What percent does the Trust own at each property?

[Fasttr]

The question of.... What percent does the Trust own at each property....comes up from time to time. As I was looking at the Trust budget for 2024, there is an Exhibit that may shed some light on that at many resorts. The Exhibit below shows Reserve funding estimates for Trust owned inventory at each non-FL resort which the Trust has interest in. It seems if we compare this number, for any resort, to the full Reserve funding amount of that same resort, we should have a decent approximation of what percent of that resort's inventory is owned by the Trust. I know there are factors that will not make it exact (e.g. reserves differing based on villa sizes, etc), but it seems as it should be close.

I do not have my 2024 MF invoice for MGO yet, but I took a look back at the trailing 2 years using this approach, and the percentages are as follows:
MGO 2022 Budget Data - Trust owned 16%
MGO 2023 Budget Data - Trust owned 19.2%

Its also worth noting, for the resorts who's State requires a certain Reserve Funding as shown below, it appears MOC is the only one with material reserve funding shortfalls as compared to the State requirements. Keep in mind, the shortfalls below are only the Trust portion of that shortfall. Also keep in mind, there are no FL resorts on the list. Its also odd that the HHI resorts don't show a State requirement, but we vote to waive fully funding each year. Hmmmm.

Another interesting tidbit from the 2024 Trust Budget, it was reported that the Trust inventory grew by 13.4% during 2023.

Figured I would pass along the data, so TUGgers can do a quick calc of their own resort as their 2024 MF budgets roll in.

 

[sponger76]

Another interesting tidbit from the 2024 Trust Budget, it was reported that the Trust inventory grew by 13.4% during 2023.

That is a LOT of growth in one year this far into the trust's existence. It would be interesting to see the breakdown of acquisition, i.e. how many via ROFR, how many via foreclosures, etc.

 

[dioxide45]

A data point to chew on because I thought a 20% increase in MGO holdings in the trust (from 16%-19.2%). According to what I found online with the Orange County Comptroller, there were 284 MGO weeks added to the trust. I am sure we can extrapolate from that what the trust holdings were prior to this addition, but I don't think it would come anywhere close to 16%? Is excluding the Florida resorts skewing the results as you should be dividing the amount for MGO by a much larger total?

The trust did get a bunch of inventory added to it with the Vistana weeks added to it. Also not sure if they added a pulse property in 2023 also.

 

[Fasttr]

Is excluding the Florida resorts skewing the results as you should be dividing the amount for MGO by a much larger total?

I don't think so, as I am only taking the amount from the Trust Exhibit for MGO's line (for the appropriate prior year), and dividing that by MGO's full reserve amount (for the same year). Seems as if each resort would stand on its own. Its possible, as we have discussed, that the Trust budget is a year skewed from the actual resort budgets for certain line items, so I may have to play with the numbers a bit to see if that makes more sense (e.g. 2023 Trust Budget Exhibit to 2022 MGO Reserves). It also states at the top of the Exhibit, these estimates of units to be held by the trust as of 9/7/23.

 

[dioxide45]

I am also not sure where they are getting the 13.4% increase in the size of the trust. I would have thought this would be based on the number of points in the trust. Looking again at Orange County records, there were 680,808,000 points as of the last conveyance in 2022. According to the last conveyance for 2023 (which was March 8th) there are now 721,376,000. That is an increase of 40,568,000 or 5.95%.

Perhaps they measure the size and increase of the trust based on some other metric than number of points.

 

[Fasttr]

I am also not sure where they are getting the 13.4% increase in the size of the trust. I would have thought this would be based on the number of points in the trust. Looking again at Orange County records, there were 680,808,000 points as of the last conveyance in 2022. According to the last conveyance for 2023 (which was March 8th) there are now 721,376,000. That is an increase of 40,568,000 or 5.95%.

Perhaps they measure the size and increase of the trust based on some other metric than number of points.

It claims its based on an increase in beneficial interests added to the Trust. Each BI=250 points.

Looking back, here are the historical claims.
In 2024 Budget (presumably for 2023 data) 13.4% increase
In 2023 Budget (presumably for 2022 data) 7% (which is much closer to your number)
In 2022 Budget (presumably for 2021 data) 4%

 

[Fasttr]

I don't think so, as I am only taking the amount from the Trust Exhibit for MGO's line (for the appropriate prior year), and dividing that by MGO's full reserve amount (for the same year). Seems as if each resort would stand on its own. Its possible, as we have discussed, that the Trust budget is a year skewed from the actual resort budgets for certain line items, so I may have to play with the numbers a bit to see if that makes more sense (e.g. 2023 Trust Budget Exhibit to 2022 MGO Reserves). It also states at the top of the Exhibit, these estimates of units to be held by the trust as of 9/7/23.

I found a potential flaw in my logic for MGO. I was taking the number from the Exhibit for MGO, and dividing by the Trust Reserve Addition from the MGO resort budget. Perhaps I need to use the Reserve balance as the denominator, not the reserve addition. Not sure I know the total Reserve balance amount. Need to find a balance sheet for MGO to give me that info. Not sure if I have access to that.

 

[Fasttr]

I found a potential flaw in my logic for MGO. I was taking the number from the Exhibit for MGO, and dividing by the Trust Reserve Addition from the MGO resort budget. Perhaps I need to use the Reserve balance as the denominator, not the reserve addition. Not sure I know the total Reserve balance amount. Need to find a balance sheet for MGO to give me that info. Not sure if I have access to that.

Alternate method attempt for MGO
Found ending reserve balance numbers by going to MVC account, under Account/Overview/View Owner Assoc Documents, found board minutes, which did not list a full balance sheet, but indicated ending Reserve amounts as follows:
End of 2022 $10,290,205
End of 2021 $6,142,393
End of 2020 $7,793,360

Recalcs as follows
2023 Trust Exhibit line for MGO, As of Sept 2022, $1,381,781 / $10,290,205 = 13.4%
2022 Trust Exhibit line for MGO, as of Sept 2021, $1,007,733 / $6,142,393 = 16.4%
2021 Trust Exhibit line for MGO, as of Sept 2020, $881,684 / $7,793,360 = 11.3%

The reduction from 2022 to 2023 makes no sense.....but a lot could have happened between Sept and year end of any given year. This method is suggesting that MGO Trust ownership is likely in the 11-13% range, perhaps.

 

[dioxide45]

It claims its based on an increase in beneficial interests added to the Trust. Each BI=250 points.

Looking back, here are the historical claims.
In 2024 Budget (presumably for 2023 data) 13.4% increase
In 2023 Budget (presumably for 2022 data) 7% (which is much closer to your number)
In 2022 Budget (presumably for 2021 data) 4%

The numbers still work out the same. Though it is possible they are not going by calendar year and perhaps there was a big addition (Pulse) added at the end of 2022.

 

[AlmostRetired]

MGO 2022 Budget Data - Trust owned 16%
MGO 2023 Budget Data - Trust owned 19.2%

At the last Monarch HOA meeting it was mentioned that 31% of the Monarch units are in the trust. After reading this , I posted on a MGO FB Group if anyone knew that information on the MGO. Someone was at a GM meeting and heard that the GO is 80% + owned by owners. Your 2023 number seems very accurate.

 

[mbstn6254]

The question of.... What percent does the Trust own at each property....comes up from time to time. As I was looking at the Trust budget for 2024, there is an Exhibit that may shed some light on that at many resorts. The Exhibit below shows Reserve funding estimates for Trust owned inventory at each non-FL resort which the Trust has interest in. It seems if we compare this number, for any resort, to the full Reserve amount of that same resort, we should have a decent approximation of what percent of that resort's inventory is owned by the Trust. I know there are factors that will not make it exact (e.g. reserves differing based on villa sizes, etc), but it seems as it should be close.

I do not have my 2024 MF invoice for MGO yet, but I took a look back at the trailing 2 years using this approach, and the percentages are as follows:
MGO 2022 Budget Data - Trust owned 16%
MGO 2023 Budget Data - Trust owned 19.2%
EDITED TO ADD: SEE FLAW IN MY CALC LOGIC FOR MGO EXPLAINED IN POST 7 BELOW, AND RECALC ATTEMPTED IN POST 8

Its also worth noting, for the resorts who's State requires a certain Reserve Funding as shown below, it appears MOC is the only one with material reserve funding shortfalls as compared to the State requirements. Keep in mind, the shortfalls below are only the Trust portion of that shortfall. Also keep in mind, there are no FL resorts on the list. Its also odd that the HHI resorts don't show a State requirement, but we vote to waive fully funding each year. Hmmmm.

Another interesting tidbit from the 2024 Trust Budget, it was reported that the Trust inventory grew by 13.4% during 2023.

Figured I would pass along the data, so TUGgers can do a quick calc of their own resort as their 2024 MF budgets roll in.

View attachment 82850

For the not so informed....what is MGO?

 

[dioxide45]

For the not so informed....what is MGO?

Marriott Grand Ocean.

 

[dioxide45]

Correction attempt for MGO
Found ending reserve balance numbers by going to MVC account, under Account/Overview/View Owner Assoc Documents, found board minutes, which did not list a full balance sheet, but indicated ending Reserve amounts as follows:
End of 2022 $10,290,205
End of 2021 $6,142,393
End of 2020 $7,793,360

Recalcs as follows
2023 Trust Exhibit line for MGO, As of Sept 2022, $1,381,781 / $10,290,205 = 13.4%
2022 Trust Exhibit line for MGO, as of Sept 2021, $1,007,733 / $6,142,393 = 16.4%
2021 Trust Exhibit line for MGO, as of Sept 2020, $881,684 / $7,793,360 = 11.3%

The reduction from 2022 to 2023 makes no sense.....but a lot could have happened between Sept and year end of any given year. These numbers are suggesting that MGO Trust ownership is likely in the 11-13% range, perhaps.

Is ending reserves the right number to use? Wouldn't you divide the trusts reserve funding to the total reserve funding for the resort. Meaning, you would need the budget breakdown for the resort to see how much they are putting in reserves in order to do the calculation?

 

[Fasttr]

Is ending reserves the right number to use? Wouldn't you divide the trusts reserve funding to the total reserve funding for the resort. Meaning, you would need the budget breakdown for the resort to see how much they are putting in reserves in order to do the calculation?

I'm not 100% sure. I used reserve funding for my MGO calcs initially in post 1. But the more I was looking at the Exhibit, it shows a State requirement for some of the resorts. Would the state require a certain annual funding amount, or is that perhaps a State required ending reserve number. That's what prompted me to calc it the other way in post 8.

Perhaps the State column is necessary reserve funding needed in that year to be fully funded, in which case, my calc for MGO in post 1 would be the correct method. Thoughts?

 

[SueDonJ]

Seriously, do you people think I don't see all this math?!

But I do wonder if there's a disclosure with every Trust Points direct sale similar to the one that was released at the DC outset, that told us how many points at each resort had seeded the Trust?

 

[dioxide45]

Seriously, do you people think I don't see all this math?!

But I do wonder if there's a disclosure with every Trust Points direct sale similar to the one that was released at the DC outset, that told us how many points at each resort had seeded the Trust?

There wasn't one concise document that told us how many points each resort had. That was something that I created and would have to continue to maintain through the hundreds of conveyances recorded in Orange County FL. Also, that only shows the number of points in the trust for each resort and thus the percentage that each resort made up in the trust. It still wouldn't tell us what percentage of a resort was in the trust.

 

[Fasttr]

Just got the 2024 Budget detail for MGO.... here is the current year calc for Grande Ocean

Trust weeks Reserve Fee line item for Grande Ocean from Exhibit in post 1: $2,054,837
Divided by: Full Resort Reserve Fee line item from 2024 Budget $8,113,202
Estimated % of weeks at Grade Ocean owned by the Trust 25.3%

Seems like an aggressive uptick, so take it for what it is (a rough estimate), but if nothing else, its another data point to consider.

Hoping others will post the calc for their resorts as MF Budget info rolls in.

 

[danill]

There wasn't one concise document that told us how many points each resort had. That was something that I created and would have to continue to maintain through the hundreds of conveyances recorded in Orange County FL. Also, that only shows the number of points in the trust for each resort and thus the percentage that each resort made up in the trust. It still wouldn't tell us what percentage of a resort was in the trust.

I came across a couple documents with useful information. The first is a HI disclosure dated 10/21/2022 that contains total units, as well as trust units for each NA property. The second document, a CA disclosure, is more recent, 3/21/2023, but only contains trust units. For MGO, the first doc says there are 290 total units, of which 53.9 are in the trust (18.6%). The later document says there are 58.83 units in the trust (20.3%).

 

[WahooWah]

The disclosure statement for the destination club points, which you have attached, has all of the information that the OP is looking for and it is updated periodically. I'm not quite sure how to continue to get the most recent version of this document other than from the USB thumb drive that they give out when you make a purchase.

 

[SueDonJ]

The disclosure statement for the destination club points, which you have attached, has all of the information that the OP is looking for and it is updated periodically. I'm not quite sure how to continue to get the most recent version of this document other than from the USB thumb drive that they give out when you make a purchase.

The docs shared by @dj_drf are what I was thinking of with my Post #15 above, something that shows current-as-of-certain-purchases Trust conveyances! Now the TUG math wizards need to compare the total number of units that exist at every resort with the number conveyed at each resort (the list begins on page 7 of the second attached doc) to figure out percentages.

Interesting, too, is that all the other resorts that come under the MVW umbrella are in that doc.

 

[dioxide45]

So it would put the OPs estimates pretty close to the numbers from the disclosures. 3059 MGO units owned, works out to about 20% (based on 51 weeks sold per unit).

 

[dioxide45]

The disclosure statement for the destination club points, which you have attached, has all of the information that the OP is looking for and it is updated periodically. I'm not quite sure how to continue to get the most recent version of this document other than from the USB thumb drive that they give out when you make a purchase.

Are these disclosures provided to every buyer or only those in California or Hawaii? If they go to everyone, it looks like @Fasttr needs to make an annual point purchase to obtain the updated disclosures

 

[dioxide45]

One thing these disclosures lack is the breakdown of weeks by season.

 

[SueDonJ]

Are these disclosures provided to every buyer or only those in California or Hawaii? If they go to everyone, it looks like @Fasttr needs to make an annual point purchase to obtain the updated disclosures

I agree, somebody has to fall on a sword, no reason it shouldn't be @Fasttr. <shrug>

 

[Fasttr]

I agree, somebody has to fall on a sword, no reason it shouldn't be @Fasttr. <shrug>

Its great to be loved!! ;-)