Email from MVC about use of club points

[igopogo]

I received an email reminder that reservations using club points cannot be rented. I’m curious whether others have received the same email recently.

 

[jmhpsu93]

Considering that has been a big selling tactic for a few years now, that would be a really disturbing development.

I didn't receive anything and I rent out a couple of points reservations a year.

 

[dioxide45]

Perhaps you could share the text of the email? I know we've seen rumblings of this in the past, changes to guest name change procedures. Wasn't there another email in the past too?

 

[Dean]

I received an email reminder that reservations using club points cannot be rented. I’m curious whether others have received the same email recently.

Yes please posts the details. Are you renting multiple reservations recurrently? I do not see an exclusion related to renting in general. I do see an exclusion related to a pattern c/w commercial renting.

Considering that has been a big selling tactic for a few years now, that would be a really disturbing development.

I didn't receive anything and I rent out a couple of points reservations a year.

IMO the sales hype is irrelevant, they hype things all the time that are not appropriate, not feasible and at times, not allowed.

 

[daviator]

IMO the sales hype is irrelevant, they hype things all the time that are not appropriate, not feasible and at times, not allowed.

Perhaps not irrelevant, I could see a big class action lawsuit with lots of owners testifying to the promises made by sales thst they could cover their MF costs or even make a profit by renting. Yes, the contracts say “only the promises made in writing count” but I doubt that a court would give them a pass on a pervasive pattern of blatant lying if that’s what could be shown to have occurred.

I am not proposing or suggesting such a suit, but MVC has always walked a rather wide gray line on renting. Any attempt to sharpen that line in a way that harms owners may invite a response from those impacted.

 

[dioxide45]

Perhaps not irrelevant, I could see a big class action lawsuit with lots of owners testifying to the promises made by sales thst they could cover their MF costs or even make a profit by renting. Yes, the contracts say “only the promises made in writing count” but I doubt that a court would give them a pass on a pervasive pattern of blatant lying if that’s what could be shown to have occurred.

I am not proposing or suggesting such a suit, but MVC has always walked a rather wide gray line on renting. Any attempt to sharpen that line in a way that harms owners may invite a response from those impacted.

We've seen similar actions in the past with other developers and threats of lawsuits. Not much ever happens, just some huffing and puffing but no actual action.

 

[daviator]

We've seen similar actions in the past with other developers and threats of lawsuits. Not much ever happens, just some huffing and puffing but no actual action.

I’m sure that’s what they are counting on.

But as someone who definitely got the hard sell (from Vistana, in my case) on how I could make money by buying and renting out, I am sympathetic to those who may have bought Club Points after similar pressure. In my case, the ability to rent was not really a significant part of any of my purchase decisions and I rent my ownership only rarely, but I do feel pretty strongly that I have the right to do so if I choose. I know there are people for whom renting was a major motivator for their purchase.

I also know that some have pretty significant rental businesses and may cross the “commercial use” line, a prohibition with which I have no argument if MVC wants to enforce. But given the promises made by Sales, I’ve always thought it was prudent of MVC to turn a blind eye to those who do occasional rentals. It will be interesting to see if that is changing.

 

[Dean]

Perhaps not irrelevant, I could see a big class action lawsuit with lots of owners testifying to the promises made by sales thst they could cover their MF costs or even make a profit by renting. Yes, the contracts say “only the promises made in writing count” but I doubt that a court would give them a pass on a pervasive pattern of blatant lying if that’s what could be shown to have occurred.

I am not proposing or suggesting such a suit, but MVC has always walked a rather wide gray line on renting. Any attempt to sharpen that line in a way that harms owners may invite a response from those impacted.

The written and signed contractual components say otherwise including that verbal representations are not binding. It'd be a very uphill battle to overcome that hurdle. It would be nearly impossible for them to enforce no renting but we've seen no indications they are going that direction anyway. I'll be curious as to the context or specifics of the posted email.

 

[BigDawgTUG]

The email that I received today is directed towards Grand Residence owners:

"As a Marriott Grand Residence Club®, Lake Tahoe, Member enrolled in Abound by Marriott Vacations™, you have the opportunity to elect your week(s) to receive Club Points each year.

As a reminder, reservations made at resort locations using elected Club Points may not be used for any commercial purpose, including, but not limited to, a pattern of rental activity. Doing so is a violation of the Exchange Procedures of the Abound exchange program.

This policy is in place to retain the availability of Club Points inventory for Abound Exchange Members and Owners."

It does not say that you cannot rent Club Point reservations from time to time, as it only warns against commercial rental activity, which they define as a pattern of rental activity.

 

[daviator]

The email that I received today is directed towards Grand Residence owners:

"As a Marriott Grand Residence Club®, Lake Tahoe, Member enrolled in Abound by Marriott Vacations™, you have the opportunity to elect your week(s) to receive Club Points each year.

As a reminder, reservations made at resort locations using elected Club Points may not be used for any commercial purpose, including, but not limited to, a pattern of rental activity. Doing so is a violation of the Exchange Procedures of the Abound exchange program.

This policy is in place to retain the availability of Club Points inventory for Abound Exchange Members and Owners."

It does not say that you cannot rent Club Point reservations from time to time, as it only warns against commercial rental activity, which they define as a pattern of rental activity.

It seems like they're continuing to walk the gray line they've established. "...commercial purpose...a pattern of rental activity". So occasional rental is probably fine, but if they see that you're regularly renting out Abound reservations they can call that "a pattern" or "commercial" and take action. So this doesn't seem like a change in policy to me. But I'll bet that property has a lot of rental activity and they are probably trying to put the fear of God into the most egregious renters.

 

[sponger76]

It seems like they're continuing to walk the gray line they've established. "...commercial purpose...a pattern of rental activity". So occasional rental is probably fine, but if they see that you're regularly renting out Abound reservations they can call that "a pattern" or "commercial" and take action. So this doesn't seem like a change in policy to me. But I'll bet that property has a lot of rental activity and they are probably trying to put the fear of God into the most egregious renters.

It also is specifically referencing elected points. I seem to recall previous discussions mentioning that trust points may have slightly less restrictive wording in the relevant documents. I could be wrong though, and I don't own any Abound trust points.

 

[daviator]

It also is specifically referencing elected points. I seem to recall previous discussions mentioning that trust points may have slightly less restrictive wording in the relevant documents. I could be wrong though, and I don't own any Abound trust points.

Good catch. You might be right, but I find it a bit amusing since many reservations are made with a combination of trust and elected points. The way the program is set up, few owners are going to differentiate between the two types of points and it's completely unclear which rules might apply if you are booking with a combination of both types.

That's partly why I suspect there are more threats than actual enforcement.

 

[Dean]

The email that I received today is directed towards Grand Residence owners:

"As a Marriott Grand Residence Club®, Lake Tahoe, Member enrolled in Abound by Marriott Vacations™, you have the opportunity to elect your week(s) to receive Club Points each year.

As a reminder, reservations made at resort locations using elected Club Points may not be used for any commercial purpose, including, but not limited to, a pattern of rental activity. Doing so is a violation of the Exchange Procedures of the Abound exchange program.

This policy is in place to retain the availability of Club Points inventory for Abound Exchange Members and Owners."

It does not say that you cannot rent Club Point reservations from time to time, as it only warns against commercial rental activity, which they define as a pattern of rental activity.

This is why I said it was important to understand the wording and/or context. Below is the wording from the Trust documents. The issue is the definition of commercial renting. I'm not sure that MVC has ever published formal thoughts on that division. DVC has similar wording and they only go after those that are CLEARLY renting large scale commercially. Given the wording it is implied that one has the right to rent on a limited basis. CLEARLY the $$$ amount rented is not a reasonable part of the equation. The wording here is c/w that posted below. Other than someone who is clearly running a business, it really is irrelevant IMO. The one issue it does call into question is buying to rent and cover the rest of the fees. The documentation I've seen for weeks has had similar language from what I recall. We'll see what info Igopogo provides from their email.

Personal Use; Commercial Purposes. Accommodations, Base Exchange Benefits, Base

Plus Exchange Benefits, Special Benefits, and Use Periods may not be used for any commercial purpose.

This prohibition on commercial use includes, but is not limited to, any illegal activity or a pattern of

occupancy, rental, leasing, or use by a Member that Exchange Company, in its reasonable discretion, could

conclude constitutes a commercial enterprise or practice. In the event a Member is determined to be

reserving or using the Accommodations, Base Exchange Benefits, Base Plus Exchange Benefits, Special

Benefits, and Use Periods for any commercial purpose Exchange Company may immediately cancel any

current reservation(s) made by such Member and may impose such additional penalties or restrictions as

determined by Exchange Company, in its sole and absolute discretion, from time to time. The restrictions

of this paragraph do not apply to Exchange Company or its affiliates or designees.

 

[Hindsite]

Looks like they are going after those operating at scale electing club points, which is quite possible for GR owners, and could be a similar issue to the issues that led to the limit on transferring in of Club points to 20k per year. GR owners, and their brokers, may have switched to renting out Abound reservations rather than points in response to the transfer in limits.

 

[WBP]

What a contrast, that Disney Vacation Club, SUPERIOR in many ways to Marriott Vacation Club, has a vibrant, non-DVC condoned, market for DVC points rentals.

I believe that MVC has crossed the line.

If I did not know better, I’d speculate that one action after another, by MVC, has roots in redirecting guests to purchase MVC points, which corroborates my claims that MVC is a timeshare SALES ORGANIZATION that just so happens to be, and pretends to be an ill-suited hospitality organization.

I do not believe that MVC is serving its owners, as a responsible fiduciary, in its capacity as “Operator (and management company)” of Marriott Vacation Club resorts. It appears to me that MVC is after one thing, selling points, and, perhaps, against their will, is creating a positive, on-site, guest experience, for only one reason, to sell existing MVC owners more points, and to garner Owner Referrals from them. The cycle, in my opinion, is a vicious cycle, carefully orchestrated and engineered by MVC.

 

[Dean]

Looks like they are going after those operating at scale electing club points, which is quite possible for GR owners, and could be a similar issue to the issues that led to the limit on transferring in of Club points to 20k per year. GR owners, and their brokers, may have switched to renting out Abound reservations rather than points in response to the transfer in limits.

I doubt the trust vs elected makes much difference big picture. I wonder if they sent this out to GR owners proactively simply because of the large volume of points involved.

 

[BrownThunder]

I'm surprised so many people here were told that they could freely rent their reservations and make money that way. We were specifically told (and had to sign a specific document) to not turn this into an investment venture, otherwise we risked getting our membership revoked.

Granted, this was when we signed up last June so maybe this change in ideology is fairly new.

 

[dioxide45]

Looks like they are going after those operating at scale electing club points, which is quite possible for GR owners, and could be a similar issue to the issues that led to the limit on transferring in of Club points to 20k per year. GR owners, and their brokers, may have switched to renting out Abound reservations rather than points in response to the transfer in limits.

THe 20K limit is only on inbound transfers. I don't think there are a lot of people renting or ever were transferring in such a large number of points. At least not in a single transaction. It takes a special kind of person to want or need to rent 20K points in a single transition.

I understand the 20K limit was put in place to stop a specific points broker from consolidating points within a single account for easier point management. That broker just changed strategy and instead just obtains the login credentials of all the owners they work with to go into their accounts and make reservations.

 

[igopogo]

THe 20K limit is only on inbound transfers. I don't think there are a lot of people renting or ever were transferring in such a large number of points. At least not in a single transaction. It takes a special kind of person to want or need to rent 20K points in a single transition.

I understand the 20K limit was put in place to stop a specific points broker from consolidating points within a single account for easier point management. That broker just changed strategy and instead just obtains the login credentials of all the owners they work with to go into their accounts and make reservations.

The email I received was the same one that you posted.

The funny thing about the one broker you mention is that he is well known to the Las Vegas folks. I attended the Hello Hotels update in LV and the salesperson offered to set me up with him if I bought some points. The salesperson said they do it all the time as a service to their clients and made it sound like it was part of an official program. Of course that was mostly a lie but I did rent points to that broker before the 20k limit and I totally believe that the salesperson would make good on connecting me with him. This of course would involve giving him access to my account and thus renting out reservations from my account. So shrug.

For the record I ended that relationship when he asked for access to my account…there’s a line I will not cross.

 

[jellen613]

I'm surprised so many people here were told that they could freely rent their reservations and make money that way. We were specifically told (and had to sign a specific document) to not turn this into an investment venture, otherwise we risked getting our membership revoked.

Granted, this was when we signed up last June so maybe this change in ideology is fairly new.

In an attempt to sell us more points, the salesman in DC (fall 2024) told us that he would rent our points for us to help us make money and cover our maintenance fees. He stated he kept in touch with all of his owners and offered this service (with a fee to Marriott of course). He was surprised that my original Abound points salesman did not keep in touch with me or provide this service. I have met with my salesman in HHI at least once since I bought points in 2012 (last meeting in 2023), and he did not mention rental of my points or keeping in touch with me.

Also, we have been hearing about renting our points to cover our MFs at every presentation since at least 2019. We typically do one presentation a year either at an encore stay or another trip. We have no problem listening to the spiel for visa cards or Bonvoy points.

My original purchase was a deeded week resale through Marriott in 2008. My salesman then did say he was available as a resource after the sale. I maybe communicated with him once after the sale. Marriott was a lot less pushy about sales then, and typically only scheduled sales presentations while we were on vacation if we initiated contact.

 

[Dean]

In an attempt to sell us more points, the salesman in DC (fall 2024) told us that he would rent our points for us to help us make money and cover our maintenance fees. He stated he kept in touch with all of his owners and offered this service (with a fee to Marriott of course). He was surprised that my original Abound points salesman did not keep in touch with me or provide this service. I have met with my salesman in HHI at least once since I bought points in 2012 (last meeting in 2023), and he did not mention rental of my points or keeping in touch with me.

Also, we have been hearing about renting our points to cover our MFs at every presentation since at least 2019. We typically do one presentation a year either at an encore stay or another trip. We have no problem listening to the spiel for visa cards or Bonvoy points.

My original purchase was a deeded week resale through Marriott in 2008. My salesman then did say he was available as a resource after the sale. I maybe communicated with him once after the sale. Marriott was a lot less pushy about sales then, and typically only scheduled sales presentations while we were on vacation if we initiated contact.

I've seen lots of salespeople claim (and many more posts to that effect) they offer additional services including reserving event weeks and renting them out. I've never seen evidence this is actually being done by such salespeople. We've seen lots of claims and quite a number of posts from those who were told that but were either ghosted or the salesperson was no longer with the company. IMO, at best it's smoke and mirrors to convince people to buy thinking they're getting something they really are not, at worst an insider could potentially have a way to reserve before any of us would and thus steal such reservations. In reality they really couldn't make a bunch of high end reservations for such even weeks without having insider access early because by the time they got one or 2 done, the rest would potentially be gone. It could be a valuable service for someone who wasn't proactive but for most of us here it would not be helpful and might be harmful. Plus I suspect MVC wouldn't tolerate such actions and would put a stop to it or fire them in many of these situations.

 

[Hindsite]

THe 20K limit is only on inbound transfers.

Correct, that is what I wrote.

 

[BrownThunder]

In an attempt to sell us more points, the salesman in DC (fall 2024) told us that he would rent our points for us to help us make money and cover our maintenance fees. He stated he kept in touch with all of his owners and offered this service (with a fee to Marriott of course). He was surprised that my original Abound points salesman did not keep in touch with me or provide this service. I have met with my salesman in HHI at least once since I bought points in 2012 (last meeting in 2023), and he did not mention rental of my points or keeping in touch with me.

Also, we have been hearing about renting our points to cover our MFs at every presentation since at least 2019. We typically do one presentation a year either at an encore stay or another trip. We have no problem listening to the spiel for visa cards or Bonvoy points.

My original purchase was a deeded week resale through Marriott in 2008. My salesman then did say he was available as a resource after the sale. I maybe communicated with him once after the sale. Marriott was a lot less pushy about sales then, and typically only scheduled sales presentations while we were on vacation if we initiated contact.

Wow! That's so different than what we were exposed to. Not only did the sales guy communicate to us that buying the membership with the purpose of turning it into a investment venture was strictly prohibited, they even brought in a lawyer with a specific piece of paper at the end and he reiterated the exact same thing as well.

We actually liked it because it showed Marriott wanted to take care of their owners first and foremost.

 

[Dean]

Wow! That's so different than what we were exposed to. Not only did the sales guy communicate to us that buying the membership with the purpose of turning it into a investment venture was strictly prohibited, they even brought in a lawyer with a specific piece of paper at the end and he reiterated the exact same thing as well.

We actually liked it because it showed Marriott wanted to take care of their owners first and foremost.

While it likely should be the standard it seems your experience was definitely the exception.

 

[jeffox]

Wow! That's so different than what we were exposed to. Not only did the sales guy communicate to us that buying the membership with the purpose of turning it into a investment venture was strictly prohibited, they even brought in a lawyer with a specific piece of paper at the end and he reiterated the exact same thing as well.

We actually liked it because it showed Marriott wanted to take care of their owners first and foremost.

Are you a current owner? It seems to be a tactic to get current owners to buy more, even if they have more then they can use already.