VSN Features/Benefits Reduction and Elimination Post Abound Launch [Call to Action]

[Ken555]

Their message has changed from Marriott is great and fair to just suck it up.

Yes. There’s also an undercurrent that those of us which bought WKV to trade internally should be thankful we had the time we did since it never made sense that it had as many SOs as it does, that some of us are too cheap to get the better resorts, etc. I’m sorry to say this, but I definitely feel some elitism coming out in certain posts.


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[wjarcher]

Apparently not every Vistana owner can opt out so who are those that can? For those who can opt out, will the banking still be 2 years and not 1? Will we retain all the other features? Will the inventory in VSN going to be as before?

Just because they say that some can opt out it does not mean they will continue to enjoy what they have now, this is another smoke screen.

My guess is that all VSN owners can opt out (because they are the users who are eligible for Abound). The banking rule will be applied to VSN also down the road, so it does not matter whether you opt out or not. Will the inventory in VSN be the same? Especially with the way in which Abound uses opt-out model rather than opt-in, the VSN inventory will definitely decrease. (That is the sneaky part about Marriott this time. Maybe they don't have a lot of VSN underlying weeks to kick off the new program.)

 

[TravelTime]

From exchange value perspective, WKV is the one resort that is significantly devalued from VSN to Abound. A Marriott Ocean Club 2 BR Garden view converts to 4725 points; 1BR Garden view converts to 3100 points. Lagunamar Platinum+ converts similar points (a little higher) compared with MOC 2BR. Even SVV 2BR (converts to 2800 points) is comparable to a 1BR in MOC. WKORV/N has the best value from VSN to Abound.

Marriott assigned values comparable to properties already in thise locations. That might be a reason.

 

[TravelTime]

Apparently not every Vistana owner can opt out so who are those that can? For those who can opt out, will the banking still be 2 years and not 1? Will we retain all the other features? Will the inventory in VSN going to be as before?

Just because they say that some can opt out it does not mean they will continue to enjoy what they have now, this is another smoke screen.

I thought it means opt out of paying the new fee that packages everything together and you can keep the current fee where you pay the annual fee plus a la carte for other services.

 

[timsi]

My guess is that all VSN owners can opt out (because they are the users who are eligible for Abound). The banking rule will be applied to VSN also down the road, so it does not matter whether you opt out or not. Will the inventory in VSN be the same? Especially with the way in which Abound uses opt-out model rather than opt-in, the VSN inventory will definitely decrease. (That is the sneaky part about Marriott this time. Maybe they don't have a lot of VSN underlying weeks to kick off the new program.)

If you are only guessing the answer to the first question and the answer to the second and the third is no, please do not suggest that opting out is a true alternative for those that do not like the new program.

 

[wjarcher]

If you are only guessing the answer to the first question and the answer to the second and the third is no, please do not suggest that opting out is a true alternative for those that do not like the new program.

We'll see. My guess is that a lot of VSN inventory are due to owners who are not actively managing their timeshare weeks. For them, they most likely won't opt-out.

 

[Ken555]

Well, I just received this email from VSN. I assume they aren't silly enough to email this to voluntary owners or those who would not be able to use Abound (such as mandatory resale WKV owners such as myself), but then again who knows.

 

[EnglishmanAbroad]

From exchange value perspective, WKV is the one resort that is significantly devalued from VSN to Abound. A Marriott Ocean Club 2 BR Garden view converts to 4725 points; 1BR Garden view converts to 3100 points. Lagunamar Platinum+ converts similar points (a little higher) compared with MOC 2BR. Even SVV 2BR (converts to 2800 points) is comparable to a 1BR in MOC. WKORV/N has the best value from VSN to Abound.

If the numbers we were given are accurate, we are actually getting better value from our Lagunamar ownership at 19.341 SO/pt than our WKORV/N at 23.887 SO/pt.

 

[Ken555]

If the numbers we were given are accurate, we are actually getting better value from our Lagunamar ownership at 19.341 SO/pt than our WKORV/N at 23.887 SO/pt.

I don't believe WKORV was ever considered an affordable SO trader. Most owners bought to stay there.

 

[TravelTime]

If the numbers we were given are accurate, we are actually getting better value from our Lagunamar ownership at 19.341 SO/pt than our WKORV/N at 23.887 SO/pt.

I think your numbers are probably accurate since they have already told people the number Abound points they can get. I do not know the conversions other than for my week. I have heard Vistana has given really good value to Lagunamar.

 

[DavidnRobin]

No skim in VSN. And once again, I’ve not had issues reserving what I needed using StarOptions for 15 years. With Abound I wouldn’t be able to get the same number of nights at the same resorts. What knowledge about how to maximum Abound points am I misunderstanding?


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For 2023 - I already rented our WKORV OFD studio for $2800. That means we get 7 days on the OFD 1Bd side for ~$100/nt (assuming $3500 MF)

Yep… Abound sounds like a deal to us
(Sarcasm Alert)


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[EnglishmanAbroad]

I don't believe WKORV was ever considered an affordable SO trader. Most owners bought to stay there.

As did we. The only times I've ever traded 'like for like' was when I left booking late and couldn't get in at WKORV/N so went for 2 weeks in the 1BR/Studio split at Princeville instead (wasn't impressed) and a week in the 2BR at Nanea, got a decent Resort View unit and at least had use of the Pirate Ship at WKORV/N for our grandson.

 

[CPNY]

That’s not the point and I’m fairly sure you know that. Of course everyone is welcome to post their thoughts. What is irritating is that this is the Vistana forum and we are being lectured to by Marriott fanatics about how great the new product is when that makes absolutely no sense to many of us, and yet they keep doing it over and over and over…


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When you try and do that in the Marriott forum, you’re reminded that it’s the Marriott forum and other view points are not welcomed lol

 

[Ken555]

When you try and do that in the Marriott forum, you’re reminded that it’s the Marriott forum and other view points are not welcomed lol

Wow, really? Who are those people?


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[pchung6]

Wow, really? Who are those people?

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When you try and do that in the Marriott forum, you’re reminded that it’s the Marriott forum and other view points are not welcomed lol

You guys remind me all the warnings I got and almost got banned there.

 

[CPNY]

You guys remind me all the warnings I got and almost got banned there.

Same lol

 

[timsi]

I just received the email from Vistana about Abound and watched the video.

According to Brian Miller, President of MVW:
" One thing to point out. Nothing with your existing ownership changes. All the usage options, all the usage options you have today, all the rights you have, you can continue to use just as you have in the past."

Wow, how is this accurate? In fact:

• No more exclusive rights to book during the home reservation period.
• VSN has become a second-class exchange network. Vistana sold VOIs based on the StarOptions chart and VSN was a pivotal point in the decision to purchase. Important features will be removed (like 2 years banking) and now Abound (an Exchange like VSN) will have 4 months of priority ahead of VSN.
• The fragmentation of inventory. Already too many buckets in Vistana (resort owners, flex owners, VSN, both resale and retail, units controlled by Vistana/Marriott). Placing Abound at the same level with the resort owners (12 months reservation period) will have a huge impact on VSN, especially for the weeks and resorts that are already hard to book.
• Banked StarOptions will expire after 12 months (18 months for Presidential; 24 months for Chairman). This is a huge loss for those who do not own a gazillion points. Currently it's 24 months for all. (Impacts all except 5-Star Elite / Chairman, and resale voluntary)
• Banking StarOptions deadlines will be 31-61 days earlier for most Elite owners (Oct 31 for Chairman and Aug 31 for Executive or Presidential). Currently it's December 31 for 5-Star and Oct 1 for 3-Star and 4-Star. (Impacts mostly VSN Elite Owners)
• No more early check-in and late checkout. Currently it's a benefit for 5-Star Elite (Impacts 5-Star Elite Owners)
• No more concierge services
• The mandatory VOIs have the potential to have a lower resale value due to the changes. Any owner who buys mandatory resale after 8/9 will only have access to a seriously weakened VSN.

 

[emeryjre]

I find it difficult to use an iPad on the forum and trying to reply
screwed up the edit.
I will send an email to various levels of Marriot management pointing out the items that have changed with our VSN Voi ownership

 

[daviator]

The question is not what those who only use or rent Maui will do but rather will happen with those that have traded in VSN and whether they will continue with VSN or Abound. I have not seen one hand raised for VSN from a Maui owner but I have many raised for Abound.

I own at WKORV and WKORVN (OV) and have no plans to elect for Abound. In our case, we just don't have any great desire to travel to any of the MVC resort locations, and we bought Westin because we prefer the higher-quality resorts. That's not a slam on Abound, just our feeling for now. Never say never, it's not impossible to imagine that we might elect on rare occasion.

I see both the advantages and disadvantages of election. I actually think that, based on what we know, MVC has done a decent job of balancing the interests of all members. There was a lot of interest in providing reciprocal access to properties for MVC and Vistana owners, and they did that. There are some wins and some losses... as an elite member, I'm unhappy about the losses to elite privileges. But I do think the access to additional properties makes this a win for most people, at least so long as VSN continues to be viable. I'll be unhappy if VSN is starved to the point of uselessness. Most years, I anticipate wanting to continue to trade into VSN resorts.

 

[EasyGoer]

Just some observations from a Vistana owner that has been absorbing all the information regarding the Abound program which has been very helpful.

1. We purchased Vistana VOI 18 years ago because we basically liked the Starwood program and the participating resorts which we have enjoyed going to every year. Over the years, we have now stayed at 16 of the 23 resorts. We really didn't purchase with the idea of trading either through RCI or II because for us, going to Hawaii, St. Johns, Cabo, Lagunamar, Scottsdale, Vistana Villages, Westin Riverfront, etc. has been enjoyable and easy through internal trading in Vistana. If we wanted to go to Marriott resorts (which we have) we simply used Marriott Bonvoy.

2. It seems to me that trading (converting) to Club Points is something akin to trading the same horse twice. I certainly would not do it to trade back to my own resort. (or one that I could reserve internally through Vistana) It also appears to me that that when you start converting, a big wet bite is taken by Marriott. That's why I see inequity or imbalances as a result of a conversion when reserving another property.

3. Last summer (June 2021), I was successful in securing seven(7) units (an outlier to be sure) at WKORN and Nanea, three of which were ocean view and four resort view. This was a combination of of two and one bedroom units to accommodate 22 adults. I had to borrow from this year's SO to accomplish it but was well worth it for 7 days of sand and surf. I did a computation of what I would have had to pay if I rented directly through Westin and it was approximately $40,000. I did the same thing when our whole family went to the Westin St. John resort. I did it all through the Vistana internal reservation system and I did it without converting anything and it cost me nothing.

4. The point is: None of this easily happens (if at all) through the Abound program. I do know and understand that Tuggers here have found new and creative ways of converting and exchanging effectively using their owner interest. It's all interesting and fascinating, it is.
Know this however, the average timeshare owner is not as sophisticated and dedicated to spending the time and effort to trading as Tuggers.
I'm not saying that I will never convert my Vistana VOI to Club Points, I'll probably first have to get tired of going to Hawaii, Caribbean, the Yucatan, Arizona, Colorado or Harborside. I'm sure that will probably happen some day.

 

[grrrah]

Well, I just received this email from VSN. I assume they aren't silly enough to email this to voluntary owners or those who would not be able to use Abound (such as mandatory resale WKV owners such as myself), but then again who knows.

View attachment 63747

Just got this too. I think this means we won't have to requalify anything. Maybe a fee, but I doubt its significant as they are already saying "through our membership in VSN".

 

[EasyGoer]

If you are a card-carrying dues-paying member in good standing with VSN as of 8/8/22, your mandatory & voluntary VOI ownership allows you to participate in the Abound program along with your ownership interests as of that date. I believe this has been stated and verified by Brian Miller, CEO of Marriott.

 

[dioxide45]

At Lagunamar and Cancun a 2 BR high season is 148,100 SOs and a 2 BR low season is 81K. I can't get the math to work for these using the SO charts.

Sorry. I fixed my post. I meant to say you can get a 1BR low season for 13 nights with 81K.

 

[DanCali]

For 2023 - I already rented our WKORV OFD studio for $2800. That means we get 7 days on the OFD 1Bd side for ~$100/nt (assuming $3500 MF)

Yep… Abound sounds like a deal to us
(Sarcasm Alert)


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To be fair, WKORV/N is the one of the few resorts that was probably treated relatively generously (looks like Lagunamar Platinum and WRF Platinum will be as well).

Just to illustrate, when it comes to rental values the 8300(?) points WKORV OF receives are worth around $5600 in the points rental market ($0.68/point at vacationpointexchange.com). I suspect that is just slightly lower than renting out the entire VOI but maybe by less than 10%? And renting out points is arguably less hassle and less risk than renting a week - just receive a payment and make a call to transfer them. No contracts, changes, special requests, cancelations etc.

So if you view that minor difference as an exchange fee you gain (i) less hassle in the rental process or (ii) access to around 60 new resorts where 8300 points have substantial trading power, especially outside of Maui.

It probably doesn't make a difference if you just go to WKORV every year but if you don't then you can get some extremely nice options closer to home like Lake Tahoe (Marriott and Ritz) or Orange County (Newport Coast Villas) where you can book a full week and probably have quite a few leftover points you can rent out to offset MFs. To me, those options are more appealing than the CA desert options Vistana offers, and in fact we own at Newport Coast. You can also combine a trip to WPORV with a stay at Waiohai (great all-2BR resort) in Poipu. Basically - new and potentially attractive options.

I'm certainly no fan of many of the changes but I do own with both systems and, in this case, let's just say that if I knew back in March that resale mandatory weeks would be allowed in, I would have purchased 2-3 WKORV/N weeks.

 

[DanCali]

If you are a card-carrying dues-paying member in good standing with VSN as of 8/8/22, your mandatory & voluntary VOI ownership allows you to participate in the Abound program along with your ownership interests as of that date. I believe this has been stated and verified by Brian Miller, CEO of Marriott.

Is that the same guy quoted below saying you can continue to use your (5-Star) ownership like you have in the past? I'll tell that to the front-desk person at WSJ next time I ask for a late checkout, and we'll see how much that's worth...

I think we just need to wait and see... until then every marketing email will be coated with honey.

I just received the email from Vistana about Abound and watched the video.

According to Brian Miller, President of MVW:
" One thing to point out. Nothing with your existing ownership changes. All the usage options, all the usage options you have today, all the rights you have, you can continue to use just as you have in the past."