Email from MVC about use of club points

[VacationForever]

A TUGger sent me a PM a few years ago and got account locked by MVC because the person was renting out ski weeks, where a deeded week was appended with a few days using club points. This person was doing commercial renting, i.e. renting out many weeks. I might have even received the actual email content.

 

[BrownThunder]

Are you a current owner? It seems to be a tactic to get current owners to buy more, even if they have more then they can use already.

Yes, we're current owners. Just bought last June. However, we haven't gone to any sales presentations or tried to buy more points, so maybe that's why I haven't seen that.

 

[DanCali]

What a contrast, that Disney Vacation Club, SUPERIOR in many ways to Marriott Vacation Club, has a vibrant, non-DVC condoned, market for DVC points rentals.

I agree DVC is superior in many ways....

However, DVC is now doing a lot of the things that Marriott has been doing. They're just a few years behind...

First they started restricting resorts so that the resale product is almost useless (Riviera, Disneyland Hotel, Cabins at FW) - similar to how when you sell an enrolled week in MVC (or a Westin/Sheraton "voluntary" resort eligible for Staroptions) it's not very useful for internal trading to the new owner. DVC started this around 2020 while Marriott has been at it for at least a decade longer, and Vistana for even longer than that.

Now they are also scaring ordinary owners who rent once in a while with the vague "commercial clause"

See this recent thread:

Wanted to share my not great experience with MS regarding renting points | Disney Vacation Club Member Services

I listed a confirmed reservation with https://dvcrequest.com/ that... Join the Disney Vacation Club Member Services discussion on DISboards.

www.disboards.com

And a much longer thread on the topic here:

Commerical Use Policy Update - New Thread! | DVC Mousecellaneous

UPDATE - July 28th - Most recent info I have gotten... Join the DVC Mousecellaneous discussion on DISboards.

www.disboards.com

 

[iftravel]

I agree DVC is superior in many ways....

However, DVC is now doing a lot of the things that Marriott has been doing. They're just a few years behind...

First they started restricting resorts so that the resale product is almost useless (Riviera, Disneyland Hotel, Cabins at FW) - similar to how when you sell an enrolled week in MVC (or a Westin/Sheraton "voluntary" resort eligible for Staroptions) it's not very useful for internal trading to the new owner. DVC started this around 2020 while Marriott has been at it for at least a decade longer, and Vistana for even longer than that.

Now they are also scaring ordinary owners who rent once in a while with the vague "commercial clause"

See this recent thread:

Wanted to share my not great experience with MS regarding renting points | Disney Vacation Club Member Services

I listed a confirmed reservation with https://dvcrequest.com/ that... Join the Disney Vacation Club Member Services discussion on DISboards.

www.disboards.com

And a much longer thread on the topic here:

Commerical Use Policy Update - New Thread! | DVC Mousecellaneous

UPDATE - July 28th - Most recent info I have gotten... Join the DVC Mousecellaneous discussion on DISboards.

www.disboards.com

I wonder if anyone negotiated to buy some direct points to “retro” their resales successfully - DVC is behind MVC in that practice too.

 

[DanCali]

I wonder if anyone negotiated to buy some direct points to “retro” their resales successfully - DVC is behind MVC in that practice too.

I keep thinking DVC will also have to inevitably go that route, but it may be a while since all the restricted resorts are still in active sales. As you get more sellers, if resales of newer resorts like Riviera drop below $80/pt (currently at ~$100) while older resorts like Bay Lake are in the $120s and Poly and VGF in the $150s, I think sales of restricted resorts may need an extra incentive beyond an upfront discount. Perhaps why they recently pulled the trigger on the first Riviera ROFR.

They do have a very strong brand, so they may avoid "retros" for a while - they get people to attend a presentation by offering a water bottle or bag that probably costs them $5-$10; MVC often has to pay the equivalent of $30x-$50x that amount to talk to prospects.

 

[frank808]

I doubt the trust vs elected makes much difference big picture. I wonder if they sent this out to GR owners proactively simply because of the large volume of points involved.

I did not receive an email yesterday or today. Maybe ill get letter later.

Sent from my SM-S928U using Tapatalk

 

[goodbadugly]

It seems like they're continuing to walk the gray line they've established. "...commercial purpose...a pattern of rental activity". So occasional rental is probably fine, but if they see that you're regularly renting out Abound reservations they can call that "a pattern" or "commercial" and take action. So this doesn't seem like a change in policy to me. But I'll bet that property has a lot of rental activity and they are probably trying to put the fear of God into the most egregious renters.

The irony is a large number of MVC sales personnel spend good number of their working hours managing their MVC weeks!

 

[Cyberc]

I agree DVC is superior in many ways....

However, DVC is now doing a lot of the things that Marriott has been doing. They're just a few years behind...

First they started restricting resorts so that the resale product is almost useless (Riviera, Disneyland Hotel, Cabins at FW) - similar to how when you sell an enrolled week in MVC (or a Westin/Sheraton "voluntary" resort eligible for Staroptions) it's not very useful for internal trading to the new owner. DVC started this around 2020 while Marriott has been at it for at least a decade longer, and Vistana for even longer than that.

Now they are also scaring ordinary owners who rent once in a while with the vague "commercial clause"

See this recent thread:

Wanted to share my not great experience with MS regarding renting points | Disney Vacation Club Member Services

I listed a confirmed reservation with https://dvcrequest.com/ that... Join the Disney Vacation Club Member Services discussion on DISboards.

www.disboards.com

And a much longer thread on the topic here:

Commerical Use Policy Update - New Thread! | DVC Mousecellaneous

UPDATE - July 28th - Most recent info I have gotten... Join the DVC Mousecellaneous discussion on DISboards.

www.disboards.com

Now I don’t know how Marriott have worded their documents but I know that DVC allows renting - just not commercial renting.

Currently the only DVC definition available is from 2011 and it says you need to have more than 20 reservations per 12 months, does not matter if you have your name on them or not. At least to me it’s unclear if this is per membership or combined memberships. But at least DVC haven’t enforced consistently for more than 14 years.

With the 2021 Florida statues 718.110(13) Stating that condominiums can’t restrict owners right to rent without a vote. Only the owners in favor of the vote will the restrictions apply to and to new owners after the fact - not to those who are not in favor of it.

My best bet is that DVC with the current Florida law can’t make much change to their commercial use policy.

I don’t know if Marriott is a condominium at all and I have no idea how long the restrictions which is mentioned here has been in place. But if they are a condominium then the same law applies. However if the current restrictions came into force prior to June 2021 then they apply too but then Marriott can’t restrict them any further as that we be considered a material change which requires a vote from the owners.

 

[ljmiii]

I don’t know if Marriott is a condominium at all and I have no idea how long the restrictions which is mentioned here has been in place. But if they are a condominium then the same law applies. However if the current restrictions came into force prior to June 2021 then they apply too but then Marriott can’t restrict them any further as that we be considered a material change which requires a vote from the owners.

For points reservations Marriott's restrictions are written into the Destination Points (now Abound) Trust documents and Exchange Documents which you sign when you either buy trust points or enroll your weeks. My memory is that the rules for both are subject to change at Marriott's sole discretion but I can't swear without looking that the restrictions were or were not one of the many places MVC put the "sole discretion" wording.

Renting out MVC weeks is a different story. My understanding is that the rules for renting out ownership reservations are covered by the resort's public offering docs filed in their respective states.

 

[Cyberc]

For points reservations Marriott's restrictions are written into the Destination Points (now Abound) Trust documents and Exchange Documents which you sign when you either buy trust points or enroll your weeks. My memory is that the rules for both are subject to change at Marriott's sole discretion but I can't swear without looking that the restrictions were or were not one of the many places MVC put the "sole discretion" wording.

Renting out MVC weeks is a different story. My understanding is that the rules for renting out ownership reservations are covered by the resort's public offering docs filed in their respective states.

While I don’t know how Marriott is structured are they a COA or HOA? Condominium or Homeowner association? Some associations call themselves a HOA even though they are a condominium.

The rules are different. DVC is a COA and while they can change the rules at their sole discretion they can’t make any material changes such as limiting owners rights to rent. That’s at least how some/many or few of us DVC owners believe the rules are interpreted. If DVC had sole discretion to change the rules to ie: any and all renting is verboten they surely would. But since they haven’t there must be a reason why?

The same could apply to Marriott if their restrictions weren’t in place before June 2021. Even if the restrictions were in place before then it still means Marriott can’t restrict them any further than they have.

This of course only applies if Marriott is a COA.

What is Marriott official policy on renting and how do they define commercial use?

 

[igopogo]

What is Marriott official policy on renting and how do they define commercial use?

That’s the $64k question.

 

[DRH90277]

Considering the fact that the vacation trust has a deficiency of good weeks, I suspect they would be careful not to aggrevate the loyal owners of both points and weeks. Marriott's old thing was "Imagine," well imagine the impact on the points program if owners diverted weeks to rental and away from depositing for points. The shortage of available good points reservations could only get worse than it is today. The idea of sell, sell, sell points without shoring up the potential for the reservations we want, would not be good for points sales.

As an owner with quite a few weeks which can be deposited for points up until October 31st, I think I'll hold back, see what happens, and look for clarity.

 

[Cyberc]

That’s the $64k question.

Aren’t the policy in some of the public documents or do you need to request it?

According to FL statutes 718.111 Marriott should provide any owner the requested documents within 10 days. If they don’t they owe damages of $50 per day exceeding the 10 days.

You need to request the documents in writing.

All of this of course requires that the Marriott properties are condominiums like DVC.

 

[igopogo]

Aren’t the policy in some of the public documents or do you need to request it?

According to FL statutes 718.111 Marriott should provide any owner the requested documents within 10 days. If they don’t they owe damages of $50 per day exceeding the 10 days.

You need to request the documents in writing.

All of this of course requires that the Marriott properties are condominiums like DVC.

I don’t think they define “commercial activity” anywhere. It’s been discussed in many threads. Intentionally vague, I think.

 

[Cyberc]

I don’t think they define “commercial activity” anywhere. It’s been discussed in many threads. Intentionally vague, I think.

It HAS to be defined.

Even with DVC, they define it as more than 20 reservations per 12 month. However that definition is not part of the public documents you need to request the “commercial use policy” in writing from DVC.

But still it only applies to condominiums. Do anyone know if Marriott properties are condominiums at all? If they aren’t it’s moot.

 

[dioxide45]

What is Marriott official policy on renting and how do they define commercial use?

I am not aware of any timeshare entity that has defined commercial use.

 

[Cyberc]

I am not aware of any timeshare entity that has defined commercial use.

DVC has their own definition.

IF commercial use is not allowed you as an owner are entitled to know what that definition is. How can you otherwise adhere to the rules?

Also if Marriott claim you are in breach of the commercial use policy you are entitled to know what exactly you did to breach the rules.

Furthermore if renting Marriott works the same as DVC, meaning you can rent privately then it’s impossible for Marriott to know if you collected any money.

The policy could be as simple as more than 10 reservations in the name of others per year.

For a condominium they need to have a policy that you at least can request.

Not having it, I would assume would equal fair game on renting and that seems not to be the case.

Since I’m not familiar with Marriott I read earlier in this thread mentioning of different types of points? Could it be that the difference also relates to how the properties are structured COA vs HOA vs something else?

 

[dioxide45]

DVC has their own definition.

IF commercial use is not allowed you as an owner are entitled to know what that definition is. How can you otherwise adhere to the rules?

Also if Marriott claim you are in breach of the commercial use policy you are entitled to know what exactly you did to breach the rules.

Furthermore if renting Marriott works the same as DVC, meaning you can rent privately then it’s impossible for Marriott to know if you collected any money.

The policy could be as simple as more than 10 reservations in the name of others per year.

For a condominium they need to have a policy that you at least can request.

Not having it, I would assume would equal fair game on renting and that seems not to be the case.

Since I’m not familiar with Marriott I read earlier in this thread mentioning of different types of points? Could it be that the difference also relates to how the properties are structured COA vs HOA vs something else?

Wyndham has never officially defined commercial use, yet they cracked down heavily on owners who were renting. I don't think DVC really has defined it, they just state a maximum of 20 reservations. That really isn't a definition of commercial renting. There are still lots of people doing commercial use renting with DVC that never hit 20 reservations.

The timeshare entities want to keep the definition vague so they can enforce it however they want. It would take legal action by an owner to really challenge it. Something most owners won't bother with.

 

[rickandcindy23]

Wyndham has never officially defined commercial use, yet they cracked down heavily on owners who were renting. Even in cases where someone had one or two rentals! I don't think DVC really has defined it, they just state a maximum of 20 reservations. That really isn't a definition of commercial renting. There are still lots of people doing commercial use renting with DVC that never hit 20 reservations.

The timeshare entities want to keep the definition vague so they can enforce it however they want. It would take legal action by an owner to really challenge it. Something most owners won't bother with.

The lack of consistency and policy is the problem. Why can this person rent five units and another person rents two and gets a letter? What triggered one over the other?

 

[igopogo]

I don't think DVC really has defined it, they just state a maximum of 20 reservations.

Wow. We easily hit 20 reservations with our own use, going to Tahoe every weekend in the winter and several in the summer. Never mind friends and family, and trips to other resorts.

 

[Hindsite]

Also if Marriott claim you are in breach of the commercial use policy you are entitled to know what exactly you did to breach the rules.

MVC haven't claimed that the poster was in breach, they just sent out a vaguely worded reminder of what is in the procedures. For most recipients it will either be irrelevant or it may alter their approach, if they rent out. For the few that do rent out commercially, they are unlikely to be significantly deterred by the email and if MVC want, they can address them either by other means or directly if the underlying problem persists.

The change they made to the inbound transfer of club points wasn't done based on the commercial rental clauses either, it was another vague worded statement about fairness in reservations. As dioxide said, the alternative for those who wanted to continue was to provide 3rd party access to their accounts. As we don't know what the underlying issue they were trying to solve, we also don't know if that was at all addressed by the action taken. It may be that reducing the volume of ad-hoc rentals across the user base of hundreds of thousands, was sufficient to ease the issue without needing to specifically curtail the actions of a relatively few commercial renters.

 

[dougp26364]

I’m guessing renting to individual that you do not know, a week that you do not own, for anything above your own cost could be a reasonable definition as renting for commercial use.

Now if we were talking about fixed week/fixed unit there might be a viable argument as to managements ability to limit renting opportunities.

 

[Cyberc]

I’m guessing renting to individual that you do not know, a week that you do not own, for anything above your own cost could be a reasonable definition as renting for commercial use.

Now if we were talking about fixed week/fixed unit there might be a viable argument as to managements ability to limit renting opportunities.

It’s not that I disagree with you but to enforce something like that Marriott would need to know if you actually knew the person on the reservation same goes if money exchanged hands or not.

That’s why Marriott needs to have a policy, which owners can request and adhere to and Marriott can enforce it.

For condominiums in FL the policy can’t be anything Marriott decides it to be.

 

[Cyberc]

The lack of consistency and policy is the problem. Why can this person rent five units and another person rents two and gets a letter? What triggered one over the other?

At least for FL enforcement has to be consistent and can’t be selective. Selective enforcement opens up the COA or HOA for that matter for a lawsuit.
As an example an owner had a dog in his condo even though he knew it was against the rules. When the COA found out they send him a notice that it was against policy. The owner refused to comply and in court his defense was that other owners had cats which the COA did nothing about. The owner ultimately won over the COA because selective enforcement is illegal.

What does that mean here? It means at least in FL the enforcement should happen equally to any and all owners. Also mean that the example you gave could be that the one owner was in a different state with other statutes and the other owner was in FL.

 

[Dean]

DVC has their own definition.

IF commercial use is not allowed you as an owner are entitled to know what that definition is. How can you otherwise adhere to the rules?

Also if Marriott claim you are in breach of the commercial use policy you are entitled to know what exactly you did to breach the rules.

Furthermore if renting Marriott works the same as DVC, meaning you can rent privately then it’s impossible for Marriott to know if you collected any money.

The policy could be as simple as more than 10 reservations in the name of others per year.

For a condominium they need to have a policy that you at least can request.

Not having it, I would assume would equal fair game on renting and that seems not to be the case.

Since I’m not familiar with Marriott I read earlier in this thread mentioning of different types of points? Could it be that the difference also relates to how the properties are structured COA vs HOA vs something else?

DVC has a loose definition that says that at 20 reservations they look at it closely. They have not said that one is limited to 20 reservations or that one can rent 20 reservations.