VSN Features/Benefits Reduction and Elimination Post Abound Launch [Call to Action]

[timsi]

Is that the same guy quoted below saying you can continue to use your (5-Star) ownership like you have in the past? I'll tell that to the front-desk person at WSJ next time I ask for a late checkout, and we'll see how much that's worth...

I think we just need to wait and see... until then every marketing email will be coated with honey.

I agree but this is a public company, and these are public statements so they cannot play with the words like a rookie rep in a sales meeting.

 

[CPNY]

If you are a card-carrying dues-paying member in good standing with VSN as of 8/8/22, your mandatory & voluntary VOI ownership allows you to participate in the Abound program along with your ownership interests as of that date. I believe this has been stated and verified by Brian Miller, CEO of Marriott.

Where has it been stated and verified?

 

[sharr7]

The only thing to me that seems like an immediate, sure-to-happen, negative change is the banked points expiration from 2 years to 1. That is a pretty big deal and seems fairly unnecessary/antagonistic. The slightly earlier deadline to bank points for elites is fairly minor and more of an annoyance than a truly negative change. And I'm not 5* so doesn't affect me but I get the arguments over no more late checkout benefit, though again more annoyance than something that truly shifts how you plan/vacation.

I think there's overreaction to the Abound points and conversions though. For now, VSN is definitely still in operation and available to use as we always have. I'm not so naive to think they don't WANT to convert everything to one system or that in 20 years everything will be the same as it will be in 2023, but for now they intend to operate the systems concurrently (some have seen/noted different tabs on a demo website). Furthermore, during the months of speculation we've talked at length about if this will cause VSN availability to decrease - I'm of the opinion it will not significantly change things. Abound won't be able to just "steal" VSN weeks from owners - they will have to elect their week which will remove both the week and competition for reservations in VSN. I do expect Marriott will primarily dump their inventory into Abound now, but opinions here seem to be they don't own that much of the highly desirable inventory.

And the big positive is the 70+ new resorts and tons of new destinations to use our ownerships at. And it's not like II where you're never sure exactly what your week is worth and can get you. It's like a smaller but better II with all high-quality resorts where you know the value of your trade and the week you want to trade into. And instead of an exchange fee they simply offer you a few less points than your week is perhaps technically "worth" per the cost to reserve. And even if some of the conversions seem unfair or extreme, it's an option we didn't have before.

I've seen both arguments at the same time - usually with Hawaii resorts as an example - people who would never trade in HI for Abound points because it's so valuable (as rental or preferred vacation spot) and people who plan to trade HI into Abound because 6000-8000 points can get you anywhere in Abound, often for multiple weeks. That just shows there's a decent balance that MVW likely wants/expects. Everyone will have their own personal situations and opinions and one option that makes zero sense to you will be a perfect use for someone use. I think most timeshare owners do not rent - maybe even a majority here on TUG where there is constant rental/valuation/cost-conservation discussions.

I'm also not saying everything is perfect. I hate how they rolled it out so slowly and unclearly to (IMO) allow the sales staff to straight up lie for months about what's needed to join the mystery program (of course you need to buy more!). If they do eventually shut down VSN/StarOptions, that will be a big negative. They're still a large greedy company that looks after their shareholders over their customers. But I just think we'll still be able to find sweet spots in the system with the right approach. And I can't say they totally nerfed VSN when all signs say for now (until 2025?) nothing really changes. We'll see!

 

[dioxide45]

For 2023 - I already rented our WKORV OFD studio for $2800. That means we get 7 days on the OFD 1Bd side for ~$100/nt (assuming $3500 MF)

Yep… Abound sounds like a deal to us
(Sarcasm Alert)


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But in your case, VSN isn't beneficial either. You are using your home resort ownership.

 

[dioxide45]

If you are a card-carrying dues-paying member in good standing with VSN as of 8/8/22, your mandatory & voluntary VOI ownership allows you to participate in the Abound program along with your ownership interests as of that date. I believe this has been stated and verified by Brian Miller, CEO of Marriott.

Perhaps you could find the actual quote, instead of believing or guessing. Miller is also not the CEO of Marriott or Marriott Vacations Worldwide

 

[DavidnRobin]

But in your case, VSN isn't beneficial either. You are using your home resort ownership.

Correct. It has always been a downward exchange whether SOs or Abound. My point is it even less value in Abound.
I’ve actually used the studio side for a 1Bd, but after using the studio last March - I like the wall of windows and May use more if decide not to rent. Options are nice, but don’t see many using their OFD or OFC in Abound (or VSN). Especially OFD with their huge MFs.

We also own WKV (resale) and do use VSN, and plan was to use more but hard to turn down added value by renting.

Personally- I would be happy to not pay the VSN fee and opt out of VSN. Especially because they can charge anything they want for VSN.


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[EasyGoer]

Perhaps you could find the actual quote, instead of believing or guessing. Miller is also not the CEO of Marriott or Marriott Vacations Worldwide

My bad...Brian Miller is the president of Marriott Vacations Worldwide, not CEO. It's always good to make accurate these fine points.

I sure am glad Tuggers provide proof of everything they say or assert. It helps to avoid confusion and misunderstandings as well.

Important Information Regarding Abound by Marriott Vacations™

• The term “Club Dues” refers to either Exchange Company Dues (for members of the Abound by Marriott Vacations™ exchange program) or Club Dues/VSN Network Membership Fees (for Members of the Vistana Signature Network (“VSN”).
• Reservations using the Abound by Marriott Vacations™ exchange program are expected to be functional and go live in October 2022 for reservations beginning with the 2023 Use Year. Owners will be notified when this capability in Abound is available.
• Certain Owners who may be able to opt-out will not receive the Abound by Marriott Vacations exchange opportunity or consolidated a la carte fees but will still be required to pay VSN Network Membership Fees and separate a la carte transaction fees.
• Eligible Vacation Ownership Interests (“VOIs”):
  • Are those that are enrolled in VSN and were purchased from the Developer or through an authorized resale agent.
  • VOIs that were enrolled in VSN prior to August 9, 2022 that were purchased through an unauthorized resale agent or HOA resale offer will be given the opportunity to elect to receive Club Points and apply toward Owner benefit level.
• VOIs purchased through an unauthorized resale agent or HOA resale offer on or after August 9, 2022, and VOIs not enrolled in the VSN are not eligible.
• VOIs who may be able to opt-out of the additional exchange opportunities of using Abound and only pay the current VSN Membership Fees amount will not be able to use Club Points to reserve these resorts through Abound and will be responsible for paying separate transaction fees.

 

[dioxide45]

My bad...Brian Miller is the president of Marriott Vacations Worldwide, not CEO. It's always good to make accurate these fine points.

I sure am glad Tuggers provide proof of everything they say or assert. It helps to avoid confusion and misunderstandings as well.

Important Information Regarding Abound by Marriott Vacations™

• The term “Club Dues” refers to either Exchange Company Dues (for members of the Abound by Marriott Vacations™ exchange program) or Club Dues/VSN Network Membership Fees (for Members of the Vistana Signature Network (“VSN”).
• Reservations using the Abound by Marriott Vacations™ exchange program are expected to be functional and go live in October 2022 for reservations beginning with the 2023 Use Year. Owners will be notified when this capability in Abound is available.
• Certain Owners who may be able to opt-out will not receive the Abound by Marriott Vacations exchange opportunity or consolidated a la carte fees but will still be required to pay VSN Network Membership Fees and separate a la carte transaction fees.
• Eligible Vacation Ownership Interests (“VOIs”):
  • Are those that are enrolled in VSN and were purchased from the Developer or through an authorized resale agent.
  • VOIs that were enrolled in VSN prior to August 9, 2022 that were purchased through an unauthorized resale agent or HOA resale offer will be given the opportunity to elect to receive Club Points and apply toward Owner benefit level.
• VOIs purchased through an unauthorized resale agent or HOA resale offer on or after August 9, 2022, and VOIs not enrolled in the VSN are not eligible.
• VOIs who may be able to opt-out of the additional exchange opportunities of using Abound and only pay the current VSN Membership Fees amount will not be able to use Club Points to reserve these resorts through Abound and will be responsible for paying separate transaction fees.

This is no different than the language that is under discussion in much of this thread. 1) we don't know how "enrolled in VSN" is defined. 1) We don't know if there is something more behind "given the opportunity". Why is it not worded like the bullet right above it? Why the need for the additional verbiage about electing and benefit level.

There is also nothing in there about Voluntary ownerships being able to participate in Abound.

 

[CPNY]

This is no different than the language that is under discussion in much of this thread. 1) we don't know how "enrolled in VSN" is defined. 1) We don't know if there is something more behind "given the opportinity. Why is it not worded like the bullet right above it? Why the need for the additional verbiage about electing and benefit level.

CS rep at vistana told me today (after checking with a supervisor) that any VOI that has Star option usage attached to it will be eligible to convert to club points.

 

[pchung6]

This “given the opportunity” and “opt out” really bother me. We still don’t know what is really behind these words yet.

 

[Jayco29D]

This is no different than the language that is under discussion in much of this thread. 1) we don't know how "enrolled in VSN" is defined. 1) We don't know if there is something more behind "given the opportunity". Why is it not worded like the bullet right above it? Why the need for the additional verbiage about electing and benefit level.

There is also nothing in there about Voluntary ownerships being able to participate in Abound.

I am sure you already know this but Vistana has different language on their website. They say:

Access to the benefits of Abound by Marriott Vacations™ starts when you can elect to receive Club Points for your eligible VOI(s).*

* Owners with Vacation Ownership Interests (VOIs) in the Vistana Signature Network that were purchased from the Developer or reseller and are enrolled in the VSN prior to August 9, 2022, will have the option to annually elect to receive Club Points for those VOIs for use in Abound by Marriott Vacations.

So why the difference in wording? In this wording, they more clearly appear to be saying developer purchased and resales in VSN prior to 8/9 are going to be treated the same, right?

 

[CPNY]

This “given the opportunity” and “opt out” really bother me. We still don’t know what is really behind these words yet.

It could mean that mandatory resale owners still pay the VSN dues with the a la carte fees but each year we can elect to convert to club points? Or we pay the abound club dues but ONLY can convert to club dues? maybe we don’t get the interval benefits as well?

 

[rcv82]

There is also nothing in there about Voluntary ownerships being able to participate in Abound.

It is not obvious why they would let non-requalified mandatory resales participate in Abound and not non-requalified voluntary resales. Possible reasons include:
- They plan to get rid of VSN at some point, and Abound becomes the new “club”.
- The mandatory properties include some of the best in the system, and they want to get more of them into Abound for exchangers
- They think for some legal reason they need to do this. (There is nothing obvious as to why this would be the case if they keep VSN.)
- They are just making random decisions
- They really aren’t going to and this is all a big tease
- They recognize mandatory resale purchasers are such a sophisticated group they just can’t resist letting them in the new club

Any other ideas?


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[CPNY]

It is not obvious why they would let non-requalified mandatory resales participate in Abound and not non-requalified voluntary resales. Possible reasons include:
- They plan to get rid of VSN at some point, and Abound becomes the new “club”.
- The mandatory properties include some of the best in the system, and they want to get more of them into Abound for exchangers
- They think for some legal reason they need to do this. (There is nothing obvious as to why this would be the case if they keep VSN.)
- They are just making random decisions
- They really aren’t going to and this is all a big tease
- They recognize mandatory resale purchasers are such a sophisticated group they just can’t resist letting them in the new club

Any other ideas?


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Can they really ever get rid of the VSN? It may not be as easy as we think. Deeded week owners have 12-8 months to book their season/week. They would have to change a lot of legal documents to make that work. It may not be worth it to do. They can starve it making Abound more attractive.

at the end of the day, they want more vistana owners to sell Club Points to. Now it doesn’t matter where they go to buy them. Soon club points will be sold at all locations. I assume the flex plans are no longer being sold?

 

[rcv82]

Can they really ever get rid of the VSN? It may not be as easy as we think. Deeded week owners have 12-8 months to book their season/week. They would have to change a lot of legal documents to make that work. It may not be worth it to do. They can starve it making Abound more attractive.

at the end of the day, they want more vistana owners to sell Club Points to. Now it doesn’t matter where they go to buy them. Soon club points will be sold at all locations. I assume the flex plans are no longer being sold?

This is just hypocritical. But, I don’t think they would have to change home priority period to do this. You book your home time or deposit into Abound for exchange. The part that would change is there would be no VSN network period under 8 months. This is very similar to how a non-VSN (I.e., voluntary resale) week works now with II.


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[EasyGoer]

This is no different than the language that is under discussion in much of this thread. 1) we don't know how "enrolled in VSN" is defined. 1) We don't know if there is something more behind "given the opportunity". Why is it not worded like the bullet right above it? Why the need for the additional verbiage about electing and benefit level.

There is also nothing in there about Voluntary ownerships being able to participate in Abound.

1. I don't particularly understand how "enrolled in VSN" can be misconstrued to mean something other than what is being stated unless it taken out of context but I can certainly tell you what it doesn't mean.

2. If the statement "enrolled in VSN" doesn't mean someone who is a dues paying member in good standing in VSN, then NOBODY is a member. Everyone is eliminated. No one is "given the opportunity" to participate in Abound which is obviously not true.

 

[dioxide45]

1. I don't particularly understand how "enrolled in VSN" can be misconstrued to mean something other than what is being stated unless it taken out of context but I can certainly tell you what it doesn't mean.

2. If the statement "enrolled in VSN" doesn't mean someone who is a dues paying member in good standing in VSN, then NOBODY is a member. Everyone is eliminated. No one is "given the opportunity" to participate in Abound which is obviously not true.

I am just pointing out the argument people are trying to make here. I don't necessarily agree. Here is how the Exchange Procedures define "VSN Member".

VSN Member means a member of the Vistana Signature Network who is current in all dues, fees and other amounts owed to the Network Operator and is compliant with the applicable Vistana Signature Network Rules and Regulations governing the reservation and use of Units and Network Resort facilities, as promulgated, adopted, or amended from time to time by Network Operator pursuant to the Network Documents.

Based on that, it would seem that anyone that can reserve in network with VSN is considered a VSN Member and can elect Club Points.

 

[dioxide45]

It is not obvious why they would let non-requalified mandatory resales participate in Abound and not non-requalified voluntary resales. Possible reasons include:
- They plan to get rid of VSN at some point, and Abound becomes the new “club”.
- The mandatory properties include some of the best in the system, and they want to get more of them into Abound for exchangers
- They think for some legal reason they need to do this. (There is nothing obvious as to why this would be the case if they keep VSN.)
- They are just making random decisions
- They really aren’t going to and this is all a big tease
- They recognize mandatory resale purchasers are such a sophisticated group they just can’t resist letting them in the new club

Any other ideas?


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It seems that they have tied membership in Abound to being a VSN Member. They did this in order to provide all VSN Members/Owners automatic enrollment into Abound. They wanted mass enrollment instead of the process that took place in 2010 when MVC rolled out the DC program and only about 35-40 people signed up in the first year or two. They are closer to if not over 50% now but they had hoped for more. They didn't want to provide an opt-in and instead willing to offer an opt-out. Even for free, many people would still not opt-in.

Since Voluntary owners are not members of VSN, they can't be part of Abound. They could however have offered them the ability to enroll their VOIs in much the same way Marriott did for MVC owners back in 2010. Giving them the opt-in option, but I suspect they will try to offer them options to buy up to Abound membership through requalification.

 

[Eric B]

If one were to read the Abound Exchange Procedures one would be able to see that the sticking point is not whether a mandatory resale week can be exchanged into Abound and receive Club Points. Instead, it seems to me that the issue is whether they can be used only for Base Exchange Privileges or also for Base Plus Exchange Privileges. I had posted what I found in that document earlier — the gist of it winds up being whether you can make an exchange outside of 60 days prior to check in.

Vistana Update from Marriott Insider

Wont the owners of those resorts still have the 8 to 12 month booking window? I should have specified that Marriott fishing for weeks on top of owners booking their weeks. This reinforces the fact to buy where you want to go. And I am going to add: when you want to go (season)

tugbbs.com

See post #147

 

[JIMinNC]

If one were to read the Abound Exchange Procedures one would be able to see that the sticking point is not whether a mandatory resale week can be exchanged into Abound and receive Club Points. Instead, it seems to me that the issue is whether they can be used only for Base Exchange Privileges or also for Base Plus Exchange Privileges. I had posted what I found in that document earlier — the gist of it winds up being whether you can make an exchange outside of 60 days prior to check in.

Vistana Update from Marriott Insider

Wont the owners of those resorts still have the 8 to 12 month booking window? I should have specified that Marriott fishing for weeks on top of owners booking their weeks. This reinforces the fact to buy where you want to go. And I am going to add: when you want to go (season)

tugbbs.com

See post #147

That exact language on Base Exchange Privileges and Base Plus Exchange Privileges has been in the Marriott Exchange Procedures since the inception of the Destination Club in 2010 and refers only to resale TRUST POINTS that are purchased from an outside broker/reseller and for which the $3/point initiation fee has not been paid. It has never applied to points from enrolled resale weeks.

 

[alexadeparis]

Obviously we are all still guessing to a degree, but I believe the following will occur based on what i know about the MVC 2010 rollout - stay with me here:
1) Developer units (and requaled units of all types that now have star options prior to 8/8) will be "enrolled in Abound" for either free, which is what i believe, or a very modest fee, sub $500. This is how MVC treated new and resale MVC points purchasers after the rollout. Even with the junk fees, overall its not a bad price, and people still buy resale MVC points.

2) the non requalified mandatorys that have SO use prior to 8/8 that will be given the "opportunity to enroll" will require a fee, probably between $500 and $2,500, per account not per unit. but will then be washed clean and will be full members of Abound. These units are similar in many ways to the holdouts that owned their Marriott weeks pre 2010 that decided never to enroll, in that they have not decided to enroll but could if they chose to spend that money.


3) Whether or not non requaled voluntarys will be allowed in without a new MVC points purchase, my guess is this will only be available with a full blown MVC purchase, kind of like how the Marriott post 2010 weeks are treated today, and the reason i think this is because they are most like the Marriott post 2010 units in form and function - the voluntarys have no SOs, so you either use your home week or trade in II. They were bought knowing that. much like the post 2010 Marriott weeks, and therefore these will be strictly pay to play.

 

[dioxide45]

Obviously we are all still guessing to a degree, but I believe the following will occur based on what i know about the MVC 2010 rollout - stay with me here:
1) Developer units (and requaled units of all types that now have star options prior to 8/8) will be "enrolled in Abound" for either free, which is what i believe, or a very modest fee, sub $500. This is how MVC treated new and resale MVC points purchasers after the rollout. Even with the junk fees, overall its not a bad price, and people still buy resale MVC points.

2) the non requalified mandatorys that have SO use prior to 8/8 that will be given the "opportunity to enroll" will require a fee, probably between $500 and $2,500, per account not per unit. but will then be washed clean and will be full members of Abound. These units are similar in many ways to the holdouts that owned their Marriott weeks pre 2010 that decided never to enroll, in that they have not decided to enroll but could if they chose to spend that money.


3) Whether or not non requaled voluntarys will be allowed in without a new MVC points purchase, my guess is this will only be available with a full blown MVC purchase, kind of like how the Marriott post 2010 weeks are treated today, and the reason i think this is because they are most like the Marriott post 2010 units in form and function - the voluntarys have no SOs, so you either use your home week or trade in II. They were bought knowing that. much like the post 2010 Marriott weeks, and therefore these will be strictly pay to play.

These are my guesses, I don't think there will a fee for anyone (it has been mentioned by executives that there is no incremental cost). That may only apply to the bulk of their ownership which bought developer, but I don't think so. I think it will be automatic for everyone in VSN. I can say with just about 100% certainty that there is no cost to enroll or become a member of Abound for anyone in VSN, developer or mandatory.

For the mandatory resales that have not been requalified there will be no cost to elect Club Points, but their Abound Owner Benefit Level will be stuck at "Owner", unless they have some other qualified (developer, requal) ownerships whose points or VSN Elite status get them to a higher level. They won't be washed clean. Abound Club Points from non qualified mandatory resales won't count toward Abound OBLs. Kind of like how it works with StarOptions in VSN.

Mandatory owners can requalify their ownership in VSN and then have their Abound Club Points count toward OBLs. Voluntary resales will always be given the opportunity to requalify their weeks to fully play in VSN and Abound. Cost to be determined (may not be the old $15K+$5K)

The only way to "wash clean" is to requalify in whatever method they provide in the future.

 

[Eric B]

These are my guesses, I don't think there will a fee for anyone (it has been mentioned by executives that there is no incremental cost). That may only apply to the bulk of their ownership which bought developer, but I don't think so. I think it will be automatic for everyone in VSN. I can say with just about 100% certainty that there is no cost to enroll or become a member of Abound for anyone in VSN, developer or mandatory.

For the mandatory resales that have not been requalified there will be no cost to elect Club Points, but their Abound Owner Benefit Level will be stuck at "Owner", unless they have some other qualified (developer, requal) ownerships whose points or VSN Elite status get them to a higher level. They won't be washed clean. Abound Club Points from non qualified mandatory resales won't count toward Abound OBLs. Kind of like how it works with StarOptions in VSN.

Mandatory owners can requalify their ownership in VSN and then have their Abound Club Points count toward OBLs. Voluntary resales will always be given the opportunity to requalify their weeks to fully play in VSN and Abound. Cost to be determined (may not be the old $15K+$5K)

The only way to "wash clean" is to requalify in whatever method they provide in the future.

That would misalign the club dues with the costs because of the lower dues for Owners.

 

[dioxide45]

That would misalign the club dues with the costs because of the lower dues for Owners.

I am not sure what you mean. A pure mandatory resale owner would be Owner level. Thus they would pay the Club Fee that aligns to the Owner level ($230).

 

[Eric B]

I am not sure what you mean. A pure mandatory resale owner would be Owner level. Thus they would pay the Club Fee that aligns to the Owner level ($230).

but avoid housekeeping fees for more stays.