that doesn’t mean Wyndham should circumvent the process and do an end run around the HOAs. That would become an even larger legal mess, would it not?

Didn't Wyndham already control the HOA/BOD, and given that they controlled the required number of votes, the vote result was already a foregone conclusion. The actual mailings and individual owner votes were just the process of going through the motions. There was nothing really stopping Wyndham from blocking new Club bookings earlier.

 

[Floridaman76]

Again, each individual HOA is responsible for making and communicating their decisions and plans, not Wyndham! The process has to play out and that takes time. I understand you’re frustrated but that doesn’t mean Wyndham should circumvent the process and do an end run around the HOAs. That would become an even larger legal mess, would it not?

As for people losing money on cancelled, non-refundable reservations,…with the low occupancy rates at the resorts, travel insurance, and refundable reservations, I would think the number of people losing a significant amount of money would be very low and I’m not sure what could have been done differently to prevent that from happening other than preventing reservations before the final decisions were made. Do I believe that Wyndham has been working on this for many months, possibly years? Of course I do. They knew WHAT they wanted/needed to do, but they didn’t know HOW they were going to do it. That took Wyndham, their attorneys, the real estate team, and all the different HOAs working together to define the process and then execute the process. That is happening now and everyone just has to be patient and let it play out.

What you conveniently leave out is that Wyndham is DRIVING this whole process. It may be true that the HOA's need to go through the motions but it's Wyndham who is initiating it, and in pretty much all of us except a handful of ";lawyer types" on here defending Wyndham for some reason, believe that Wyndham is hiding behind legalese and a "process" excuse to provide horrid customer service. The HOA's wouldn't be doing this if Wyndham wasn't telling them to.

The rest of your post is just ridiculous victim blaming. It's really crazy you say something like "it's your fault for not buying travel insurance"... literally WHO does that?

Have you ever actually done that yourself? I bet you were like me and were mad when Wyndham automatically opted you IN to that insurance in every booking and you had to remove it from your reservation manually

 

[schreff]

Again, each individual HOA is responsible for making and communicating their decisions and plans, not Wyndham! The process has to play out and that takes time. I understand you’re frustrated but that doesn’t mean Wyndham should circumvent the process and do an end run around the HOAs. That would become an even larger legal mess, would it not?

As for people losing money on cancelled, non-refundable reservations,…with the low occupancy rates at the resorts, travel insurance, and refundable reservations, I would think the number of people losing a significant amount of money would be very low and I’m not sure what could have been done differently to prevent that from happening other than preventing reservations before the final decisions were made. Do I believe that Wyndham has been working on this for many months, possibly years? Of course I do. They knew WHAT they wanted/needed to do, but they didn’t know HOW they were going to do it. That took Wyndham, their attorneys, the real estate team, and all the different HOAs working together to define the process and then execute the process. That is happening now and everyone just has to be patient and let it play out.

You state that each HOA is responsible for making decisions and not Wyndham which I respectfully disagree with for two reason. One is that there usually is no difference between the HOA and resort management being the same, Wyndham. Two, an interesting point is that if and when Chapter 11 is approved resort management i.e. Wyndham is " the debtor in possession " and will most likely control finances and budgets. Remember the reserve funds will apparently be transferred to general operating expense giving carte blanche control to Wyndham. Do owners feel comfortable with that considering the keeping in the dark syndrome we are experiencing now? Also, the simple fact is we don't know how much the legal expenses and other planned expenses including management fees will be. Has anyone seen their resorts financial statements and audits recently? The budget information owners get each year is worth little in determining financial position.

 

[Rolltydr]

You state that each HOA is responsible for making decisions and not Wyndham which I respectfully disagree with for two reason. One is that there usually is no difference between the HOA and resort management being the same, Wyndham. Two, an interesting point is that if and when Chapter 11 is approved resort management i.e. Wyndham is " the debtor in possession " and will most likely control finances and budgets. Remember the reserve funds will apparently be transferred to general operating expense giving carte blanche control to Wyndham. Do owners feel comfortable with that considering the keeping in the dark syndrome we are experiencing now? Also, the simple fact is we don't know how much the legal expenses and other planned expenses including management fees will be. Has anyone seen their resorts financial statements and audits recently? The budget information owners get each year is worth little in determining financial position.

Does Wyndham have the most votes! Yes
Does Wyndham sanction and execute the elections? No

I am not aware of any elections in this country in which the results are announced prior to the votes being counted and certified? Is that what you want?

As for trusting Wyndham to use the money to wind down the resorts? Yes, I do. I have better things to do with my time.

 

[shawnee83]

As far as I can tell, the HOA is in fact independent from T&L/Wyndham but current conditions have driven them closer together. While it seems strange that so many of the letters people have shared from different resorts around Wyndham world are almost identical, that may be a reflection of the realities facing these kinds of properties.

The ability to buy, sell, rent, or swap timeshare assets (weeks/points/etc) over the internet has changed this game forever. If you look at Airbnb for comparison's sake, that company takes a small cut of every transaction. Wyndham can't survive on that model and they don't get ANY cut when people trade on the internet.

I hope to learn more at my Shawnee River Village Phase IIB "Special Meeting" on October 10th but that may be just the next step. Still a ways to go but I don't see anyone buying Shawnee to operate it as a timeshare/vacation club going forward.

 

[jp10558]

EDIT: Your comment about MF delinquency increasing and Wyndham not wanting to take on more ownership for resort rescue made me follow up on what Wyndham actually meant by low owner occupancy since that's been a debate on this thread in the past, and it occurred to me that perhaps that phrase actually had nothing to do with resort occupancy, and it turns out what Wyndham actually meant was exactly what you're referring to with this statement. It's low resort ownership by actual owners as opposed to Wyndham taking on more and more ownership to bail out the HOA essentially. The Wyndham ELT basically made the decision that they are no longer willing to take on these liabilities, and the HOA would crumble if Wyndham were to stop doing so or force the HOAs to take back the unsold inventory and stop paying the MFs.

Though I think in one way this is self inflicted or at least a symptom of the current industry system. What I mean is Wyndham couldn't sell these intervals because they insist on "insane developer prices" for what are essentially resales. My vibe is as a closer offer to some people saying "no" on $25k-$90k "desirable locations" might well still see value in the stuff all us resale talk about in terms of buying as essentially a "trader" (though yes, they're still getting shafted a bit on MF/pt in some cases) if the "alternate offer" was $4k-$8k buy in say at these places. I mean at all sales centers. Maybe I'm wrong, and there isn't some bulk of people they currently just lose that would say yes on a better deal on these hard to move properties. I just can't see why it wouldn't be the case. Heck, if they were coded as developer and eligible for VIP etc, even some TUG people might jump on that at only a 3x premium over common resale of vaguely desirable properties.

 

[paxsarah]

Again, each individual HOA is responsible for making and communicating their decisions and plans, not Wyndham!

That's only part of it.

Wyndham put an announcement on its website within days of word getting out about these closures.
Wyndham has to shut off booking on the owner website.
Wyndham has put messages up on the home pages of the resorts who have voted to close.
Wyndham has called owners with reservations at those resorts to cancel them.
Wyndham will be the one to send the information about the swap offer to the owners at those resorts.

It's a bit disingenuous to imply this is a bottom-up process driven by the HOAs. This was top-down from the very start.

 

[Rolltydr]

That's only part of it.

Wyndham put an announcement on its website within days of word getting out about these closures.
Wyndham has to shut off booking on the owner website.
Wyndham has put messages up on the home pages of the resorts who have voted to close.
Wyndham has called owners with reservations at those resorts to cancel them.
Wyndham will be the one to send the information about the swap offer to the owners at those resorts.

It's a bit disingenuous to imply this is a bottom-up process driven by the HOAs. This was top-down from the very start.

Yes, all those things are part of the process. They are happening in the defined schedule of the project and will continue in an orderly fashion in the project timeline. Both, Wyndham and the numerous HOAs, are responsible for certain tasks in that process.

 

[comicbookman]

That's only part of it.

Wyndham put an announcement on its website within days of word getting out about these closures.
Wyndham has to shut off booking on the owner website.
Wyndham has put messages up on the home pages of the resorts who have voted to close.
Wyndham has called owners with reservations at those resorts to cancel them.
Wyndham will be the one to send the information about the swap offer to the owners at those resorts.

It's a bit disingenuous to imply this is a bottom-up process driven by the HOAs. This was top-down from the very start.

It is top driven, but bottom executed. There is a difference between driving and executing. The law firm being used is very large and very experienced. I have no doubt they are controlling when things happen and who says what. Do I like it and wish there was more communication and care given to prevent people getting screwed on 2026 reservations? Of course I don't like it. But disliking it does not mean it could have been done differently. I dislike the Electoral college, but it is the law, so we are stuck with it. Same goes for this process. They have to do things by the book.

 

[jp10558]

thank you for this summary, it is extremely enlightning! (400/week...whew...betting a ton of people were expecting a whole lot more than that)

Yea, one friend of the family I was discussing this with did think that there should be property appreciation, and of course there are all the conspiracy thoughts about why the sales price would work out so low, but it does seem in line with "non-viable TS resort" to me...

 

[comicbookman]

Just got the slide decks from the Glade Stone castle HOA meeting. This includes the agenda and a couple of HOA slides, the law firm (K&L) presentation and the real estate firm (Hilco) presentation. These are just the slides, no narration or Q&A. See attachment.

Edit to add: the Hilco slides do not contain the $10 million sale price estimate. That was presented in answer to a verbal question.

 

[HitchHiker71]

Didn't Wyndham already control the HOA/BOD, and given that they controlled the required number of votes, the vote result was already a foregone conclusion. The actual mailings and individual owner votes were just the process of going through the motions. There was nothing really stopping Wyndham from blocking new Club bookings earlier.

Actually that's not entirely accurate based upon what we have seen actually play out. That's like saying that because Congress has a majority, they can simply behave as though a law has been passed, prior to it actually passing, or ignore laws currently in force, prior to passing legislation that changes those laws. That's not how these processes work. The fact remains, until the HOA voting processes actually transpire, Wyndham cannot alter the current environment based upon assumption. It's always possible that the bankruptcy proceedings for a particular resort do not play out as expected, and therefore that resort cannot be removed from the system at end of year. If Wyndham were to have removed that resort, and cancelled existing reservations, and then for whatever reason the resort doesn't actually exit the system, well, that would put Wyndham in a pretty big pickle IMHO. Their legal counsel is clearly advising Wyndham not to get ahead of the actual legal processes that are playing out. That is wise legal counsel. Does that negatively impact CSAT? Undoubtedly. Does legal counsel and/or the courts care about CSAT? Not one bit. We've already hashed all this out in past posts.

 

[HitchHiker71]

You state that each HOA is responsible for making decisions and not Wyndham which I respectfully disagree with for two reason. One is that there usually is no difference between the HOA and resort management being the same, Wyndham. Two, an interesting point is that if and when Chapter 11 is approved resort management i.e. Wyndham is " the debtor in possession " and will most likely control finances and budgets. Remember the reserve funds will apparently be transferred to general operating expense giving carte blanche control to Wyndham. Do owners feel comfortable with that considering the keeping in the dark syndrome we are experiencing now? Also, the simple fact is we don't know how much the legal expenses and other planned expenses including management fees will be. Has anyone seen their resorts financial statements and audits recently? The budget information owners get each year is worth little in determining financial position.

Typically during any BKO proceeding there's an appointee, called the U.S. Trustee, that oversees any/all financial aspects in an ongoing fashion. So carte blanche isn't given to anyone, the entire process is overseen by an objective third party to ensure no one player can abuse the system during the BKO proceedings.

 

[jp10558]

I believe these closings may be the future of most resorts. As owners get old and die off, the points or weeks will find there way back to the resort and if they can't sell them, the resort will die and need to be sold. That is why I believe DVC did it right with RTU for a specific time and not permanent ownership.

I still think this is a major symptom of no plan for generational turnover. What I said above, the real problem is not having a realistic HOA / developer selling price on turned over deeds. We see independent resorts apparently do well with direct give aways of foreclosed weeks or "resale like" pricing around $1,500 or less for a more desirable week.

I'm not sure straight RTU for a limited time is that great a pitch without also pro-rating purchase costs each year closer to shut down. Though many do think that memberships as opposed to ownerships would be the best thing, IDK how big the market is for $25k+ "memberships". Though some Mexican resorts make it work.

 

[HitchHiker71]

Does Wyndham have the most votes! Yes
Does Wyndham sanction and execute the elections? No

I am not aware of any elections in this country in which the results are announced prior to the votes being counted and certified? Is that what you want?

As for trusting Wyndham to use the money to wind down the resorts? Yes, I do. I have better things to do with my time.

The appointed U.S. Trustee during the Chapter 11 BKO proceedings will audit and review the financials throughout the entire reorganization and liquidation process.

 

[Rolltydr]

Didn't Wyndham already control the HOA/BOD, and given that they controlled the required number of votes, the vote result was already a foregone conclusion. The actual mailings and individual owner votes were just the process of going through the motions. There was nothing really stopping Wyndham from blocking new Club bookings earlier.

Using that thought process, you’re going to die someday. Why don’t we go ahead and bury you now? Same thing, right?

 

[jp10558]

I’m sure we’ll be seeing quite a few mea culpas from those who were casting aspersions.

I maintain most of my aspersions - that the communication, timelines, and leaving bookings of most people to be cancelled with little warning were all abysmal. There's still no reason it had to be scheduled this tight, managed this secretly for so long.

 

[HitchHiker71]

As far as I can tell, the HOA is in fact independent from T&L/Wyndham but current conditions have driven them closer together. While it seems strange that so many of the letters people have shared from different resorts around Wyndham world are almost identical, that may be a reflection of the realities facing these kinds of properties.

The letters were generated by the representative law firm - from a template. That same firm is representing all impacted resorts/HOAs.

The ability to buy, sell, rent, or swap timeshare assets (weeks/points/etc) over the internet has changed this game forever. If you look at Airbnb for comparison's sake, that company takes a small cut of every transaction. Wyndham can't survive on that model and they don't get ANY cut when people trade on the internet.

I hope to learn more at my Shawnee River Village Phase IIB "Special Meeting" on October 10th but that may be just the next step. Still a ways to go but I don't see anyone buying Shawnee to operate it as a timeshare/vacation club going forward.

It's possible a 2nd/3rd tier timeshare system could scoop up Wyndham Shawnee. It's also possible it could be converted over to private condos. Heck, I'd seriously consider buying a unit in Crestview outright if the price was right - as is with everything included sitting in the unit - furniture and all.

 

[Rolltydr]

I maintain most of my aspersions - that the communication, timelines, and leaving bookings of most people to be cancelled with little warning were all abysmal. There's still no reason it had to be scheduled this tight, managed this secretly for so long.

Yes, there are plenty of reasons and they’ve been listed in this and the other thread, ad nauseum. You just choose to ignore them.

 

[bnoble]

Just got the slide decks from the Glade Stone castle HOA meeting.

Thanks for sharing these.

Interestingly, this process does empower the HOA to take intervals back prior to filing, much like the KBV process has. This is the first time I've seen that as part of the process in any of the "non-KBV" instances.

 

[HitchHiker71]

Just got the slide decks from the Glade Stone castle HOA meeting. This includes the agenda and a couple of HOA slides, the law firm (K&L) presentation and the real estate firm (Hilco) presentation. These are just the slides, no narration or Q&A. See attachment.

Edit to add: the Hilco slides do not contain the $10 million sale price estimate. That was presented in answer to a verbal question.

Thanks for sharing, great info! It's interesting that the estimated sale price from Hilco across several resorts now seems to hover around $10 million. Could just be coincidence but that's an oddity IMHO.