New poll: 65% of Americans unlikely to buy EV's; 29% likely

[Ken555]

A friend of mine has a Tesla 3 and had to leave it with Tesla for a few days to fix the drivers seat. Apparently it wouldn’t adjust and even after he reset it according to directions, which took time, it still didn’t work. Tesla provided a loaner while it was in the shop.

It’s a new age when you have to take your car to the mechanic for days because the seat is at the wrong angle.


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[HitchHiker71]

Close to 60% of Americans pay income tax. About 20% of these taxpayers earn too much to receive the tax credit. About 60% of these taxpayers are recieving other deductions and credits that reduce their income to where another tax credit wouldn't matter. Maybe 20% of taxpayers are in the tax credit zone.

What I'm saying is most people do not benefit from a tax credit.

Bill

With the new rules for the point of sale credit that went into effect on 1/1/2024 - everyone qualifies for the full vehicle credit regardless of their tax liability now. The only exception is for those who exceed the income limits - the IRS will claw back the point of sale credit when you file taxes. Yes, this means if you have only $1000 of tax liability and claim the full $7500 point of sale credit - the IRS will not do anything about it. This information is listed right on the IRS website in the FAQ section for this topic.

Topic H — Frequently asked questions about transfer of New Clean Vehicle Credit and Previously Owned Clean Vehicles Credit | Internal Revenue Service

Topic H — Frequently asked questions about transfer of New Clean Vehicle Credit and Previously Owned Clean Vehicles Credit

www.irs.gov

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[DrQ]

You can stop trying to "educate" me on how ICE (or EV) vehicles work. I know when and how they're most efficient, and I've done far more auto mechanics than the average Joe. I have an engineering degree and 35 years in high tech...

The percentage of folks calling on multiple customers a day is non-zero, but not a significant portion of all miles driven or even commuter miles driven. For those folks, a long range BEV might make more sense. I'm fine with that.

Nothing you've cited has negated any of my points as they pertain to the typical American driver.

BS Aeronautical Engineering Purdue University with a CISSP if you want to get into a pi$$ing contest

 

[easyrider]

With the new rules for the point of sale credit that went into effect on 1/1/2024 - everyone qualifies for the full vehicle credit regardless of their tax liability now. The only exception is for those who exceed the income limits - the IRS will claw back the point of sale credit when you file taxes. Yes, this means if you have only $1000 of tax liability and claim the full $7500 point of sale credit - the IRS will not do anything about it. This information is listed right on the IRS website in the FAQ section for this topic.


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Most Americans would not benefit from a tax credit was my point. It might be useful in a year a person has gains to offset but for most Americans, the ev incentives are smoke and mirrors, imo. Most would get very little to nothing regarding a tax credit.

Bill

 

[HitchHiker71]

Most Americans would not benefit from a tax credit was my point. It might be useful in a year a person has gains to offset but for most Americans, the ev incentives are smoke and mirrors, imo. Most would get very little to nothing regarding a tax credit.

Bill

Go back and read what I posted. You’re assuming the taxpayer only gets the credit if they have enough tax liability to qualify - the rule change for 2024 converted over to a point of sale $7500 credit which comes right off the price of the vehicle when you actually purchase it now - basically means it’s now a tax rebate - and the government will only claw it back if the taxpayer exceeds the income limits - and that will only actually occur when you file for that tax year. It’s no longer a federal tax credit - it’s become a federal tax rebate.


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[easyrider]

Go back and read what I posted. You’re assuming the taxpayer only gets the credit if they have enough tax liability to qualify - the rule change for 2024 converted over to a point of sale $7500 credit which comes right off the price of the vehicle when you actually purchase it now - basically means it’s now a tax rebate - and the government will only claw it back if the taxpayer exceeds the income limits - and that will only actually occur when you file for that tax year. It’s no longer a federal tax credit - it’s become a federal tax rebate.


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Wow. So the dealer can take the $7500 tax credit off the purchase price is what you are saying. That's good for most buyers wanting an ev, imo.

Bill

 

[DrQ]

GM is currently planning to update the Bolt EV/EUV with the newer Ultium battery packs and then bring it back to market once that refresh is complete. If they keep the price point anywhere close to what it currently is - that's a really good deal IMHO. The current Bolt packs have had a LOT of reliability/fire type problems for various reasons (a big chunk of Bolts were recalled at some point for pack replacements IIRC). They also were slow to charge. If they switch over to the newer Ultium packs - the charging will be much quicker, and the reliability issues should be resolved as well.

The update would be a great refresh on this vehicle. When the Bolt EV was designed, fast charging DC was just getting started, so the "fast" charging options for the Bolt are limited.

Bolt EV refresh wish-list:

• Upgrade battery pack to new Ultium units
• Upgrade DC fast charging to current state of the art
• Update climate control to heat pump to eliminate resistive heating for cabin heater

The Bolt EV is a nice, no-frills EV. It would be nice to keep it that way. 200 HP for that size car is enough to make it fun without getting cave-man macho. I have had great fun driving it around town.

 

[CalGalTraveler]

I will have to check out the Bolt EV. It is a cute car and the price is $25k - $36k with 250 range.

The Blazer and Equinox have over 300 miles in range but the $50k+ price points take me to considering a Volvo or Audi EV or Hybrid instead

 

[CericRushmore]

I will have to check out the Bolt EV. It is a cute car and the price is $25k - $36k with 250 range.

My understanding is that the old Bolt was just discontinued, but I'm sure there is still lots of inventory out there. Apparently, GM is going to build a new Bolt - no ETA date on that one though. https://www.cnbc.com/2023/10/24/general-motors-chevrolet-bolt-ev-ultium.html

 

[HitchHiker71]

Wow. So the dealer can take the $7500 tax credit off the purchase price is what you are saying. That's good for most buyers wanting an ev, imo.

Bill

Yes. Honestly I kinda disagree with this latest change - as we're basically now giving away from tax dollars via a "rebate" instead of an actual credit and the IRS is currently saying that they will only attempt to claw back the PoS credit if you actually exceed the established income limits - otherwise you get to keep the entirety of the $7500 even if you had zero tax liability. That's a sweet deal for those who fall into this bucket - but for the 60% of us who actually pay federal taxes - we are now directly subsidizing EV purchases even for those folks who don't have up to $7500 of tax liability. Not sure how I feel about that really.

 

[HitchHiker71]

My understanding is that the old Bolt was just discontinued, but I'm sure there is still lots of inventory out there. Apparently, GM is going to build a new Bolt - no ETA date on that one though. https://www.cnbc.com/2023/10/24/general-motors-chevrolet-bolt-ev-ultium.html

Not so much discontinued as refreshed with better tech:

That second bullet point is actually really nice to see. It'll mean less range since the new packs will be using LFP batteries - but you can also charge to 100% constantly - as LFP packs actually work best when charged up to 100% on a regular basis (at least once a week minimum to keep the BMS working as designed). They also last a LOT longer than NMC/NCA higher density packs in comparison - the cycle rates boost up from around 1000-1500 cycles for NMC/NCA packs to 3000-4000 cycles. LFP packs can easily last hundreds of thousands of miles longer than NMC/NCA packs in other words - and while they do experience some range degradation over time - it's generally about 10% overall and then stops and stays there for the remainder of the pack's service life. The only other detractor for LFP packs is that they don't do as well in colder weather when compared to NMC/NCA packs - i.e. they experience more range loss in colder temps. Still - if GM actually releases this upgraded Bolt - we may seriously consider grabbing one up as a commuter car that we'd plan to keep for the long term. Given they're also planning to release it with a NACS port right out of the gate - that means it'll be Tesla SC network enabled right from the start - and this addresses my other big concern - access to the best charging network by far here in the states - another big win for the Bolt. These two additions address two of my chief concerns - longevity (LFP pack) and access to reliable public DC chargers (Tesla SC network).

 

[easyrider]

Yes. Honestly I kinda disagree with this latest change - as we're basically now giving away from tax dollars via a "rebate" instead of an actual credit and the IRS is currently saying that they will only attempt to claw back the PoS credit if you actually exceed the established income limits - otherwise you get to keep the entirety of the $7500 even if you had zero tax liability. That's a sweet deal for those who fall into this bucket - but for the 60% of us who actually pay federal taxes - we are now directly subsidizing EV purchases even for those folks who don't have up to $7500 of tax liability. Not sure how I feel about that really.

To me, it makes sense to do a rebate versus a tax credit. Especially with so many unsold ev's sitting around. The new ev inventory is huge because no one is buying them.

The rebate does help some people but the reality is that most Americans can't afford a new car or will not buy a new car, especially an ev, because of costs and depreciation. It looks like the few Chevy Bolts for sale near me ( 2023 model) cost about $32,000 so with the rebate and Washington sales tax exemption it's cost is about $24,500 for a sub-compact ev.

Bill

 

[CalGalTraveler]

To me, it makes sense to do a rebate versus a tax credit. Especially with so many unsold ev's sitting around. The new ev inventory is huge because no one is buying them.

The rebate does help some people but the reality is that most Americans can't afford a new car or will not buy a new car, especially an ev, because of costs and depreciation. It looks like the few Chevy Bolts for sale near me ( 2023 model) cost about $32,000 so with the rebate and Washington sales tax exemption it's cost is about $24,500 for a sub-compact ev.

Bill

Can you cite your source that no one is buying EVs and they are sitting around? GM post earlier stated that Bolts had a sales jump in 2023 and will continue to sell until their new version is available.

 

[HitchHiker71]

To me, it makes sense to do a rebate versus a tax credit. Especially with so many unsold ev's sitting around. The new ev inventory is huge because no one is buying them.

Tesla has not had any inventory issues - their inventory sits at 16 days - which is the exact same it's been for over a year. They've cut prices to boost demand without a doubt - but everyone is buying Tesla vehicles in higher volumes than at any time previously. The legacy manufacturers are struggling more in comparison - for reasons that we could debate here if desired - but suffice it to say Tesla is not experiencing this issue to date.

The rebate does help some people but the reality is that most Americans can't afford a new car or will not buy a new car, especially an ev, because of costs and depreciation. It looks like the few Chevy Bolts for sale near me ( 2023 model) cost about $32,000 so with the rebate and Washington sales tax exemption it's cost is about $24,500 for a sub-compact ev.

Bill

Does Washington offer any state rebates? Or are we talking D.C?

 

[easyrider]

Can you cite your source that no one is buying EVs and they are sitting around? GM post earlier stated that Bolts had a sales jump in 2023 and will continue to sell until their new version is available.

View attachment 88005

The inventory of most ev's waiting to be sold is at an all time high with most auto makers. You can google this yourself. I'm thinking they will need to drop the price and increase the incentives to get things going.

Bill

Bloomberg - Are you a robot?

EV Inventories Hit Record High in US as Cars Pile Up on Lots - TT

Electric vehicle inventories on U.S. dealer lots reached a new high in December, with a 114-day supply that was more than double what it was a year ago.

www.ttnews.com

 

[easyrider]

Tesla has not had any inventory issues - their inventory sits at 16 days - which is the exact same it's been for over a year. They've cut prices to boost demand without a doubt - but everyone is buying Tesla vehicles in higher volumes than at any time previously. The legacy manufacturers are struggling more in comparison - for reasons that we could debate here if desired - but suffice it to say Tesla is not experiencing this issue to date.

Does Washington offer any state rebates? Or are we talking D.C?

Washington State. Washington State has a high percentage of ev to ice and a sales tax incentive worth about 9% on top of the tax incentive rebate.

I'm not sure where the 16 day inventory comes into play but Tesla does have alot of unsold inventory. There are over 75,000 unsold Tesla models. Is 75,000 Tesla's a 16 day inventory ?

Bill

Can You Trust Tesla's Numbers When Inventory Looks So Suspicious?

In my discussion about Tesla profits, I mentioned the inventory figures, but they deserved an independent story asking just about them.

www.autoevolution.com

The total of unsold vehicles reaches 74,449, of which 12,208 are Model Ss or Model Xs (16.4%). A higher percentage of expensive cars, yet a lower share of finished goods inventory costs. It makes no sense. The Q2 2023 numbers made that even worse.

 

[HitchHiker71]

The inventory of most ev's waiting to be sold is at an all time high with most auto makers. You can google this yourself. I'm thinking they will need to drop the price and increase the incentives to get things going.

Bill

Bloomberg - Are you a robot?

EV Inventories Hit Record High in US as Cars Pile Up on Lots - TT

Electric vehicle inventories on U.S. dealer lots reached a new high in December, with a 114-day supply that was more than double what it was a year ago.

www.ttnews.com

FWIW - if you're in the market for a BEV and don't want to buy a new BEV and bear the brunt of depreciation - there are BEVs sitting on used lots as well - and oftentimes you can save tens of thousands when compared to a new BEV. Many of the BEVs that start at 80-90k+ new and are only 1-2 years old can be had for prices starting in the 60s for example. I'm currently watching prices on lightly used F150 Lightning Platinum pickups with the intent of picking one up when I find the right deal. Many of the F150Ls on my watchlist are listed in the mid-high 60s - and on the few I've actually done some negotiation on - I'm around 60-63k out the door prices. For a truck that sold for 95-110k off the lot new - that's a pretty good discount. Many of these EV pickups have less than 10k miles on them - basically new - with the remainder of the factory warranty and the 8yr/120k HV system warranty.

 

[HitchHiker71]

Washington State. Washington State has a high percentage of ev to ice and a sales tax incentive worth about 9% on top of the tax incentive rebate.

I'm not sure where the 16 day inventory comes into play but Tesla does have alot of unsold inventory. There are over 75,000 unsold Tesla models. Is 75,000 Tesla's a 16 day inventory ?

Bill

Can You Trust Tesla's Numbers When Inventory Looks So Suspicious?

In my discussion about Tesla profits, I mentioned the inventory figures, but they deserved an independent story asking just about them.

www.autoevolution.com

The total of unsold vehicles reaches 74,449, of which 12,208 are Model Ss or Model Xs (16.4%). A higher percentage of expensive cars, yet a lower share of finished goods inventory costs. It makes no sense. The Q2 2023 numbers made that even worse.

Strictly by the numbers against Tesla's annual vehicle production which is running about 1.9mm annual right now, two weeks of inventory would equate to 1.9mm/26=73,076 vehicles. So at any moment in time - Tesla has roughly that number of vehicles in transit from the factories to delivery centers. The vast majority of those vehicles have actually already been purchased - meaning a buyer ordered the vehicle in advance, put down a non-refundable deposit and is waiting on delivery. There's likely 20% of manufactured vehicles that end up in "inventory" that don't fall into this category that you can shop for online via Tesla's online inventory here:

https://www.tesla.com/new

I'd actually recommend buying from inventory as this is where Tesla applies discounts to move product. If you check your zip code - I bet you'll see that there's discounted inventory available to order, oftentimes 5-10% off the custom order MSRP price, plus any applicable federal and state tax credits.

 

[easyrider]

Strictly by the numbers against Tesla's annual vehicle production which is running about 1.9mm annual right now, two weeks of inventory would equate to 1.9mm/26=73,076 vehicles. So at any moment in time - Tesla has roughly that number of vehicles in transit from the factories to delivery centers. The vast majority of those vehicles have actually already been purchased - meaning a buyer ordered the vehicle in advance, put down a non-refundable deposit and is waiting on delivery. There's likely 20% of manufactured vehicles that end up in "inventory" that don't fall into this category that you can shop for online via Tesla's online inventory here:

https://www.tesla.com/new

I'd actually recommend buying from inventory as this is where Tesla applies discounts to move product. If you check your zip code - I bet you'll see that there's discounted inventory available to order, oftentimes 5-10% off the custom order MSRP price, plus any applicable federal and state tax credits.

Tesla has to lower it's price because some of their ev's no longer qualify for the tax incentive. The other problem might be all of the lease returns and used Tesla showing up in dealer inventory. The deprecation on ev's is insane. Ev's are probably the only vehicles, other than some over price luxury ice vehicles, that experience up to a 50% depreciation the first year. The are almost as bad as a timeshare, lol. Tesla does seem to hold value better than most. If we were going to get an ev it would be a long range Tesla. The only reason we would purchase a Tesla is if we live long enough to where there isn't an ice choice.

Bill

 

[CalGalTraveler]

Tesla has to lower it's price because some of their ev's no longer qualify for the tax incentive. The other problem might be all of the lease returns and used Tesla showing up in dealer inventory. The deprecation on ev's is insane. Ev's are probably the only vehicles, other than some over price luxury ice vehicles, that experience up to a 50% depreciation the first year. The are almost as bad as a timeshare, lol. Tesla does seem to hold value better than most. If we were going to get an ev it would be a long range Tesla. The only reason we would purchase a Tesla is if we live long enough to where there isn't an ice choice.

Bill

Not all EVs. I can sell my e-Golf at a profit. If I had paid MSRP it has depreciated in value similar to ICE.

 

[easyrider]

Not all EVs. I can sell my e-Golf at a profit. If I had paid MSRP it has depreciated in value similar to ICE.

I think you got the deal of the year !!! That's probably what it would take to get people to buy ev's.

Bill

 

[CalGalTraveler]

Finn, a German-founded startup selling EV subscription model as a try before you buy in WSJ today (Note: might be behind a paywall. Here is an excerpt)

Still not convinced to buy an electric-vehicle? How about a six-month rental to try one out?

German tech startup FINN is betting that it can get more people to go electric with its six- to 18-month subscription service, letting consumers try before making a permanent switch to electric. Founded in 2019, it has 25,000 subscribers, around 40% of whom opted for EVs. Most of those people are in Germany, but it also has about 2,000 subscribers in the U.S. East Coast and hopes to expand into California and Florida. Around 7.5% of FINN’s American customers have opted for an EV.

“What this does is allow you to kick the tires in your real life,” said Maximilian Wühr, CEO of FINN. Wühr said subscribers are often hesitant to commit to new technologies and that one of the most common concerns is range anxiety—the worry of being left stranded with a dead battery and without a charger. FINN’s subscriptions are shorter and more expensive than leasing, which are typically a three-year commitment and about 10% cheaper according to Wühr.


Governments are spending billions of dollars to encourage the shift to EVs, a central part of many of their decarbonization plans. Uptake is growing—in the U.S. and Canada, 1.7 million battery EVs and plug-in hybrids were sold last year, up from just over 1.1 million in 2022, according to Rho Motion, an electric mobility consulting firm.
...

https://www.wsj.com/articles/could-car-subscriptions-entice-mass-ev-adoption-ad993291?mod=Searchresults_pos1&page=1

We try out Finn German Car Subscription Service Now in the (Eastern) US.

We Try Out FINN, the German Car Subscription Service Now in the US

We sample FINN Car Subscription, the company that lets us drive a Cadillac XT6 for just $29 a day. Is it too good to be true?

www.autoguide.com

 

[Cornell]

Damn - Teslas don't come with a spare or a jack.

Our car had neither a jack nor a spare. We could have bought the car with a full-size replacement, but that would have left no room for luggage in the trunk.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-day-our-tesla-deflated-california-charging-station-ev-flat-tire-family-road-trip-9d8966b1?mod=opinion_lead_pos12

 

[vacationtime1]

Ready or not, here they come.

Opinion | China’s Electric Vehicles Are Going to Hit Detroit Like a Wrecking Ball (Published 2024)

Do we really want America to become a backwater of bloated, expensive, gas-guzzling cars?

www.nytimes.com

 

[Ken555]

Ready or not, here they come.

Opinion | China’s Electric Vehicles Are Going to Hit Detroit Like a Wrecking Ball (Published 2024)

Do we really want America to become a backwater of bloated, expensive, gas-guzzling cars?

www.nytimes.com

America lost the high ground in this challenge long ago, and it’s only going to get worse over time. How much will it cost us to pretend to stay in that race?


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