New poll: 65% of Americans unlikely to buy EV's; 29% likely

[Ken555]

Note this is obviously behind a paywall.


AMERICA IS MISSING OUT ON THE BEST ELECTRIC CARS

America Is Missing Out on the Best Electric Cars — The Atlantic

Whatever kind of EV you might want, chances are China has it.

apple.news

This company just completed 30 million battery swaps:

NIO completes 30 million global battery swaps, further proving the process's viability — Electrek

EV automaker NIO continues to be the only passenger vehicle manufacturer to demonstrate the true potential of battery swap stations. Earlier today, the company live streamed its 30 millionth battery swap, hitting a milestone for the nascent technology, but also providing further evidence of how...

apple.news

This illustrates that we are still in the early days of EV tech, as it’s advancing in different directions outside the US.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[PcflEZFlng]

You must have an amazingly reliable car. IMHO ... projecting that it will have the same level of reliability from 12 years to 22 feels too optimistic.

I owned a Honda Accord for over 20 years. Although it was known as a reliable auto, things started to break starting around year 14.

I'm right there on this. I have a 2007 Hyundai Sonata that I bought almost brand-new the same year. It was a great commuter car for many years, and now in retirement I just run it around town. It still runs fine at only 128K miles, and I'm reluctant to give it up. But things are definitely breaking down, and the AC stopped working a couple of years ago. That's a big one, with a lot of $$ to fix. The only $ I'm willing to spend on it now is just the minimum to keep it in safe operating condition. So I will be replacing it in the not-too-distant future. That plus the fact I live in SoCal and have rooftop solar makes me a great candidate for an EV.

 

[jp10558]

Baloney. Maybe it doesn't apply to your situation but that doesn't make anything outside your situation or social bubble extreme.

Savings would apply to anyone who has an 18 to 12 mpg automobile drives a lot, pays for gas. Are you saying no one in the USA owns a Sububan, SUV, BMW, or large sedan and those vehicles sip gas and dont require maintenance?

The issue I'm pointing out is you're comparing a large ICE vehicle to a small EV (That golf is not a Surburban equivalent).

The average age of a vehicle in the USA is 12 years. You make it sound like everyone should buy a new car every few years to avoid service costs. Have you factored in the additional purchase cost over your lifetime vs. repair after warranty?

My argument is compare like to like. If you're comparing a 12 year old ICE, you should compare an old EV (not sure if there's really many 12 year old ones out there) or compare a brand new ICE to a brand new EV, and late model to late model. I.e. saying a 2011 ICE has high repair costs vs a 2022 EV is the wrong comparison. Compare a 2022 EV to a 2022 ICE.

That additional purchase cost is not factored in to anyone's cost analysis of owning a newer car that I have seen here.

I'm not sure why this is what you're talking about here - I used to listen to Car Talk and way back in the 80s it was clear the cheapest way to own a car was to buy a 10 yr old "jalopey" and fix it as you go. I'm saying most of this discussion has been about buying a new EV, so it seems reasonable to compare to a new ICE.

Half of my family used to always buy 10-12 year old cars, a third would buy new but keep till dead, and I would buy new every 3ish years pre covid. I spent the most amount of money, but also had the most reliable vehicle, and the nicest to be in every day. Post COVID I am going with own till it dies, because I can now have my car in the shop for however long it needs cause I WFH now. However, when I needed to get to the office, I paid so I could be much more sure I'd get there every day. savings are real because we are not paying the man at the pump and garage anymore.

 

[Elan]

The best use case for a BEV is a daily commuter with stop/go driving where you can charge at home. This is the type of driving which tears up ICE vehicles.

Precisely. And for those types of trips, one doesn't need a BEV when a PHEV serves the same purpose. And, even if one wanted a "designated commuter" BEV, it certainly doesn't need to have 250+mi range and cost $50k+.

 

[jp10558]

Making the idea that having an electric car and charging it is somehow extreme. That's laughable considering that electric vehicles take care of the lion's share of most people's driving habits. And for what little they don't handle easily, there's rental cars, airplanes, and (hopefully someday) trains.

I'm not arguing that having an EV is extreme. I'm arguing that when I looked into it, the savings weren't as high as many touted (because the era of free charging to get you in and cheap electricity is over, and there's likely extra costs involved in installing charging for a lot of people, and many can't install charging at all due to renting etc) and the costs (up front purchase price), giving up functions for road trips, potentially towing - it's far less clear cut than you might think.

I just think downplaying something you have come to expect in a vehicle, just because people don't use it all the time, is a big mental hurdle. It's sort of like - most people only do laundry once a week, so instead of owning a washer/dryer you should just change to using a laundromat.

Maybe I just live in a crappy area, but renting cars is a PITA and often costs more than the timeshare I'm going to (when I get RCI Extra Vacations). Airplanes are worse in every way but time. (I.e. they cost more than a rental car for 3-5 people, they impose restrictions on how much you can bring limiting my photography gear, my clothes, my EDC stuff, my battery packs to run my CPAP in an emergency and they pretty much lock you into the trip schedule in any low priced tickets, my current road trip I found another available timeshare and just extended a week with a car). Trains are pretty much nonexistent anywhere I've gone in years in the US and Canada.

Yes, you CAN do changes to your lifestyle and home, and driveway or build a garage or move to get an EV, but I just don't believe the savings are actually there yet to make that worthwhile for many. Every "fix" for the EV problems start with hanging an extension cord out to wherever you park your car and escalate in price and hassle from there.

 

[ScoopKona]

The best use case for a BEV is a daily commuter with stop/go driving where you can charge at home. This is the type of driving which tears up ICE vehicles.

It's also the kind of driving most people do most. Commutes, running errands. Most people don't wake up every morning and drive 400 miles on empty roads.

Yes, you CAN do changes to your lifestyle and home, and driveway or build a garage or move to get an EV, but I just don't believe the savings are actually there yet to make that worthwhile for many. Every "fix" for the EV problems start with hanging an extension cord out to wherever you park your car and escalate in price and hassle from there.

In my case, the lifestyle change is worse with the ICE truck. If it were up to me, I would rarely leave my farm. I have a passable grocery store less than 1,000 feet from me (but because of the terrain, it's a four-mile drive from my garage to the parking lot). If it was possible to walk there, I would. Someday I'll have enough cleared so I can just walk to the store.

There are only two gas stations in my general area which make sense for fueling my gargantuan pick up. Both are 20 miles from my house. So every month or so, I wake up at dawn and drive to the gas station to load Moby Dick's 35-gallon tank. Any closer fuel is more than $2/gallon more. So that's at least $70 in savings per fill up. This would be utterly unnecessary with a plug-in EV.

I don't even want a plug-in EV. I want a hydrogen fuel cell vehicle because it makes even more financial sense than the plug-in EV -- no batteries, only a handful of moving parts, refueling takes five minutes, the only exhaust is pure water; and there's an energy lab making fuel using tidal and solar energy.

I'll still need an ICE truck for hauling farm equipment around. But in an ideal world, it never, ever leaves the farm -- except for oil changes.

Most people don't think about how chained they are to their ICE vehicle because it's the devil they know.

 

[DrQ]

Precisely. And for those types of trips, one doesn't need a BEV when a PHEV serves the same purpose. And, even if one wanted a "designated commuter" BEV, it certainly doesn't need to have 250+mi range and cost $50k+.

The max EV mode of PHEVs is ~40 miles. My 250 mile range gives me access to the entire DFW metroplex for an entire day of driving.

A PHEV still has a transmission and all the other components of an ICE which get shaken and baked even if they are not active. A BEV is really simple, a PHEV has all of the ICE components plus battery and motor.

It is uncertain, but Chevy has made noise of updating the Bolt EV with the current battery. It can be had for ~$26K.

 

[Elan]

The max EV mode of PHEVs is ~40 miles. My 250 mile range gives me access to the entire DFW metroplex for an entire day of driving.

It is uncertain, but Chevy has made noise of updating the Bolt EV with the current battery. It can be had for ~$26K.

And many, many folks commute less than 20mi from home. Furthermore, even if one runs out of battery, they've still derived the 40 miles of EV benefit.

I've never gotten in my car and driven a metropolitan area for 250 miles in a day. That's a short path to insanity.

 

[easyrider]

It is uncertain, but Chevy has made noise of updating the Bolt EV with the current battery. It can be had for ~$26K.

Doesn't $26k seem absurd ? You can buy a new Bolt for about the same cost as the battery.

Bill

 

[HitchHiker71]

Note this is obviously behind a paywall.


AMERICA IS MISSING OUT ON THE BEST ELECTRIC CARS

America Is Missing Out on the Best Electric Cars — The Atlantic

Whatever kind of EV you might want, chances are China has it.

apple.news

This company just completed 30 million battery swaps:

NIO completes 30 million global battery swaps, further proving the process's viability — Electrek

EV automaker NIO continues to be the only passenger vehicle manufacturer to demonstrate the true potential of battery swap stations. Earlier today, the company live streamed its 30 millionth battery swap, hitting a milestone for the nascent technology, but also providing further evidence of how...

apple.news

This illustrates that we are still in the early days of EV tech, as it’s advancing in different directions outside the US.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

It's an interesting option - however pack swaps are really more applicable to high mileage commercial applications vs consumer applications. That said Nio is continuing to develop this technology and it's certainly an interesting way to go and potentially something that could become a real option here in the US as the costs come down over time. Here's an in-depth analysis of the current consumer costs associated with renting vs owning the Nio battery packs for anyone interested - this is why this concept most likely won't catch up here in the US any time soon:

The clifs notes version is that unless you drive 50k miles per year or more, and don't keep the vehicle for six years, you're coming out way behind renting the packs vs owning the pack in the vehicle as the subscription costs for the pack rentals are much higher than simply owning the pack in the vehicle. FYI, for anyone interested in deep dives on battery pack tech, this guy that produced this video is one of the best analysts I've found on battery pack tech - I consume his content as part of my investment analysis due diligence for the BEV sector on a regular basis.

 

[DrQ]

I've never gotten in my car and driven a metropolitan area for 250 miles in a day. That's a short path to insanity.

Just because the range SAYS 250 miles doesn't mean you are DRIVING 250 miles. If I have to drive 70+ mph on expressways/toll roads to traverse a large metro area, I'm not going to get 250 miles of range. Add temperature effects and that further decreases range.

If I were at a job where I had to visit multiple customers during the day, you would want that 250 mile range even if you put on ~100 miles (safety factor).

When that ICE vehicle part of the PHEV starts up, you are getting only ~5-10 mpg until the engine fully warms up and that is when you get the most amount of wear.

Come live and work in DFW, Houston, Chicago, LA ... when you want to talk about driving in a metro area. You drive non-expressways to maximize EV performance when possible or sit in stop/go congestion during "rush" hour while the EV is just consuming enough power to keep the interior comfortable. It's not just the miles, it's how those miles are added.

 

[DrQ]

Doesn't $26k seem absurd ? You can buy a new Bolt for about the same cost as the battery.

Bill

That is the cost of the ENTIRE battery. The Prius ran into this issue and when its batteries started failing in the 1st gen, there were companies that could locate the faulty cell a fix the battery pack.

The battery is not a single unit. bad cells can be identified and individual cells can be replaced and the computer updated.

 

[jp10558]

I guess I look at things differently. Musk is somewhat of a loudmouth and sometimes says the wrong thing - but when I look at what he does - I find that he's doing more to advance humankind than just about anyone else on this earth. This week, Neuralink is implanting products into humans to help people that have lost the use of their limbs. Elon's companies are accelerating the world’s transition to sustainable energy to save earth with Tesla (self driving vehicles, megapacks, solar, etc.) while creating a humanoid robot (Optimus) that will essentially be able to do anything eventually, launching Starlinks every week to space orbit to connect the world to the best internet service on the planet while building out Starship to save humankind by making life multi-planetary, fighting traffic by digging Boring Tunnels underneath the ground, and building an “everything” X app that is fundamentally fighting for the freedom of speech while providing other value added services. Yet people seem to hate this guy?

It just sounds like you drank his Kool-Aid. Some of his companies - when he goes away and doesn't screw anything up, do some good things. His actions range from smoking pot on Joe Rogan to potentially saying things that are technically illegal, to being forced to buy Twitter because of the boasts he made and thought he could shirk. Honestly, I thought twitter was bad before, but X is actively a huge dis and misinformation source, promoted by Musk. Somehow he's made it worse than Twitter was at being anything other than a far right echo chamber of hate and lies. He decided for some reason to use Starlink to try and cut services to Ukraine early in the war.

Look, plenty of people ended up occasionally doing good things, though often by philantropwashing their reputation while being horrible people running companies doing horrible stuff.

I would like to know what any one of us did this past week that remotely compares to any of this? Granted he's not everyone's cup of tea - but looking at what his companies are doing for humankind, he gets my vote every day and twice on Sunday. Again, to each his own I always say, but this is my own perspective.

I'd like to think we haven't actively tried to spread hate across the globe, or get in trouble with the SEC or went on Joe Rogan.

And I'm not really that into purity capitalism, - if there's no reasonable alternative you do what you must because there's no "clean" company, but to me, close to everything is a better alternative than Tesla(because of Musk, and multiple internal design decisions). I actually kind of hate what Tesla has done (like what Apple did to OSs and computers) with pushing the "huge touchscreen mostly/only in the middle" vs physical buttons for most functions. To me this is a safety issue (the car touchscreens are as bad as playing with your phone while driving, but try and adjust the recirculate setting or such in many cars following Tesla's internal design language. I hate them promoting the "buy a software upgrade to get the features ALREADY IN YOUR CAR" business model. I hate the "promised tech" that is going to be a software update, or whatever that not only wasn't 6 months out, but 6 years later or more is literally not realistically on the horizon at ALL. Getting to stick it to Musk also is just an added bonus.

 

[HitchHiker71]

The max EV mode of PHEVs is ~40 miles. My 250 mile range gives me access to the entire DFW metroplex for an entire day of driving.

A PHEV still has a transmission and all the other components of an ICE which get shaken and baked even if they are not active. A BEV is really simple, a PHEV has all of the ICE components plus battery and motor.

It is uncertain, but Chevy has made noise of updating the Bolt EV with the current battery. It can be had for ~$26K.

PHEVs have the highest repair rates since they combine both ICE and BEV under the hood - it's the most complex powertrain of all three variants (ICE, BEV, HEV/PHEV). Highest fire rates by far as well. Not saying they aren't reliable - just saying the statistics clearly show this.

GM is currently planning to update the Bolt EV/EUV with the newer Ultium battery packs and then bring it back to market once that refresh is complete. If they keep the price point anywhere close to what it currently is - that's a really good deal IMHO. The current Bolt packs have had a LOT of reliability/fire type problems for various reasons (a big chunk of Bolts were recalled at some point for pack replacements IIRC). They also were slow to charge. If they switch over to the newer Ultium packs - the charging will be much quicker, and the reliability issues should be resolved as well.

 

[easyrider]

That is the cost of the ENTIRE battery. The Prius ran into this issue and when its batteries started failing in the 1st gen, there were companies that could locate the faulty cell a fix the battery pack.

The battery is not a single unit. bad cells can be identified and individual cells can be replaced and the computer updated.

The cost of the battery is about the same cost as a new Bolt. Why would anyone choose to just buy a new Bolt over a new battery ?

Bill

 

[HitchHiker71]

Doesn't $26k seem absurd ? You can buy a new Bolt for about the same cost as the battery.

Bill

They are updating the Bolt using Ultium - the price of the vehicle is supposed to remain at the same $26k - nothing to do with the battery pack itself.

 

[CalGalTraveler]

The issue I'm pointing out is you're comparing a large ICE vehicle to a small EV (That golf is not a Surburban equivalent).

My argument is compare like to like. If you're comparing a 12 year old ICE, you should compare an old EV (not sure if there's really many 12 year old ones out there) or compare a brand new ICE to a brand new EV, and late model to late model. I.e. saying a 2011 ICE has high repair costs vs a 2022 EV is the wrong comparison. Compare a 2022 EV to a 2022 ICE.

I'm not sure why this is what you're talking about here - I used to listen to Car Talk and way back in the 80s it was clear the cheapest way to own a car was to buy a 10 yr old "jalopey" and fix it as you go. I'm saying most of this discussion has been about buying a new EV, so it seems reasonable to compare to a new ICE.

Half of my family used to always buy 10-12 year old cars, a third would buy new but keep till dead, and I would buy new every 3ish years pre covid. I spent the most amount of money, but also had the most reliable vehicle, and the nicest to be in every day. Post COVID I am going with own till it dies, because I can now have my car in the shop for however long it needs cause I WFH now. However, when I needed to get to the office, I paid so I could be much more sure I'd get there every day. savings are real because we are not paying the man at the pump and garage anymore.

I compared in Post #175 to an ICE Golf. Still way ahead because I save $4600 a year in gas, maintenance, smog and road tolls.

New poll: 65% of Americans unlikely to buy EV's; 29% likely

EVs are not for everyone but don't fall into the fallacy it is extreme. The savings are real because we are not paying the man at the pump and garage anymore. This is the standard debate tactic for people with untenable positions -- making the reasonable option extreme. Take gay marriage. One...

tugbbs.com

BTW...My analysis with my existing cars is no different than @Ralph Sir Edward and others on this thread where they the cost of the current vehicles owned vs. the purchase of a new BEV vehicle. You don't seem to take issue with that? (It is called a "Do Nothing" option analysis.)

But let's take your apples to apples complaint. Unlike my current vehicles, the ICE Gulf doesn't just magically show up. I would have to go out and buy one. With rebates and VW incentives we saved $20,000+ on the e-Golf over the ICE.

$20,000 purchase discounts vs ICE Gulf + $45,000 ($4500/year x 10 years) = $65,000 savings over purchasing an ICE Gulf over 10 years. Even without the purchase incentives you can see how the cost of gas and maintenance are the lions share of cost differential. Moreover you are subject to gas price spikes as we saw in the last two years of inflation. With the Middle East tensions rising, it may spike again. While the sunshine solar source remains fixed price = free.

Therefore, if you are spending on a lower MPG automobile than an eGolf and your gas is $2000/year. That's $20,000 savings over 10 years plus maintenance differential if you are able to use rooftop solar or get free charging (like my DH does) as a benefit at work.

$21,000+ off MSRP - 2019 Volkswagen eGolf w/Driver's Assistance Package ( 125 mile EPA range) Final Price: $10,000-$13,500

If you bought the car, can you please click the " I bought this" button, and post which city and what price. Brand New EV car 2019 eGolf SE with Driver's assistance package. Dealership ...

slickdeals.net

 

[Elan]

Just because the range SAYS 250 miles doesn't mean you are DRIVING 250 miles. If I have to drive 70+ mph on expressways/toll roads to traverse a large metro area, I'm not going to get 250 miles of range. Add temperature effects and that further decreases range.

If I were at a job where I had to visit multiple customers during the day, you would want that 250 mile range even if you put on ~100 miles (safety factor).

When that ICE vehicle part of the PHEV starts up, you are getting only ~5-10 mpg until the engine fully warms up and that is when you get the most amount of wear.

Come live and work in DFW, Houston, Chicago, LA ... when you want to talk about driving in a metro area. You drive non-expressways to maximize EV performance when possible or sit in stop/go congestion during "rush" hour while the EV is just consuming enough power to keep the interior comfortable. It's not just the miles, it's how those miles are added.

You can stop trying to "educate" me on how ICE (or EV) vehicles work. I know when and how they're most efficient, and I've done far more auto mechanics than the average Joe. I have an engineering degree and 35 years in high tech...

The percentage of folks calling on multiple customers a day is non-zero, but not a significant portion of all miles driven or even commuter miles driven. For those folks, a long range BEV might make more sense. I'm fine with that.

Nothing you've cited has negated any of my points as they pertain to the typical American driver.

 

[HitchHiker71]

It just sounds like you drank his Kool-Aid. Some of his companies - when he goes away and doesn't screw anything up, do some good things. His actions range from smoking pot on Joe Rogan to potentially saying things that are technically illegal, to being forced to buy Twitter because of the boasts he made and thought he could shirk. Honestly, I thought twitter was bad before, but X is actively a huge dis and misinformation source, promoted by Musk. Somehow he's made it worse than Twitter was at being anything other than a far right echo chamber of hate and lies. He decided for some reason to use Starlink to try and cut services to Ukraine early in the war.

Look, plenty of people ended up occasionally doing good things, though often by philantropwashing their reputation while being horrible people running companies doing horrible stuff.

I'd like to think we haven't actively tried to spread hate across the globe, or get in trouble with the SEC or went on Joe Rogan.

And I'm not really that into purity capitalism, - if there's no reasonable alternative you do what you must because there's no "clean" company, but to me, close to everything is a better alternative than Tesla(because of Musk, and multiple internal design decisions). I actually kind of hate what Tesla has done (like what Apple did to OSs and computers) with pushing the "huge touchscreen mostly/only in the middle" vs physical buttons for most functions. To me this is a safety issue (the car touchscreens are as bad as playing with your phone while driving, but try and adjust the recirculate setting or such in many cars following Tesla's internal design language. I hate them promoting the "buy a software upgrade to get the features ALREADY IN YOUR CAR" business model. I hate the "promised tech" that is going to be a software update, or whatever that not only wasn't 6 months out, but 6 years later or more is literally not realistically on the horizon at ALL. Getting to stick it to Musk also is just an added bonus.

To each his own. We will have to agree to disagree and leave it at that. Feel free to PM me if you want to continue this conversation offline. Suffice it to say I see things very differently than you (and likely others) do, and for good reason.

I'm not saying Tesla is perfect, far from it, but I don't see any other companies here in the US having pushed these boundaries and created something out of nothing - as previously noted. Specific to the BEV mass marketing play, GM/Ford/Stellantis/VW/most others could have lead the way as far back as 15-20 years ago but they all simply chose to forgo innovation and essentially practice ignorance (incompetence?) overall. Now they are on their heels racing to become relevant in this emerging market and finding out its not nearly as easy as they have let on via their marketing efforts over the past two years (Toyota included). Constant delays are being announced every quarter. We shall see how this all unfolds between now and 2030. Will BEV adoption continue to accelerate or will we see a leveling off? Hard to say - I have my concerns and observations - some of which I've shared in this thread. If the Chinese BEV manufacturers are allowed to bring their products into the US - even with tariffs - I think it's very feasible that the legacy automotive manufacturers here will simply go bankrupt. Even Tesla will be challenged to remain relevant in comparison, but I think they'd survive at least. This entire market segment will likely look very different than it does today 10 years from now.

 

[Ralph Sir Edward]

I compared in Post #175 to an ICE Golf. Still way ahead because I save $4700 a year in gas, maintenance, smog and road tolls.

New poll: 65% of Americans unlikely to buy EV's; 29% likely

EVs are not for everyone but don't fall into the fallacy it is extreme. The savings are real because we are not paying the man at the pump and garage anymore. This is the standard debate tactic for people with untenable positions -- making the reasonable option extreme. Take gay marriage. One...

tugbbs.com

BTW...My analysis with my existing cars is no different than @Ralph Sir Edward and others on this thread where they the cost of the current vehicles owned vs. the purchase of a new BEV vehicle. You don't seem to take issue with that? (It is called a "Do Nothing" option analysis.)

But let's take your apples to apples complaint. Unlike my current vehicles, the ICE Gulf doesn't just magically show up. I would have to go out and buy one. With rebates and VW incentives we saved $20,000+ on the e-Golf over the ICE.

$20,000 purchase discounts vs ICE Gulf + $45,000 ($4500/year x 10 years) = $65,000 savings over purchasing an ICE Gulf over 10 years. Even without the purchase incentives you can see how the cost of gas and maintenance are the lions share of cost differential. Moreover you are subject to gas price spikes as we saw in the last two years of inflation. With the Middle East tensions rising, it may spike again. While the sunshine solar source remains fixed price = free.

$21,000+ off MSRP - 2019 Volkswagen eGolf w/Driver's Assistance Package ( 125 mile EPA range) Final Price: $10,000-$13,500

If you bought the car, can you please click the " I bought this" button, and post which city and what price. Brand New EV car 2019 eGolf SE with Driver's assistance package. Dealership ...

slickdeals.net

In California. Other places may have a much lower cost/benefit structure.

 

[jp10558]

But let's take your apples to apples complaint. Unlike my current vehicles, the ICE Gulf doesn't just magically show up. I would have to go out and buy one. With rebates and VW incentives we saved $20,000+ on the e-Golf over the ICE.

Yes, if you can get a EV priced way less than the ICE version, of course that makes sense. I just hadn't seen that commonly, though I wasn't scouring the internet for EV deals to be fair. My experience with EV pricing was limited to the Tesla Model 3 when it came out and was actually costing like $43,000 but may have had the $7,500 rebate, however for a small 4 door sedan, it should have cost about $22,000 when it came out if I got an ICE. My second example was the Subaru Soltera that was a Crosstrek equivelent, and the Crosstrek was $26,000 ICE and the Soltera was $51,000. I understand EV prices are dropping now, so I hope to see more competitive prices. Of course my entire point is you'll likely never make up a $20,000 deficit with EV, so of course if you can grab one new for $13,000 somehow, that will kill any ICE, but I'd argue that's one of those deals maybe 100 people get before it's gone. I can't walk up to the Subaru lot and get an EV for anywhere near what I can get any ICE any day of the week.

 

[HitchHiker71]

Yes, if you can get a EV priced way less than the ICE version, of course that makes sense. I just hadn't seen that commonly, though I wasn't scouring the internet for EV deals to be fair. My experience with EV pricing was limited to the Tesla Model 3 when it came out and was actually costing like $43,000 but may have had the $7,500 rebate, however for a small 4 door sedan, it should have cost about $22,000 when it came out if I got an ICE. My second example was the Subaru Soltera that was a Crosstrek equivelent, and the Crosstrek was $26,000 ICE and the Soltera was $51,000. I understand EV prices are dropping now, so I hope to see more competitive prices. Of course my entire point is you'll likely never make up a $20,000 deficit with EV, so of course if you can grab one new for $13,000 somehow, that will kill any ICE, but I'd argue that's one of those deals maybe 100 people get before it's gone. I can't walk up to the Subaru lot and get an EV for anywhere near what I can get any ICE any day of the week.

This is why Tesla (and others) are working so hard to bring price competitive BEVs to market. Tesla's "Model 2" or robotaxi vehicle due out in 2025/2026 timeframe is supposed to have a 25k price point. It'll be a smaller CUV from what I've been able to ascertain - but we don't know much about it at this point. GM is also releasing the Blazer EV and the new Equinox EV (starting at 30k price point), with many others racing to bring lower price point BEVs to market sooner rather than later. If they happen to qualify for the federal/state tax credits - that just drives the price down even further. In my home state of Delaware if I keep the price of the EV under $60k I get a $2500 rebate - which when combined with the $7500 federal IRA tax credit - is a significant discount. We saved $10k using the federal/state rebates when we purchased our 2023 MY LR last year - or about 17% of the vehicle purchase price. If you could do the same on a 30k CUV BEV - that's 33% of the purchase price in comparison - now we're talking!

 

[CalGalTraveler]

We were fortunate to find this deal. Who knew that I could find a car deal on Slickdeals? In addition to government incentives, VW had significant incentives stemming from a lawsuit that they were misrepresenting MPG (or something like that).

That sounds like a basic Crosstrek at $26k. When I priced out Subaru Outback with the options we wanted it was closer to $40k. The cargo space is too small in the Crosstrek IMO for my pets. I believe the Soltera is a higher end model similar to an Outback or Forrester isn't it? So not quite comparable to a Crosstrek.

Even if it is $10k more expensive to purchase, net of incentives and rebates, divide that by the gas and maintenance savings. For me at $4500/year if it cost $10k more I would breakeven in a little over 2 years. If the ICE vehicle has lower MPG it will mean higher savings and faster breakeven.

 

[sparty]

Will just jump in here. Love my Bolt - Our English Bulldog and I drove it from Portland Oregon to Chicago, stopping at many timeshares along the way. Never ran into any issues - made it to Midwest in 3 days. One time in Nebraska I did have to wait for a charger but that was the only time. Took the adventurous route across the continental divide in Colorado staying off of I-70 and I-80 - no issues. Also drove it all around British Columbia on another trip and stayed at WM Victoria - much appreciated having the EV since the Canadian BC gas prices are insane. I understand some of the angst folks have, my own family tells me about it, but for me it's great, wouldn't trade it for anything.

 

[easyrider]

This is why Tesla (and others) are working so hard to bring price competitive BEVs to market. Tesla's "Model 2" or robotaxi vehicle due out in 2025/2026 timeframe is supposed to have a 25k price point. It'll be a smaller CUV from what I've been able to ascertain - but we don't know much about it at this point. GM is also releasing the Blazer EV and the new Equinox EV (starting at 30k price point), with many others racing to bring lower price point BEVs to market sooner rather than later. If they happen to qualify for the federal/state tax credits - that just drives the price down even further. In my home state of Delaware if I keep the price of the EV under $60k I get a $2500 rebate - which when combined with the $7500 federal IRA tax credit - is a significant discount. We saved $10k using the federal/state rebates when we purchased our 2023 MY LR last year - or about 17% of the vehicle purchase price. If you could do the same on a 30k CUV BEV - that's 33% of the purchase price in comparison - now we're talking!

Close to 60% of Americans pay income tax. About 20% of these taxpayers earn too much to receive the tax credit. About 60% of these taxpayers are recieving other deductions and credits that reduce their income to where another tax credit wouldn't matter. Maybe 20% of taxpayers are in the tax credit zone.

What I'm saying is most people do not benefit from a tax credit.

Bill