VSN Features/Benefits Reduction and Elimination Post Abound Launch [Call to Action]

[Ken555]

View attachment 63744

What koolaid am *I* drinking?


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[Ken555]

I am starting to think there are a couple potential problems with folks who think SOs might be better. Mainly it is a basic lack of knowledge on how to maximize Abound points. There is definitely a learning curve to any new system. I think where the advantage to Vistana over Abound comes in is when you book your home resort due to the skim. OTOH, in years where you do not want to use your home resort, electing Abound points to go somewhere else is simple, easy and effective if you understand the Abound system.

No skim in VSN. And once again, I’ve not had issues reserving what I needed using StarOptions for 15 years. With Abound I wouldn’t be able to get the same number of nights at the same resorts. What knowledge about how to maximum Abound points am I misunderstanding?


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[rickandcindy23]

You own so much. What do you personally use for your own enjoyment?

We only use five weeks every single year: Hono Koa oceanfront, 3 weeks (40 feet to the water from our lanai), and we own 2 weeks at Westin, which we just bought and will use every year and rent the studio to pay the fees.

I mostly use weeks for exchange purposes. Thinking of enrolling our resale Shadow Ridge into Abound or DC or whatever it's called.

 

[Tfziggs]

I am starting to think there are a couple potential problems with folks who think SOs might be better. Mainly it is a basic lack of knowledge on how to maximize Abound points. There is definitely a learning curve to any new system. I think where the advantage to Vistana over Abound comes in is when you book your home resort due to the skim. OTOH, in years where you do not want to use your home resort, electing Abound points to go somewhere else is simple, easy and effective if you understand the Abound system.

I have no doubt electing club points will be simple and easy. Effective? For my ownership, for where and when we want to travel SO are much more effective. We can get more for less using SO than w/ Abound Club Points (do we have an acronym for these yet? ACPs? CPs?).

Here is my analysis based on our ownership (2 WKV resale weeks; one platinum, one gold). We are a family of 5 so require a 2 bedroom:

	SOs	Abound Club Pnts
WKV Platinum 2 bdr	148,100​	4,050
WKV Gold 2 bdr	81,000​	2,850
Total	229,100​	6,900

SO vs Abound Club Pnts (2 Bedroom / Full Week)	SOs required	% of total SOs	Abound Pnts required	% of total Abound Club Points
WLR (Cancun) January	81,000​	35%​	5,050	73%​
WKV (Scottsdale)March	148,100​	65%​	5,400	78%​
WDW (Palm Springs) March	148,100​	65%​	4,725	68%​
WKORV (Maui) Anytime of year	148,100 - 176,700	65% - 77%	6,075 - 11,475​	88% - 166%

In the case of Lagunamar the difference is extreme – it takes only take 35% of my annual SOs to book at 2 bdr in Jan vs. 73% of my Abound club points. For Palm Springs it is much closer 65% vs 68%, but SO still has the edge. For those that own high value week(s), like Maui, this analysis will obviously be much different. But for our ownership, I don’t see much value in Abound.

Maybe there are MVC resorts that have sweet spots in the DC point chart (like Lagunamar in Jan w/ SO) but in my admittedly quick scan through I haven’t seen many that interest me; I would like to hear from Marriott owners if/where these sweet spots exist.

 

[EnglishmanAbroad]

Isn't it as simple (OK I know nothing is simple where all this is concerned!) as doing what is the best for your own circumstances and using the systems/methods available to you to your advantage?

As and EnglishmanAbroad who is about to become and EnglishmanAtHome (and no I'm not Ozzy Osbourne although I do share his concerns), if I had no luck in the rental market (always been a bit hit and miss and a bit of a hassle TBH) I had planned on banking and pooling our 192,100 annual SO (Maui and Lagunamar) to have a 'mega' vacation in Maui every 3 years (obviously very dependent upon availability at the 8 month mark for banked SO). Naturally I'll have to scale this back to every 2y with the new banking 'rules' or alternatively dip my toe in the Abound market as it does open up some European options.

All a moot point at the moment as I've already rented out 2023 so I have quite a while to see how it all shakes out.

 

[Eric B]

It wouldn't have been. You can get 13 nights in Cancun Gold Plus season 1BR (which includes January) for 81,000 StarOptions. For a 2BR, you can only get seven nights.

You can get seven nights in a 2BR in low season with 81K or you can get 13 nights in a 2BR low season with 81K.

At Lagunamar and Cancun a 2 BR high season is 148,100 SOs and a 2 BR low season is 81K. I can't get the math to work for these using the SO charts.

 

[timsi]

I understand that everyone has their biases, but it is irritating to see comments in the Vistana forum trying to explain us we are not losing anything with Abound, we are actually gaining, like we can't read a points chart (or two).

With 81,000 points from Orlando you can book 1 BR spring break at Lagunamar
The same VOI from Orlando converts to 2825 Abound points but to book 1BR spring break at Lagunamar you need 3900 Abound points. If you want president's week, it costs 5000 Abound points. Not very complicated folks.

 

[kozykritter]

Yes, but this is the Vistana forum…


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Every user has the right to engage with every forum. Just ask DeniseM about that.

 

[EnglishmanAbroad]

At Lagunamar and Cancun a 2 BR high season is 148,100 SOs and a 2 BR low season is 81K. I can't get the math to work for these using the SO charts.

13 nights is 1BR, low season for ~81,000 (Fri-Thu or Sat-Fri)

 

[Eric B]

I understand that everyone has their biases, but it is irritating to see comments in the Vistana forum trying to explain us we are not losing anything with Abound, we are actually gaining, like we can't read a points chart (or two).

With 81,000 points from Orlando you can book 1 BR spring break at Lagunamar
The same VOI from Orlando converts to 2825 Abound points but to book 1BR spring break at Lagunamar you need 3900 Abound points. If you want president's week, it costs 5000 Abound points. Not very complicated folks.

Totally agree - it's not all that complicated. To really benefit from Abound being available to VSN members, those members need to be cognizant of where they want to go and what the exchange rates are. There is a possibility that Marriott will consciously jigger the mix of what goes to Abound and what goes to VSN in order to screw over the group of folks using VSN or the group of folks using Abound. I'm happy to hear that the experiences the Marriott folks have had with the interaction between the weeks inventory, the DC inventory and availability in II show they haven't done this historically despite having the ability to screw over those constituencies in the past (which is no guarantee of future performance, of course). If I have the good fortune of getting the additional Abound eligibility I will consider myself fortunate as a mandator resale Vistana owner and I will do the math to figure out how to most efficiently or effectively use my ownerships to get me where I want to go in a particular year. I might also pick up enough Aventuras points to get me to the next tier of ownership if that's how things work out, which would be to Marriott's benefit. I find it a bit hard to believe that they would make the business decision that they will be better off screwing over any particular group of owners in any case as that would probably affect their longer term prospects despite anything a salesman tells me at an update focused on the short term benefit to him (not me or the corporation) of making a sale and a commission. YMMV.

 

[timsi]

I'm happy to hear that the experiences the Marriott folks have had with the interaction between the weeks inventory, the DC inventory and availability in II show they haven't done this historically despite having the ability to screw over those constituencies in the past (which is no guarantee of future performance, of course).

MVC and the legacy owners was very different story because there were only 2 buckets. Even if Marriott did tilt the inventory a little bit, there were just not enough buckets to matter. Besides, If a good week was sold out in 5 minutes or 3, how would you know, especially tuggers that are really on the ball and may have gotten what they wanted? In our case though, VSN is already fragmented and only starts at 8 months while the other buckets at 12.

 

[pchung6]

Every user has the right to engage with every forum. Just ask DeniseM about that.

I think most Vistana owners here would be more appreciated if Marriott people can share in Vistana board how they maximize their points and their criteria they elect their legacy weeks into points. Vistana owners can read the point chart. We know what we can do with SOs points and how many points we will get in Abound. No need to come here and educate Vistana owners we will lose nothing or we will get something. Just my thought.

 

[wjarcher]

In the timeshare world, nothing is guaranteed unless you buy a fixed week fixed unit deed. Any exchange system (no matter whether it is via an exchange company or like VSN or destination points) is subject to availability and rule changes. I own both Vistana and Marriott. Losing the opportunity of using SVV staroptions for Maui sucks (I still don't see the VSN inventory will be depleted soon after this change though), but you will find good opportunities to use the destination clubs points too if you do your research,

To give an example, a 2BR platinum Vistana Villages Bella converts to 2825 points and Maui ocean club 1BR Island view only needs 2525 points for quite a few weeks in the year, can be your ways of exchanging into Maui.

 

[Moparman42]

Yes, but this is the Vistana forum…


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In defense of the VSN fanatics.. Some of us purchased Vistana (starwood) because that is where we wanted to go, if I wanted to stay at a Marriott, I would have purchased there. Of course, that being said, most of the benefits that are going away don't really affect me because I use my KORV to go to KORV. However, the dues changing DOES affect me since I never banked my options or rented out my unit. So I will be paying more for features I don't plan on using.

 

[wjarcher]

In defense of the VSN fanatics.. Some of us purchased Vistana (starwood) because that is where we wanted to go, if I wanted to stay at a Marriott, I would have purchased there. Of course, that being said, most of the benefits that are going away don't really affect me because I use my KORV to go to KORV. However, the dues changing DOES affect me since I never banked my options or rented out my unit. So I will be paying more for features I don't plan on using.

You can opt out of the program to keep paying the VSN fees.

 

[pchung6]

You can opt out of the program to keep paying the VSN fees.

If you opt out, can you join later? When do I have to make decision?

 

[Moparman42]

Also, I looked through the FAQ's and the Abound info, and don't see how to actually opt out at this point.. did anybody see what I missed?

 

[wjarcher]

If you opt out, can you join later? When do I have to make decision?

faq does not answer that yet. Hopefully we can find out after the program launches. Opting out is new to Marriott (the destination club is using opt-in since it was launched in 2010: you have to go through enrollment of at least one eligible week to get into the club points program).

 

[Ken555]

Every user has the right to engage with every forum. Just ask DeniseM about that.

That’s not the point and I’m fairly sure you know that. Of course everyone is welcome to post their thoughts. What is irritating is that this is the Vistana forum and we are being lectured to by Marriott fanatics about how great the new product is when that makes absolutely no sense to many of us, and yet they keep doing it over and over and over…


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[kozykritter]

In defense of the VSN fanatics.. Some of us purchased Vistana (starwood) because that is where we wanted to go, if I wanted to stay at a Marriott, I would have purchased there. Of course, that being said, most of the benefits that are going away don't really affect me because I use my KORV to go to KORV. However, the dues changing DOES affect me since I never banked my options or rented out my unit. So I will be paying more for features I don't plan on using.

Nobody needs defending. Nothing wrong with loving your timeshare program and enjoying using it.

 

[kozykritter]

Also, I looked through the FAQ's and the Abound info, and don't see how to actually opt out at this point.. did anybody see what I missed?

They might have been intentionally vague in their FAQ on who these mentioned "certain owners" are that can opt out of Abound and the combined fee. Given their other odd wording around eligibility for resales("opportunity to/will be able to elect CP"), it might be mandatory resales owners that choose to effectively "opt out" by not paying an enrollment fee or making an additional purchase to access Abound (if that is required in the end), making them an opt out of the combined fees as well. Instead of being straightforward with the wording, they may have kept it nebulous so that they can then use salespeople to exploit the doubts that come from not knowing and drive sales from those owners before Abound launches. That has been their mode of operation since the soft launch. This is just one possibility that could fit into the wording.

 

[wjarcher]

From exchange value perspective, WKV is the one resort that is significantly devalued from VSN to Abound. A Marriott Ocean Club 2 BR Garden view converts to 4725 points; 1BR Garden view converts to 3100 points. Lagunamar Platinum+ converts similar points (a little higher) compared with MOC 2BR. Even SVV 2BR (converts to 2800 points) is comparable to a 1BR in MOC. WKORV/N has the best value from VSN to Abound.

 

[Ken555]

Nobody needs defending. Nothing wrong with loving your timeshare program and enjoying using it.

Absolutely. Still, it would be nice to have a bit more objectivity.

Is there any question that Marriott just nerfed VSN? Other than the possible exception of WKORV OF, which other VSN week can reserve the same or more at the same resort as before Abound?

Just because Abound is new doesn’t mean it’s good. Just because Marriott didn’t do the worst to owners in the past doesn’t mean they will do the same to VSN owners now. There have been so many reported lies and incorrect statements from Marriott sales as reported here that how can we believe anything other than the written policies of the program? Their marketing may be slick but that doesn’t mean we should just believe until we see the documents, and what we have so far is incomplete (at least, that’s my impression based on the hundreds of posts on TUG and my quick scan of it).

It does seem we have a consensus that WKV 2-bed Plat Plus will be devalued in Abound and others have reported similar issues with SVV and WLR (from what I recall), and I’m sure there are more. I haven’t analyzed the purported new chart as listed here carefully but it shouldn’t be that difficult to figure out which resorts are able to get the same exchange in Abound as in VSN and those which can’t.

I bought Starwood for a reason. I didn’t like everything about Marriott, even though that was what I thought I would be at first. While I visit Marriott resorts and likely will again, I see no reason to own at any at this time. Perhaps this will change. Still, I’m focused on how best to use my ownership so that I can continue with the wonderful stays I’ve had for 15 years. From what I can tell thus far, I can’t get even close if I use the same week in Abound.

I’m not drinking the koolaid. On the contrary, I’m calling a spade a spade. And I’m not paying 7% while doing so.


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[timsi]

You can opt out of the program to keep paying the VSN fees.

Apparently not every Vistana owner can opt out so who are those that can? For those who can opt out, will the banking still be 2 years and not 1? Will we retain all the other features? Will the inventory in VSN going to be as before?

Just because they say that some can opt out it does not mean they will continue to enjoy what they have now, this is another smoke screen.

 

[timsi]

That’s not the point and I’m fairly sure you know that. Of course everyone is welcome to post their thoughts. What is irritating is that this is the Vistana forum and we are being lectured to by Marriott fanatics about how great the new product is when that makes absolutely no sense to many of us, and yet they keep doing it over and over and over…


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Their message has changed from Marriott is great and fair to just suck it up.