Wyndham is closing a handful of legacy resorts - dedicated chart/tracker located in the first post for this unfolding set of events

[pedro47]

Is Wyndham in financial trouble ? Do they owe a large amount of dollars to a hedge company?

 

[Jan M.]

Yeah, it will be interesting to see what they do. 184 units (the exact number of units in bldgs 20,21,23 and 25) of a total of 451 units at Star Island (as I calculate based on my prior post) are under this bankruptcy.

Edited: Prior post is https://tugbbs.com/forums/threads/w...s-unfolding-set-of-events.375888/post-3209912

If my math is correct that means 40.8% of the units at Star Island are Wyndham units. Since some people do have units in other buildings hopefully you'll all keep us updated about what happens with those soon to be no longer Wyndham units and how this impacts the resort.

You and regatta333 are different situation than the owners in the Wyndham buildings. Not sure if any of the other resorts also have owners in your situation. Hopefully someone in Wyndham will explain to you whether or not you'll still have Wyndham points. My initial thought was you would've made a Fairfield or Wyndham purchase to convert your week so why wouldn't you still have your Wyndham points? However, Wyndham might not see it that way. This is uncharted territory so who knows!

 

[jp10558]

Which is why the bankruptcy approach is being used - it bypasses these types of concerns/issues for the most part.

It seems to me that this is quite the end run around normal property law and the CC&Rs or declarations or whatever contracts there were that everyone else was operating under. I'm not a lawyer either so this is my opinion only. The HOA, not in financial distress, is declaring Chapter 11 to effectively force like a partition action without doing that actually in court, such that they can force a group of property owners to sell. This makes me glad that I continue to avoid ever ever ever living in an HOA. To a layperson, the HOA is kinda like a private town or something - yet I would be astonished if a town going bankrupt could force all people living in that town to sell their properties to make up for that. But this is even less like that in that the HOAs aren't insolvent, and at least one says they're financially strong.

I'm sure one reason each one will be somewhat unique is that I feel like at least some jurisdictions and judges will look at this and flatly say - the HOA isn't insolvent and this is just trying to avoid the rules that are in the documents.

AI at least thinks that Timeshare HOAs in the US are basically the same as any other HOA, just over a different sort of property ownership. Maybe this is wrong, but like @dioxide45 says, I can't find any indication of that, and any differences seem like they have to be contractual. Looking at generic HOA bankruptcy, it is possible, but in no place have I found any claim that the HOA can directly force a sale of any property that it just manages, only properties that it owns. What they could do is levy special assessments to become solvent again. However, it seems like most of the letters we've seen so far don't mention immediate financial distress, just that there would be assessments for capital improvements.

Now, it's all well and good to say "well, we know if we levy the special assessment 'everyone will default' and then we will be insolvent" but it still seems to me like that would have to actually happen, not just a future prediction. On the other hand, if Wyndham owns enough of the property to pass the votes to sell, then I'm still at why not just do that.

I guess I just keep coming back to - why would a court want to intervene here when there's existing systems in place to deal with these eventualities - that it seems like Wyndham is mostly following anyway. I suppose according to this:

https://www.reuters.com/legal/litigation/debtors-without-cause-whether-non-distressed-entities-can-access-bankruptcy-2024-07-09/#:~:text=Financial%20distress%3A,109%20of

It's split, so the locations of the HOAs will make a huge difference - if anyone bothers to challenge them. And this brings me to what I think is happening - Wyndham is actually betting that no one will care enough to challenge this so whether it's legal or not doesn't make that much difference. But I would keep it in mind that maybe the CC&Rs or declarations might be a lot less binding than we thought, at least if you get enough pull on the HOA.

 

[comicbookman]

It seems to me that this is quite the end run around normal property law and the CC&Rs or declarations or whatever contracts there were that everyone else was operating under. I'm not a lawyer either so this is my opinion only. The HOA, not in financial distress, is declaring Chapter 11 to effectively force like a partition action without doing that actually in court, such that they can force a group of property owners to sell. This makes me glad that I continue to avoid ever ever ever living in an HOA. To a layperson, the HOA is kinda like a private town or something - yet I would be astonished if a town going bankrupt could force all people living in that town to sell their properties to make up for that. But this is even less like that in that the HOAs aren't insolvent, and at least one says they're financially strong.

I'm sure one reason each one will be somewhat unique is that I feel like at least some jurisdictions and judges will look at this and flatly say - the HOA isn't insolvent and this is just trying to avoid the rules that are in the documents.

AI at least thinks that Timeshare HOAs in the US are basically the same as any other HOA, just over a different sort of property ownership. Maybe this is wrong, but like @dioxide45 says, I can't find any indication of that, and any differences seem like they have to be contractual. Looking at generic HOA bankruptcy, it is possible, but in no place have I found any claim that the HOA can directly force a sale of any property that it just manages, only properties that it owns. What they could do is levy special assessments to become solvent again. However, it seems like most of the letters we've seen so far don't mention immediate financial distress, just that there would be assessments for capital improvements.

Now, it's all well and good to say "well, we know if we levy the special assessment 'everyone will default' and then we will be insolvent" but it still seems to me like that would have to actually happen, not just a future prediction. On the other hand, if Wyndham owns enough of the property to pass the votes to sell, then I'm still at why not just do that.

I guess I just keep coming back to - why would a court want to intervene here when there's existing systems in place to deal with these eventualities - that it seems like Wyndham is mostly following anyway. I suppose according to this:

https://www.reuters.com/legal/litigation/debtors-without-cause-whether-non-distressed-entities-can-access-bankruptcy-2024-07-09/#:~:text=Financial%20distress%3A,109%20of

It's split, so the locations of the HOAs will make a huge difference - if anyone bothers to challenge them. And this brings me to what I think is happening - Wyndham is actually betting that no one will care enough to challenge this so whether it's legal or not doesn't make that much difference. But I would keep it in mind that maybe the CC&Rs or declarations might be a lot less binding than we thought, at least if you get enough pull on the HOA.

The main difference between a normal HOA and a time share HOA is the HOA facilitates the sharing of units. Without a functioning HOA that sharing is virtually impossible. So, the HOA's are mentioned in the deed and are a condition of ownership (oversimplification but basically correct). That is how you get to forced deed sales. That is what AI misses.

 

[Greg G]

If my math is correct that means 40.8% of the units at Star Island are Wyndham units. Since some people do have units in other buildings hopefully you'll all keep us updated about what happens with those soon to be no longer Wyndham units and how this impacts the resort.

You and regatta333 are different situation than the owners in the Wyndham buildings. Not sure if any of the other resorts also have owners in your situation. Hopefully someone in Wyndham will explain to you whether or not you'll still have Wyndham points. My initial thought was you would've made a Fairfield or Wyndham purchase to convert your week so why wouldn't you still have your Wyndham points? However, Wyndham might not see it that way. This is uncharted territory so who knows!

Now that I look at it again possibly three of those 3 story units may contain more than 11 units each so probably more than 451 units (hard to tell from the google maps 3D view). I might ask the owners services for the exact number, but yes, at most 40% (and probably less) are involved in the bankruptcy.

 

[Greg G]

You and regatta333 are different situation than the owners in the Wyndham buildings. Not sure if any of the other resorts also have owners in your situation. Hopefully someone in Wyndham will explain to you whether or not you'll still have Wyndham points. My initial thought was you would've made a Fairfield or Wyndham purchase to convert your week so why wouldn't you still have your Wyndham points? However, Wyndham might not see it that way. This is uncharted territory so who knows!

Just to be clear. I own a fixed week at Star Island not associated with Wyndham in any manner. regatta333 appears to own a week associated with Wyndham but not part of the bankruptcy.

 

[shawnee83]

Just received a letter from the River Village IIIB HOA at Shawnee. We are legacy fixed-week owners, never bought into Wyndham.

Materials sound very similar to others described in this forum. There is a proxy request, written by lawyers for lawyers, so I have only a vague notion of what they are trying to say. There is a Meeting Notice which basically says that even though the HOA is in good shape now, there are all kinds of expenses coming up, occupancy is low, and it is time to fold.

I don't think there is any mention of Wyndham anywhere. We were at our week this summer and went to the sales pitch to get an extra week. They made various statements about Shawnee ending its relationship with Wyndham, but I didn't get the idea they were going bankrupt or closing... but that would be a very stupid thing to say to somebody you're trying to fleece for $25K or more.

I have no idea how much of the "resort" is included in River Village IIIB, but I am pretty sure there are numerous other HOAs. Another person noted that this may be why Wyndham wants to get out.

I'm going to the meeting on 20 October... so happens we got an extra week and will be up there anyway. I don't expect to learn much but maybe they'll let a few tidbits slip.

 

[Floridaman76]

River Village is in play too? I thought the word was that there were 2 HOA's at Shawnee leaving and those two were Crestview and Ridge Top.

 

[dioxide45]

It seems to me that this is quite the end run around normal property law and the CC&Rs or declarations or whatever contracts there were that everyone else was operating under. I'm not a lawyer either so this is my opinion only. The HOA, not in financial distress, is declaring Chapter 11 to effectively force like a partition action without doing that actually in court, such that they can force a group of property owners to sell. This makes me glad that I continue to avoid ever ever ever living in an HOA. To a layperson, the HOA is kinda like a private town or something - yet I would be astonished if a town going bankrupt could force all people living in that town to sell their properties to make up for that. But this is even less like that in that the HOAs aren't insolvent, and at least one says they're financially strong.

I'm sure one reason each one will be somewhat unique is that I feel like at least some jurisdictions and judges will look at this and flatly say - the HOA isn't insolvent and this is just trying to avoid the rules that are in the documents.

AI at least thinks that Timeshare HOAs in the US are basically the same as any other HOA, just over a different sort of property ownership. Maybe this is wrong, but like @dioxide45 says, I can't find any indication of that, and any differences seem like they have to be contractual. Looking at generic HOA bankruptcy, it is possible, but in no place have I found any claim that the HOA can directly force a sale of any property that it just manages, only properties that it owns. What they could do is levy special assessments to become solvent again. However, it seems like most of the letters we've seen so far don't mention immediate financial distress, just that there would be assessments for capital improvements.

Now, it's all well and good to say "well, we know if we levy the special assessment 'everyone will default' and then we will be insolvent" but it still seems to me like that would have to actually happen, not just a future prediction. On the other hand, if Wyndham owns enough of the property to pass the votes to sell, then I'm still at why not just do that.

I guess I just keep coming back to - why would a court want to intervene here when there's existing systems in place to deal with these eventualities - that it seems like Wyndham is mostly following anyway. I suppose according to this:

https://www.reuters.com/legal/litigation/debtors-without-cause-whether-non-distressed-entities-can-access-bankruptcy-2024-07-09/#:~:text=Financial%20distress%3A,109%20of

It's split, so the locations of the HOAs will make a huge difference - if anyone bothers to challenge them. And this brings me to what I think is happening - Wyndham is actually betting that no one will care enough to challenge this so whether it's legal or not doesn't make that much difference. But I would keep it in mind that maybe the CC&Rs or declarations might be a lot less binding than we thought, at least if you get enough pull on the HOA.

It's a lost cause dude. I went through this already. There seem to be a few people here that think it's okay to utilize government to trample on property ownership rights simply because it might be convenient for how a big corporation wants to do business. Those same people must have been in favor of Kelo v. City of New London (2005)

 

[paxsarah]

I saw a very brief comment from a Bay Voyage owner who said they got their letter yesterday. No details at all (it was just a quick comment on a post that was otherwise about Patriots' Place).

See if you can get any additional info and please post it back here if you can. I'm "light" on info on the two Newport area RI resorts to date.

The Bay Voyage meeting is October 13, and she mentioned the verbiage in the letter is basically the same as others have posted from other resorts.

 

[ThomasinaTimeTRP]

You know that, and I know that, and most of the people posting in this thread know that.

But most wyndham owners don't.

It'll be great when we start getting reports from people saying "the salesperson at brand X told me Wyndham is going bankrupt and showed me a list of resorts that have already closed and said if I didn't trade in my wyndham plus $40k I'd be liable for an entire resort's debts!?!?"

I went to an update at SeaWatch plantation this summer, and learned that my resorts were being sold, and " I was going to have nothing". Now, even though I didn't know anything about the resorts closing, I certainly knew they were lying about some things, and wasn't going to jump on their $150K offer to take my 500K points that were going to turn into nothing, and have new points. Yeah. I passed on their deal, went back to my condo, rejoined tug, and have been learning the truth. Can you imagine the poor souls who are rebuying their points when they could just educate themselves, and receive a free points swap. It is unethical.

 

[ThomasinaTimeTRP]

I received the Chapter 11 proxy ballot from Sea Palms a few days ago. I own two units at Orlando International Resort Club and one at Sea Palms ocean ridge, so it looks like I will have all CWA points if I accept the swap, which I'm inclined to do. I assume I'll keep my gold status, even though the benefits aren't fabulous, I do have them vs buying points on ebay.

 

[shawnee83]

River Village is in play too? I thought the word was that there were 2 HOA's at Shawnee leaving and those two were Crestview and Ridge Top.

All I can say is we own a fixed week in River Village and got this notice. We always called it "River Village II" but according to the paperwork we are part of "River Village IIB" and I don't know what other parts of Shawnee are included in RVIIIB or what other HOAs there are.

I am still trying to decipher this proxy statement. It seems like the HOA and Wyndham are two separate entities but they do have connections, at least in terms of the HOA "employing" Wyndham to operate and manage the property. There are other posts in this thread which seem to describe very similar situations, that is, Wyndham wants to get out and the HOA seeks to declare bankruptcy due to massive expenses in the next few years.

I think I know Ridge Top but not sure where Crestview is. I think of the place as units which are between the "community center" and the river, and other places which are generally uphill from the community center. RIdge Top is definitely uphill and there are some other areas up there as well including a couple that are more like hotels or apartments as opposed to the townhouse style.

 

[seascapemvy]

All I can say is we own a fixed week in River Village and got this notice. We always called it "River Village II" but according to the paperwork we are part of "River Village IIB" and I don't know what other parts of Shawnee are included in RVIIIB or what other HOAs there are.

I am still trying to decipher this proxy statement. It seems like the HOA and Wyndham are two separate entities but they do have connections, at least in terms of the HOA "employing" Wyndham to operate and manage the property. There are other posts in this thread which seem to describe very similar situations, that is, Wyndham wants to get out and the HOA seeks to declare bankruptcy due to massive expenses in the next few years.

I think I know Ridge Top but not sure where Crestview is. I think of the place as units which are between the "community center" and the river, and other places which are generally uphill from the community center. RIdge Top is definitely uphill and there are some other areas up there as well including a couple that are more like hotels or apartments as opposed to the townhouse style.

I hope Shawnee survives as a timeshare. Even without Wyndham managing it I would like to trade in or rent as an extra vacation. I am really confused about what may or may not stay open. During my Labor Day stay we went to an update. They said Crestview was owned by Wyndham and likely to stay open. As a result I switched my 2026 vacations to Crestview. Now I think that may have been just a waste of time. I have a bad feeling that Wyndham has taken control of all the HOAs and will sell it off. If they do own the majority and basically got their ownership for free as deed backs, then selling it off would result in a big profit and since many existing owners will trade their points for CWA points to keep their VIP benefits, it will be an even larger profit.

 

[shawnee83]

During my Labor Day stay we went to an update. They said Crestview was owned by Wyndham and likely to stay open. As a result I switched my 2026 vacations to Crestview. Now I think that may have been just a waste of time.

We first heard that something was up when we attended a sales pitch back in August. I did not trust anything the salespeople told me. They were pushing hard for us to buy points based on our fixed week, said it might be the last chance to do it, and they provided some generic statement that was not on letterhead, nor did it say anything specific about Shawnee. I now see it is the statement from Club Wyndham that can be found on page 1 of this thread.

 

[Jan M.]

Has Bentley Brook sent out the letters? Is there a meeting to vote scheduled or did it already happen? Someone asked me and I'm not seeing anything on the chart.

 

[GT1]

Today, Oct. 4, we just received our letter from Glade - Wellington HOA. The meeting will be held Friday, October 10, at 11am CT and can be attended both in-person and virtually via "zoom." We are considering attending (virtually) and hope to pass along any news. Here's a PDF with photos of the complete letter/packet sent to us - a total of 8 legal sized pages - in case anyone wanted to peruse the exact wording, similar to what many have reported receiving. Just as an aside notice the budgets shown on pages 4 and 5 - one is the proposed budget with "full" operations, the other is with "limited" operations. Am I right in thinking that this would indicate there might still be a required amount to be paid by owners in 2026?

 

[shawnee83]

Today, Oct. 4, we just received our letter from Glade - Wellington HOA.

The materials we got from Shawnee ("River Village Phase IIIB") are very similar. They have a different list of very expensive improvements that need to be made but overall it is the same package.

Both "Meeting Notice" letters say that the required number of members have asked the Board of Directors to initiate this action. Wonder who those members were and how many were required.

I only scanned the first page but that should be enough to show that this is most likely a coordinated effort led by Wyndham. Note that the law firm retained is K&L Gates LLP and a footnote identifies them as having been hired by Travel & Leisure in other matters.

 

[shawnee83]

Is Wyndham in financial trouble ? Do they owe a large amount of dollars to a hedge company?

Should we be asking about Travel & Leisure (stock symbol TNL) instead of Wyndham? I think TNL now runs Club Wyndham along with a number of other similar brands. Go to travelandleisureco-dot-com for details.

We bought a fixed week at Shawnee on the resale market back in 2001. A couple years later, Fairfield bought Shawnee and I guess that morphed into Club Wyndham. Sometime in the past year or two, Club Wyndham became Travel & Leisure, and TNL appears to be an independent entity from Wyndham Hotels & Resorts, Inc. (WH)

I saw an article on a finance website advising against buying TNL stock because of poor returns on capital investment and difficulty raising money. Maybe this is the motivation to clean up their portfolio and get out of resorts that will need a lot of investment going forward.

P.S. we got into the timeshare resale market through a friend, Kathy Holleger. Kathy passed away some years ago but she was very active on this board and some folks here may remember her.

 

[chapjim]

Today, Oct. 4, we just received our letter from Glade - Wellington HOA. The meeting will be held Friday, October 10, at 11am CT and can be attended both in-person and virtually via "zoom." We are considering attending (virtually) and hope to pass along any news. Here's a PDF with photos of the complete letter/packet sent to us - a total of 8 legal sized pages - in case anyone wanted to peruse the exact wording, similar to what many have reported receiving. Just as an aside notice the budgets shown on pages 4 and 5 - one is the proposed budget with "full" operations, the other is with "limited" operations. Am I right in thinking that this would indicate there might still be a required amount to be paid by owners in 2026?

Don't know about Glade but OIRC intends to transfer reserve funds to the general operating fund to take care of the reduced maintenance in 2026.

 

[afk324]

The materials we got from Shawnee ("River Village Phase IIIB") are very similar. They have a different list of very expensive improvements that need to be made but overall it is the same package.

Both "Meeting Notice" letters say that the required number of members have asked the Board of Directors to initiate this action. Wonder who those members were and how many were required.

I only scanned the first page but that should be enough to show that this is most likely a coordinated effort led by Wyndham. Note that the law firm retained is K&L Gates LLP and a footnote identifies them as having been hired by Travel & Leisure in other matters.

Letter content: The Property governed by the association consists of 25 Buildings ( containing 132 units )and their concomitant common areas at the Shawnee Village Planned Residential Development located #1 Buttermilk Falls Road . Are there a total of 132 units within the River Village 2 complex?