2023 MF's Discussion Thread

[Safti]

Lakeshore is coming out with their fees on Nov. 30 and Canyon Villas on Nov. 14.

 

[hcarman]

My Trust Points increased from .622 to .684, including property tax. This is an increase of 9.9%, with a 5.4% increase in my chairman club dues. The proposed budget for Mountainside included an 11+% increase. I think it is time for Owner boards to start looking for areas to cut expenses. Activity fees have increased more than inflation in all of my resorts and I don't use most of them. These can easily be reduced and should be self funding. Why should owners be paying for free booze for mostly non-owners. Oceana Palms has exhorbitant activity costs. These reductions would also lower HR and management overhead costs.

Ouch on the Trust Points increase and I remember them telling us that was a benefit of the Trust Points - they have very minimal increases. And why the increase in the club dues? I guess I never did understand what exactly the club dues cover.

 

[aka Julie]

My Trust Points increased from .622 to .684, including property tax. This is an increase of 9.9%, with a 5.4% increase in my chairman club dues. The proposed budget for Mountainside included an 11+% increase. I think it is time for Owner boards to start looking for areas to cut expenses. Activity fees have increased more than inflation in all of my resorts and I don't use most of them. These can easily be reduced and should be self funding. Why should owners be paying for free booze for mostly non-owners. Oceana Palms has exhorbitant activity costs. These reductions would also lower HR and management overhead costs.

Agree with the activities budget. We rarely go to any of them. Some of them are so lame. At Shadowridge one year they had a chocolate tasting. There was a total of less than 10 people and that is a huge property. And sometimes they are at very inconvenient hours.

 

[SueDonJ]

WOW. The 15.32% increase at Harbour Point is staggering to me, it jumped out as soon as I looked at the MF's thread this morning. It turns out it follows a year when the increase was less than the typical.

@rsackett, first, thanks for contributing to the MF's sticky threads. Second, can you provide any info that may have been shared by the HP board to explain the 15%, both as a wild swing in consecutive years as well as the particular focus on Reserves?? Is this a case of a mandated Fully-Funded Reserves waiver vote not passing??

Copying from MF's threads:

2023
Marriott's Harbour Point (2 Bedroom)
Operating Fee – $1008.98
Replacement Reserve - $592.41
Property Taxes - $93.37
TOTAL - $1694.76

Increase over 2022 MF's - $224.32 (15.32%)

and

2022
Harbour Point week 26
Marriott's Harbour Point, 2 bedroom week 26
Operating Fee: ..................$956.53
Replacement Reserve: ...$423.26
Property Taxes: ...................$90.65
TOTAL: .....................$1,470.44

Increase/decrease over 2021 MF's: $50.44 0r 3.56%

 

[VacationForever]

I got a sticker shock with DSV I as well. It had never gone up by more than $100 per year in the past. DSV I MF + property tax is now almost $2K. Never did I think that the maintenance fees would hit $2K so soon.

 

[rsackett]

WOW. The 15.32% increase at Harbour Point is staggering to me, it jumped out as soon as I looked at the MF's thread this morning. It turns out it follows a year when the increase was less than the typical.

@rsackett, first, thanks for contributing to the MF's sticky threads. Second, can you provide any info that may have been shared by the HP board to explain the 15%, both as a wild swing in consecutive years as well as the particular focus on Reserves?? Is this a case of a mandated Fully-Funded Reserves waiver vote not passing??
...

This is a quote from the maintence fee packare:

"Financial Attached to this letter is the budget established for 2023. Inflation has been in the news for most of the year, and our expenses have not been immune to its effects. While we have managed to keep the increase in the operating expense portion of the maintenance fee low for several years, inflation has made it necessary to increase that part of the budget to offset the rise in labor and utility costs, and other commodity prices. Also, due to the timing of several significant projects as discussed above, the Board decided it was that it was necessary to make a significant increase the Reserve portion of the maintenance fee for 2022. The Board also voted to transfer $900,000 from the Operating Capital line item to the Reserve Fund to reduce the overall increase to the maintenance fee.

After taking into account other revenues that offset some of our expenses, the maintenance fee increase as shown on the second line of the table on the attached “2023 Estimated Operating Budget” sheet is 15.3%. In context, the change in the maintenance fee has been an average of 5.6% for the past six years. "

Ray

 

[SueDonJ]

This is a quote from the maintence fee packare:

"Financial Attached to this letter is the budget established for 2023. Inflation has been in the news for most of the year, and our expenses have not been immune to its effects. While we have managed to keep the increase in the operating expense portion of the maintenance fee low for several years, inflation has made it necessary to increase that part of the budget to offset the rise in labor and utility costs, and other commodity prices. Also, due to the timing of several significant projects as discussed above, the Board decided it was that it was necessary to make a significant increase the Reserve portion of the maintenance fee for 2022. The Board also voted to transfer $900,000 from the Operating Capital line item to the Reserve Fund to reduce the overall increase to the maintenance fee.

After taking into account other revenues that offset some of our expenses, the maintenance fee increase as shown on the second line of the table on the attached “2023 Estimated Operating Budget” sheet is 15.3%. In context, the change in the maintenance fee has been an average of 5.6% for the past six years. "

Ray

Thank you!

 

[dougp26364]

It seems to me that MVC fees have always come in over the rate of inflation. The average of 5.6% over the last 6 years seems considerably higher than the rate of inflation during that period. 15% is definitely higher than the current rate of inflation.
At these rates MVC will eventually price themselves out of business. We’ve managed to keep up with the increases for over 20 years, but we’re not on a fixed income yet.

 

[rickandcindy23]

[Moderator Note: Moved from MF's sticky thread.] <-- SueDonJ

Shadow Ridge - Villages
Unit	2023 $	2022 $	Increase	% Inc
EY Gold
Operating	$ 1,463.67
Replacement	$ 476.92
Total	$ 1,940.59	$ 1,684.78	$255.81	15.2%​
Prop Tax Extra

Holy crap! Huge increase. What is the reason for that?

 

[Foggy1]

Holy crap! Huge increase. What is the reason for that?

At the Annual Meeting they blamed Inflation, Cost of Goods and Increased Labor due to Minimum Wage requirements and other standard excuses.

They are also undertaking a Remodel of all the rooms over a 3-4 year period. MAJOR remodel to the tune of $65,000/Unit. They have a "Mock up" of the new room in the 1000 Building. My opinion of the new configuration is If you visit the property, you might try to schedule a viewing of the new rooms.

 

[rickandcindy23]

My owners' account doesn't work. There is always an apology when I try to do anything. I cannot see maintenance fee packages, even for those resorts who have announced fees for 2023, like Shadow Ridge. I made a payment a while back, two months ago or so, of basically what fees were for 2022, just to get things aligned with my budget. Seeing the > 15% increase of Shadow Ridge is a bit of a shock. I hope they fix my ability to pay and book online. I am pretty disappointed in their website, and the Vistana website, which doesn't allow me to pay my second WKORV payment because the statement is not listed. Just one is listed. I have to call to pay that.

I thought websites were supposed to be easier for the company. It's nice to have less people on the phones, right?

I assume they will get everything fixed by the due date for our maintenance fees. I want to pay everything by 12/31 for tax purposes, since we have quite a bit of rental income for 2022.

 

[aka Julie]

My owners' account doesn't work. There is always an apology when I try to do anything. I cannot see maintenance fee packages, even for those resorts who have announced fees for 2023, like Shadow Ridge. I made a payment a while back, two months ago or so, of basically what fees were for 2022, just to get things aligned with my budget. Seeing the > 15% increase of Shadow Ridge is a bit of a shock. I hope they fix my ability to pay and book online. I am pretty disappointed in their website, and the Vistana website, which doesn't allow me to pay my second WKORV payment because the statement is not listed. Just one is listed. I have to call to pay that.

I thought websites were supposed to be easier for the company. It's nice to have less people on the phones, right?

I assume they will get everything fixed by the due date for our maintenance fees. I want to pay everything by 12/31 for tax purposes, since we have quite a bit of rental income for 2022.

I can’t see my Shadowridge bill either. Have been checking several times a day. Definitely not happy with the huge increase. $65,000 remodel in each unit. OMG. I bet the furniture will still be uncomfortable + no ceiling fans in bedrooms in a desert climate. We have not stayed there in several years due to splitting and getting 2 week trades in II. We will have to continue doing this to maximize our now over $2,000 cost (MF + property taxes). It may soon be time to chuck it.

 

[rickandcindy23]

I can’t see my Shadowridge bill either. Have been checking several times a day. Definitely not happy with the huge increase. $65,000 remodel in each unit. OMG. I bet the furniture will still be uncomfortable + no ceiling fans in bedrooms in a desert climate. We have not stayed there in several years due to splitting and getting 2 week trades in II. We will have to continue doing this to maximize our now over $2,000 cost (MF + property taxes). It may soon be time to chuck it.

I just bought, so chucking is not something I am going to do, but the fees are out of control. I wonder if Enclaves is going to be that high as well?

Lakeshore Reserve is something I would love to own, it's a favorite of my kids, but the fees kept me from buying a resale on ebay. I can pay the upgrade fee and use Shadow Ridge to trade in. It's going to be cheaper for me over owning a 2 bedroom at Lakeshore.

My ongoing searches for Maui for our 50th anniversary are not coming through with Shadow Ridge. I was sure I would have gotten a trade for March by now. Our kids were all going to join us on Maui for that special day. I don't see our daughter and oldest son making the trip with airfare so high now. We are going to do a trip to Wisconsin Dells instead, which will be so fun, too. That will be early June.

 

[klkaylor]

This thread made me go back and look hard at the data I had for 2019-2023 (changed system to manage points better)
I removed taxes as I the boards do not control that so...
Kept the Club fee in my trust points as I think the club fee/trust MF are fungible methods by which MVC gets it budget/profit
Here is my report so far - Timberlodge up 13.1% (6 units avg), Wiaohai up 22.3% Grand Chateau up 6.8%(two units averaged)
My trust points went up 18% but most of that was due to an increse in my dues to 295
Still waiting on Kolina, and Grand Residence in Tahoe.
One interesting point is that my points from weeks avg .43/pp - much less than the points from the trust - not including taxes.
Glad my points come from weeks - I could not afford that MF/pp if they were all from the trust.

 

[Red elephant]

I just bought, so chucking is not something I am going to do, but the fees are out of control. I wonder if Enclaves is going to be that high as well?

Lakeshore Reserve is something I would love to own, it's a favorite of my kids, but the fees kept me from buying a resale on ebay. I can pay the upgrade fee and use Shadow Ridge to trade in. It's going to be cheaper for me over owning a 2 bedroom at Lakeshore.

My ongoing searches for Maui for our 50th anniversary are not coming through with Shadow Ridge. I was sure I would have gotten a trade for March by now. Our kids were all going to join us on Maui for that special day. I don't see our daughter and oldest son making the trip with airfare so high now. We are going to do a trip to Wisconsin Dells instead, which will be so fun, too. That will be early June.

I had a great price on a 2 bedroom lockoff at Lakeshore but turned it down due to fees of $2300 and that does not include the increase for 2023. It’s ridiculous and with the merger I can use my SVR abound points to go there.

 

[jwalk03]

I had a great price on a 2 bedroom lockoff at Lakeshore but turned it down due to fees of $2300 and that does not include the increase for 2023. It’s ridiculous and with the merger I can use my SVR abound points to go there.

The problem with Lakeshore was failing to build it out more. With only 85 units its just so small that just makes the cost per week so much higher for the resort amenities.

Great resort to visit but I would never buy a week there with such high costs.

 

[Red elephant]

The problem with Lakeshore was failing to build it out more. With only 85 units its just so small that just makes the cost per week so much higher for the resort amenities.

Great resort to visit but I would never buy a week there with such high costs.

Then they really should just build it out as people will not continue to pay those fees. It’s still Orlando.

 

[jmhpsu93]

Then they really should just build it out as people will not continue to pay those fees. It’s still Orlando.

They sold the property that was originally going to be the next phase. I'd have been SAL-TY if I had bought with the understanding that MFs would reflect a larger resort footprint.

 

[Red elephant]

They sold the property that was originally going to be the next phase. I'd have been SAL-TY if I had bought with the understanding that MFs would reflect a larger resort footprint.

Omg!!! That is terrible.

 

[dioxide45]

They sold the property that was originally going to be the next phase. I'd have been SAL-TY if I had bought with the understanding that MFs would reflect a larger resort footprint.

I am not aware that they sold the adjacent land at Lakeshore Reserve. It is part of the larger Grande Lakes property. As far as I know, Marriott still owns it. It isn't like they could really sell it to some third party investor to build apartments.

 

[bazzap]

The problem with Lakeshore was failing to build it out more. With only 85 units its just so small that just makes the cost per week so much higher for the resort amenities.

Great resort to visit but I would never buy a week there with such high costs.

Several MVC resorts were never fully built out.
Playa Andaluza in Spain is another and this must have negatively impacted MFs for owners with fewer units than initially planned.

 

[dioxide45]

Several MVC resorts were never fully built out.
Playa Andaluza in Spain is another and this must have negatively impacted MFs for owners with fewer units than initially planned.

It seems to impact Harbour Lake as well. The fees there are $100+ than the fees at Grande Vista.

 

[Foggy1]

In reading about buildouts, I was reminded that during Shadow Ridge’s annual meeting last month, the subject was briefly discussed about the vacant land on site.

The vacant parcel (about 20 acres) along Shadow Ridge Rd. that goes out the back gate to Gerald Ford Dr. has been for sale for a few years. It sounds like they don’t have definite plans, or aren’t saying. Yes, it is, or might be for sale. Could be Condos, Single Family(?) or??? Didn’t give a real answer.

However, the second vacant parcel, the fenced property by the Enclaves, will be built out. Maybe starting in 2023. It did look like there was new activity in that area.

 

[dioxide45]

In reading about buildouts, I was reminded that during Shadow Ridge’s annual meeting last month, the subject was briefly discussed about the vacant land on site.

The vacant parcel (about 20 acres) along Shadow Ridge Rd. that goes out the back gate to Gerald Ford Dr. has been for sale for a few years. It sounds like they don’t have definite plans, or aren’t saying. Yes, it is, or might be for sale. Could be Condos, Single Family(?) or??? Didn’t give a real answer.

However, the second vacant parcel, the fenced property by the Enclaves, will be built out. Maybe starting in 2023. It did look like there was new activity in that area.

There is a for sale sign on the Gerald Ford entrance of the property. Canyon Villas is another property, similar to Lakeshore Reserve where their hands may be tied on selling the undeveloped land. It seems that MVC has no appetite for completing these builds. They can make much more money by flipping some urban hotel where they allocate a lot of points to small units. The points product has killed any new timeshares in overbuilt locations like Vegas, Orlando or Palm Desert.

 

[daviator]

There is a for sale sign on the Gerald Ford entrance of the property. Canyon Villas is another property, similar to Lakeshore Reserve where their hands may be tied on selling the undeveloped land. It seems that MVC has no appetite for completing these builds. They can make much more money by flipping some urban hotel where they allocate a lot of points to small units. The points product has killed any new timeshares in overbuilt locations like Vegas, Orlando or Palm Desert.

Westin Desert Willow (Palm Desert) is another property (Vistana, so only marginally off-topic here) that was never finished. There is room for (IIRC) 5 more buildings. During construction of previous phases, they built a lot of the infrastructure, including parking, curbs, and I assume they have plumbing and electric (conduit at least) running to the sites, it would have made sense to do that before they poured all the concrete and asphalt. They also built all the pools, I think, so the property actually has at least one more pool than it really needs for its current size. That impacts MFs as owners are paying for amenities that should have been divided among more VOIs. But once the sale to Marriott happened, they seem to have lost interest in finishing.

But the WDW land is landlocked and could not be developed for any other purpose, the only access is through the property, so they will have to develop them as timeshare units eventually, or just leave the land undeveloped.