Hawaiian Electric provides update on Lahaina fires, response

[Tamaradarann]

I think the chances are reasonably high that you would not have run straight into the raging inferno.

Just for suppose sake. Are you saying that driving South or North getting out of Lahaina would have been OK to escape the Lahaina fire? If the sirens sounded would they have sounded in Ka'anapali? Kahana? Would people there have to evacuate? Would they have known that it was a fire and not a Tsunami where they would be required to evacuate?

 

[Mongoose]

I think the chances are reasonably high that you would not have run straight into the raging inferno.

Well there’s always the chance the smoke could be colorless, odorless and invisible to the naked eye. Not really

 

[ScoopKona]

Just for suppose sake. Are you saying that driving South or North getting out of Lahaina would have been OK to escape the Lahaina fire? If the sirens sounded would they have sounddy ed in Ka'anapali? Kahana? Would people there have to evacuate? Would they have known that it was a fire and not a Tsunami where they would be required to evacuate?

Better than doing nothing or not knowing, right? Right?

Many people had the only option of "out to sea," because of the lack of warning and time to do anything.

It was a cascade of failures which led to that disaster. And most of it was 100% preventable. Whether you know what to do or not is irrelevant. People who live there were screaming for action five years ago when wildfires hit the town and destroyed 20 buildings. I've already linked the town meeting elsewhere.

 

[1Kflyerguy]

Better than doing nothing or not knowing, right? Right?

Many people had the only option of "out to sea," because of the lack of warning and time to do anything.

It was a cascade of failures which led to that disaster. And most of it was 100% preventable. Whether you know what to do or not is irrelevant. People who live there were screaming for action five years ago when wildfires hit the town and destroyed 20 buildings. I've already linked the town meeting elsewhere.

I have to agree with you on this. While I can sort of understand the hesitation about sirens, in the end any notification would be better than none.

Sadly the lack of action for years is very similar to what we experienced here in Ca. It often takes a major disaster to implement change, even then is not certain...

 

[ScoopKona]

Sadly the lack of action for years is very similar to what we experienced here in Ca. It often takes a major disaster to implement change, even then is not certain...

I've kept from comparing Lahaina to California thus far, and I'll continue to refrain. I am, however, absolutely sick of California's stunningly stupid policies about fires, development in fire prone areas, and rebuilding the same areas over and over and over -- in some cases, rebuilding the same houses five times over the course of my adult life. (And probably a few more before that, back when I was more concerned with "Land of the Lost" than disaster management policy.

 

[Tamaradarann]

Better than doing nothing or not knowing, right? Right?

Many people had the only option of "out to sea," because of the lack of warning and time to do anything.

It was a cascade of failures which led to that disaster. And most of it was 100% preventable. Whether you know what to do or not is irrelevant. People who live there were screaming for action five years ago when wildfires hit the town and destroyed 20 buildings. I've already linked the town meeting elsewhere.

Your comment suggests that you don't understand that I agree that the warning siren should have sounded. However, what I am suggesting that just like most people who live on the coasts of the Hawaii Island understand the tsunami warning and what to do when it sounds, the people who live throughout the Hawaii Islands need to understand the warning calling for wild fire evacuation. Before this fire I have never heard any information or discussion about a wild fire alarm. That may really be why the Ex emergency management leader didn't sound the alarm; he really didn't know it was the right thing to do because it was never discussed and made policy. Perhaps the wild fire alarm should be a different sound like intermittent instead of steady. LETS ALL GET EDUCATED AND ON THE SAME PAGE TO AVOID ANOTHER DISASTER.

 

[Tamaradarann]

Better than doing nothing or not knowing, right? Right?

Many people had the only option of "out to sea," because of the lack of warning and time to do anything.

It was a cascade of failures which led to that disaster. And most of it was 100% preventable. Whether you know what to do or not is irrelevant. People who live there were screaming for action five years ago when wildfires hit the town and destroyed 20 buildings. I've already linked the town meeting elsewhere.

You mention that the people who live there were screaming for action five years ago. Well I guess they were not sucessful in getting any action done. As far as the Wild Fire Warning I am suggesting that a policy needs to be developed, an education campaign needs to be set up to communicate the policy, and the policy needs to be implemented.

 

[ScoopKona]

LETS ALL GET EDUCATED AND ON THE SAME PAGE TO AVOID ANOTHER DISASTER.

How about you get educated about what happened in 2018 the last time wildfires hit that town -- what residents wanted, what emergency planners said needed to happen, what went right, and what went wrong.

 

[davidvel]

Pure and utter guess and speculation, based solely on the now gone emergency head's comments and those of other local CYA politicians. If there is a legit review and accountability report:

The guy that left didn't really make any conscious decision to not sound the sirens, they simply didn't think of it. After the fact when questions were asked, they had to start making excuses as to their "decision" to not to sound them (not wanting to say we didn't think about it), which have obviously backfired, and he bailed out.

 

[ScoopKona]

The only reason this didn't happen five years ago is because the wind died at the last minute. 20 houses were destroyed. One person badly injured. A dog died. None of this was a surprise.

https://wapo.st/3QQI5wW

 

[BJRSanDiego]

Your comment suggests that you don't understand that I agree that the warning siren should have sounded. However, what I am suggesting that just like most people who live on the coasts of the Hawaii Island understand the tsunami warning and what to do when it sounds, the people who live throughout the Hawaii Islands need to understand the warning calling for wild fire evacuation. Before this fire I have never heard any information or discussion about a wild fire alarm. That may really be why the Ex emergency management leader didn't sound the alarm; he really didn't know it was the right thing to do because it was never discussed and made policy. Perhaps the wild fire alarm should be a different sound like intermittent instead of steady. LETS ALL GET EDUCATED AND ON THE SAME PAGE TO AVOID ANOTHER DISASTER.

I live in San Diego county and had first-hand experience in the 2003 and 2007 fire. The combined total area burned was 500,000 acres. Huge. In both fires, I could see the flames from the fires. Our exit route? Not towards the flames and smoke. Duh....

With the 2007 fire we got a 6 am robo call ("reverse 911") that two fires were converging and in 30 minutes our area would be overcome. That helped a lot. They didn't say go north, or go south, etc. But WE KNEW that there was a life-threatening problem and we knew our exit options. I think that if the sirens in Lahaina would have sounded, many people may not have burned to death. So, immediately we turned on our TV, turned on Ham Radio, looked outside at the smoke and figured out what was going on. Also, we packed out cars ready to evacuate. BTW, in a fire, if you can smell smoke, you are -- by definition - - downwind of the fire. That is a big warning sign.

It is so sad that this fire took the course it did - - excess fuel not remediated over several years of neglect (i.e. grass/brush), too many dwellings with flammable roofs, wooden fences connected directly to house, no defensible space, no FD units quickly on site to put out the re-ignition (at the same location) of the earlier fire, no alarm sounded, no water available to put out the fire, police not effectively helping people to evacuate. Honestly, I can't think of a worst way to have stacked the deck against Lahaina.

Shift to Lahaina - - IMHO that were several hours from when the fire started to go out of control to when the phone lines went down. Why weren't people notified? There were hours from when the fire re-emerged to when they could have sounded the sirens. The second fire appears to have been the same location as the initial fire - - why weren't there FD units held back ... just in case?

In SD county, the thousands of homes that burned tended to have inadequate "defensible space", had wooden fences connecting to the house, had flammable roofs, had too little space between buildings, had too much "fuel" too close to the house (wooden deck, patio furniture and fences, etc)_. IMHO, Lahaina was a disaster waiting to happen. Hopefully when they rebuild they'll address these issues.

 

[Tamaradarann]

How about you get educated about what happened in 2018 the last time wildfires hit that town -- what residents wanted, what emergency planners said needed to happen, what went right, and what went wrong.

Why do you sound so mad at me for agreeing with you that something should have been done before the 2023 Lahaina Disaster to avoid such a tragedy, but since it wasn't now is the time to do it to avoid a future tragedy.

 

[Tamaradarann]

Pure and utter guess and speculation, based solely on the now gone emergency head's comments and those of other local CYA politicians. If there is a legit review and accountability report:

The guy that left didn't really make any conscious decision to not sound the sirens, they simply didn't think of it. After the fact when questions were asked, they had to start making excuses as to their "decision" to not to sound them (not wanting to say we didn't think about it), which have obviously backfired, and he bailed out.

I agree with what you are saying here about the emergency management not sounding the sirens. I said above:

As far as the Wild Fire Warning I am suggesting that a policy needs to be developed, an education campaign needs to be set up to communicate the policy, and the policy needs to be implemented.

 

[Mongoose]

I am also not a fan of people being reckless with others safety nor I am a fan of being reckless with my and my families safety. I am not suggesting that the alarm shouldn't have been rung. Nor I am suggesting that people should not be treated as adults. I am suggesting that better information and direction is needed so that people make INFORMED decisions instead of doing whatever they think on their own is the right decision without information. I am informed about evacuating during a Tsunami warning. I am not informed about evacuating during a brush fire. Do all the people in Maui, West Maui, and Lahaina know that the sirens can sound for a brush fire evaculation? Are all the people in Maui, West Maui and Lahaina informed about evacuating during a brush fire and what direction they should go?

While I have been to Lahaina and have stayed in the area a number of times I would not have known what to do if the sirens sounded for a brush fire.

It’s not just a Tsunami Alarm, it’s an All Hazards Alarm. If you are not informed on what to do and you know it, take personal responsibility to educate yourself. The All Hazards Alarms are tested monthly. https://www.mauisirens.com/

“The all-hazard siren system can be used for a variety of both natural and human-caused events; including tsunamis, hurricanes, dam breaches, flooding, wildfires, volcanic eruptions, terrorist threats, hazardous material incidents, and more.”

 

[Tamaradarann]

I live in San Diego county and had first-hand experience in the 2003 and 2007 fire. The combined total area burned was 500,000 acres. Huge. In both fires, I could see the flames from the fires. Our exit route? Not towards the flames and smoke. Duh....

With the 2007 fire we got a 6 am robo call ("reverse 911") that two fires were converging and in 30 minutes our area would be overcome. That helped a lot. They didn't say go north, or go south, etc. But WE KNEW that there was a life-threatening problem and we knew our exit options. I think that if the sirens in Lahaina would have sounded, many people may not have burned to death. So, immediately we turned on our TV, turned on Ham Radio, looked outside at the smoke and figured out what was going on. Also, we packed out cars ready to evacuate. BTW, in a fire, if you can smell smoke, you are -- by definition - - downwind of the fire. That is a big warning sign.

It is so sad that this fire took the course it did - - excess fuel not remediated over several years of neglect (i.e. grass/brush), too many dwellings with flammable roofs, wooden fences connected directly to house, no defensible space, no FD units quickly on site to put out the re-ignition (at the same location) of the earlier fire, no alarm sounded, no water available to put out the fire, police not effectively helping people to evacuate. Honestly, I can't think of a worst way to have stacked the deck against Lahaina.

Shift to Lahaina - - IMHO that were several hours from when the fire started to go out of control to when the phone lines went down. Why weren't people notified? There were hours from when the fire re-emerged to when they could have sounded the sirens. The second fire appears to have been the same location as the initial fire - - why weren't there FD units held back ... just in case?

In SD county, the thousands of homes that burned tended to have inadequate "defensible space", had wooden fences connecting to the house, had flammable roofs, had too little space between buildings, had too much "fuel" too close to the house (wooden deck, patio furniture and fences, etc)_. IMHO, Lahaina was a disaster waiting to happen. Hopefully when they rebuild they'll address these issues.

As I have said before the Sirens should have been sounded. You mention the following from your San Diego experience and capitalized the We KNEW for emphaisis.

But WE KNEW that there was a life-threatening problem and we knew our exit options.

I have also said that the people of Lahaina should have known their exit options.

 

[Ken555]

You know TUG threads start the downward spiral when everyone agrees on what should be done but are still arguing amongst themselves because, well, some of us may have had just too much coffee, for instance.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[Tamaradarann]

It’s not just a Tsunami alarm, it’s an all hazards alarm. If you are not informed on what to do and you know it, take personal responsibility to educate yourself. The All Hazards Alarms are tested monthly. https://www.mauisirens.com/

“The all-hazard siren system can be used for a variety of both natural and human-caused events; including tsunamis, hurricanes, dam breaches, flooding, wildfires, volcanic eruptions, terrorist threats, hazardous material incidents, and more.”

Thank you for editfying me about the written emergency siren policy which I never read before. I wonder how many others have not read it. The siren alarm should certainly have been sounded. The emergency management people definitely didn't take appropriate action.

After the alarm is sounded the information does direct that one find out what the warning is for before taking action. Therefore, the emergency management department would have needed to be broadcasting specific direction to those in the danger area. With tsunami warnings it is given to all those in low areas near the water. Decisions would have needed to be made and specific direction would have needed to be given by the emergency management department to the those in the effected area.

 

[Mongoose]

Thank you for editfying me about the written emergency siren policy which I never read before. I wonder how many others have not read it. The siren alarm should certainly have been sounded. The emergency management people definitely didn't take appropriate action.

After the alarm is sounded the information does direct that one find out what the warning is for before taking action. Therefore, the emergency management department would have needed to be broadcasting specific direction to those in the danger area. With tsunami warnings it is given to all those in low areas near the water. Decisions would have needed to be made and specific direction would have needed to be given by the emergency management department to the those in the effected area.

It certainly seems like they are guilty of both negligence and incompetence. They go through a test every month, but don't match that with an education and communication component. There is a reason why every September is National Preparedness Month.

The criminal negligence in my opinion comes in play when the FD declared the original fire 100% contained and then apparently did not leave anyone there to monitor it throughout the day allowing for other flareup. However I have not seen a cause and origin report on the second ignition event.

 

[Tamaradarann]

It certainly seems like they are guilty of both negligence and incompetence. They go through a test every month, but don't match that with an education and communication component. There is a reason why every September is National Preparedness Month.

The criminal negligence in my opinion comes in play when the FD declared the original fire 100% contained and then apparently did not leave anyone there to monitor it throughout the day allowing for other flareup. However I have not seen a cause and origin report on the second ignition event.

OK I believe that most of us and perhaps all of us agree that the emergency sirens should have sounded for the Lahania Brush Fire. I believe that a Tsunami warning goes out to all low lying coastal areas for people to evacuate upland via evaulation routes that are marked with signs, so that seems straight forward. When we were at the Lawai Beach Resort in 2010 and the sirens sounded for a Tsunami, the Resort staff knocked on our doors and told us that we had to leave.

I don't know the specific capabilities of the Outdoor Emergency Management Sirens so I am going to ask some questions:

Can the system send out a warning just to the areas of Lahaina that were in danger of the fire?

If I was in Lahaina at the time would I have been safe to drive North toward Ka'anapali and Kahana if I was staying there?

Would the sirens have sounded in Ka'anapali and Kahana? If they did would those area have been required to evacuate?

 

[Mongoose]

OK I believe that most of us and perhaps all of us agree that the emergency sirens should have sounded for the Lahania Brush Fire. I believe that a Tsunami warning goes out to all low lying coastal areas for people to evacuate upland via evaulation routes that are marked with signs, so that seems straight forward. When we were at the Lawai Beach Resort in 2010 and the sirens sounded for a Tsunami, the Resort staff knocked on our doors and told us that we had to leave.

I don't know the specific capabilities of the Outdoor Emergency Management Sirens so I am going to ask some questions:

Can the system send out a warning just to the areas of Lahaina that were in danger of the fire?

If I was in Lahaina at the time would I have been safe to drive North toward Ka'anapali and Kahana if I was staying there?

Would the sirens have sounded in Ka'anapali and Kahana? If they did would those area have been required to evacuate?

Typically sirens would be selectable for specific areas. This was supposed to be the "best" system in the country. Even with the most basic decades old technology they were at least programed for zones or areas.

 

[BJRSanDiego]

As I have said before the Sirens should have been sounded. You mention the following from your San Diego experience and capitalized the We KNEW for emphaisis.

But WE KNEW that there was a life-threatening problem and we knew our exit options.

I have also said that the people of Lahaina should have known their exit options.

I agree with you that the sirens should have sounded.

When I packed my pickup truck in preparation for an evacuation, I included an industrial sized bolt cutter and a 20 foot logging chain. Reason? We only had one guaranteed "open" exit. And three of our other possible exits options were through a either a gated community or a private property with a chain that may or may not have been opened. I wasn't going to let a gate or a chain slow me down more than a couple of minutes when faced with an existential threat.

But our reverse 911 system worked perfectly. Woke me up at around 5:30 am and told me the danger that we were confronted with.

Yes, if the tsunami sirens would have sounded and the police directed by the fire department wouldn't have blocked some roads, maybe more would have been spared. What a horrible way to die. So sad.

 

[Mongoose]

But our reverse 911 system worked perfectly. Woke me up at around 5:30 am and told me the danger that we were confronted with.

Yes, if the tsunami sirens would have sounded and the police directed by the fire department wouldn't have blocked some roads, maybe more would have been spared. What a horrible way to die. So sad.

The Maui system has the same capabilities. When sounding the alarm the could also push out detailed instructions via many different mediums.

 

[Tamaradarann]

I agree with you that the sirens should have sounded.

When I packed my pickup truck in preparation for an evacuation, I included an industrial sized bolt cutter and a 20 foot logging chain. Reason? We only had one guaranteed "open" exit. And three of our other possible exits options were through a either a gated community or a private property with a chain that may or may not have been opened. I wasn't going to let a gate or a chain slow me down more than a couple of minutes when faced with an existential threat.

But our reverse 911 system worked perfectly. Woke me up at around 5:30 am and told me the danger that we were confronted with.

Yes, if the tsunami sirens would have sounded and the police directed by the fire department wouldn't have blocked some roads, maybe more would have been spared. What a horrible way to die. So sad.

Thank you for putting so many of the issues out there that I have been trying to emphasize and that just sounding the sirens is not enough. There is a great deal more information for the public as well as the authorities such as police and fire department to have for an effective evaculation. Most of us all agree with sounding the sirens.

While some here have said that the sirens can be localized to the area that needs to be evaluated that certainly is a step in the right direction. No one has said whether the areas near but outside of Lahaina would have had their siruns sounded and needed to be evacuated or if an evauatiion from Lahaina could have been to the North or the South.

 

[The Colorado Kid]

I agree with you that the sirens should have sounded.

When I packed my pickup truck in preparation for an evacuation, I included an industrial sized bolt cutter and a 20 foot logging chain. Reason? We only had one guaranteed "open" exit. And three of our other possible exits options were through a either a gated community or a private property with a chain that may or may not have been opened. I wasn't going to let a gate or a chain slow me down more than a couple of minutes when faced with an existential threat.

But our reverse 911 system worked perfectly. Woke me up at around 5:30 am and told me the danger that we were confronted with.

Yes, if the tsunami sirens would have sounded and the police directed by the fire department wouldn't have blocked some roads, maybe more would have been spared. What a horrible way to die. So sad.

Wow that is excellent prep having the bolt cutters ready to go!

 

[daventrina]

The criminal negligence in my opinion comes in play when the FD declared the original fire 100% contained and then apparently did not leave anyone there to monitor it throughout the day allowing for other flareup. However I have not seen a cause and origin report on the second ignition event.

There is yet no definitive indication that the second event was released to the first fire. It isn't like the FD showed up and left ... They were there for hours.