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Koala warns Wyndham is cancelling reservations based on Wyndham's "updated policy" Anyone know what's up?

Certainly any definition is going to be open to interpretation. Is five rentals a commercial enterprise, or is just one enough? A "permitted user" looks to just be the owner of their family. Can your extended family or friends use your unit on a GC?

Straight from the membership directory:

1651085529061.png


Regarding anyone who attempts to argue that this statement is too vague - straight from a court ruling regarding this assertion. The judge in the Sirmon v. Wyndham lawsuit thought the membership directory had plenty of "oomph."

"Plaintiffs initially argue that the disclaimer should be discredited because it is inconspicuously buried within the membership directories. The disclaimer was perhaps not as openly visible as written statements that other courts have found sufficiently clear to trigger the statute of limitations. ... However, while the disclaimer in the membership directories was arguably more discrete than written statements discussed in other cases, the Court is unconvinced that this fact alone renders it invalid."
 
Certainly any definition is going to be open to interpretation. Is five rentals a commercial enterprise, or is just one enough? A "permitted user" looks to just be the owner of their family. Can your extended family or friends use your unit on a GC?
I think there are two things at play in the definition posted above. The first is "permitted users," a new (to me) term that applies only to points protection. It actually seems that the inclusion and definition of commercial use is redundant/unnecessary in the points protection terms, because it already states that points protection is only available when the reservation is an owner or permitted user.

Then there's the definition of commercial use, which while redundant where it appears in the terms for points protection, is also mentioned (though not defined) in the directory. According to the directory, ownership is not to be used for commercial purposes.

But there's a whole middle area that's not restricted. There should be no issue sending your friends or extended family or your neighbor or whoever on a GC as long as it doesn't meet the commercial use definition. You apparently can't use points protection on those reservations, though. And if you find them online, that sounds like it falls under their definition of commercial use.
 
the disclaimer should be discredited because it is inconspicuously buried within the membership directories........the Court is unconvinced that this fact alone renders it invalid."
Given the argument that this was because the paragraph was buried, I'd remain unconvinced, as well. Lousy attorney to use the argument they used. They should have used the lack of definition in regard to 'commercial renting' or an argument related to lack of consistency on the part of Wyndham. Both arguments may have failed, but, the argument the plaintiff used was destined for failure.

I'm not an attorney, I just have an opinion based on the belief that I have just a little bit of common sense.
 
I think there are two things at play in the definition posted above. The first is "permitted users," a new (to me) term that applies only to points protection. It actually seems that the inclusion and definition of commercial use is redundant/unnecessary in the points protection terms, because it already states that points protection is only available when the reservation is an owner or permitted user.

The term Permitted Users does not only apply to Points Protection - it's a contractually defined legal term by Wyndham that is used repeatedly in the founding trust documents and contracts. Embedded in the Terms of Use is reference to the applicable founding trust documents that contain the legal definitions of various terms like this. Here's the definition of Permitted Users straight from the CWA Public Offering Statement for ease of reference (since I'm a CWA developer owner I was provided electronic copies of the founding trust documentation):

1651088758208.png


Any word or phrase used whereby the first letters are capitalized is also defined in the public offering statement as well. It's all there for anyone who has interest in such things. I am happy to create a new post and provide screenshots of the complete glossary of terms if it would be useful to have this as a point of reference - we can make it a sticky thread if need be.
 
Here's the definition of Permitted Users straight from the CWA Public Offering Statement for ease of reference
Well, then that's very interesting because the definitions are significantly different.

I also don't understand how the CWA public offering statement applies to non-CWA owners. Is there a similar document that applies to select ownerships? The only thing I have as a resale owner to refer back to are my deeds and the Fairshare Trust documents, and it's not defined in the Fairshare Trust agreement.
 
Well, then that's very interesting because the definitions are significantly different.

I also don't understand how the CWA public offering statement applies to non-CWA owners. Is there a similar document that applies to select ownerships? The only thing I have as a resale owner to refer back to are my deeds and the Fairshare Trust documents, and it's not defined in the Fairshare Trust agreement.

There's a similar set of documents released to CWS developer purchases - I just don't have access to that version since I've only purchased CWA developer points. To the best of my current understanding, there's a Club Declaration for all ownership types that is common. Below are the excerpts from my CWA contract:

1651092036134.png


1651092131220.png
 
It still doesn't answer why the definitions for Permitted User from the CWA documents and in the terms for points protection comprise different groups of people.
 
It still doesn't answer why the definitions for Permitted User from the CWA documents and in the terms for points protection comprise different groups of people.

Sure it does - that's why I provided the Definitions screenshot - which clearly states "or unless the context otherwise requires" which means specific to the Points Protection verbiage - the definition of "Permitted Users" has been tailored specific to that subsection - and the Definitions founding trust document allows for this type of variation. This is commonly used contractual verbiage in my experience. I've dealt with contract reviews as part of my job for many years now - so I suppose I'm making certain assumptions in my posts that may not be obvious to others in this respect. My apologies if this is the case.
 
Sure it does - that's why I provided the Definitions screenshot - which clearly states "or unless the context otherwise requires" which means specific to the Points Protection verbiage - the definition of "Permitted Users" has been tailored specific to that subsection - and the Definitions founding trust document allows for this type of variation. This is commonly used contractual verbiage in my experience. I've dealt with contract reviews as part of my job for many years now - so I suppose I'm making certain assumptions in my posts that may not be obvious to others in this respect. My apologies if this is the case.
It doesn't explain to me why they'd use the term "Permitted users" at all in the definition they use for points protection since it is so different from the definition in the CWA documents. Why not simply say "immediate family" (or better yet, "immediate relative" which is defined in multiple locations in the directory) since it appears that's what is meant for points protection? Whereas the CWA definition appears to me to be in practice synonymous with "owner," but considering situations where an account is owned by a trust or LLC, for example, and the individuals with access to the account in those situations would be "Permitted Users" (with rights to use the points within the account to include booking online or by the phone, etc., just as a direct owner would). So I still don't understand why Wyndham would designate a completely different group of people -- any immediate family member of an owner -- as "Permitted users" in the context of points protection. Was the person writing these terms trying to paraphrase the CWA definition of "Permitted users" and did so incorrectly? Or did they intend to include family members who are not permitted users under the CWA definition (in which case, again, why use the term at all)?
 
It doesn't explain to me why they'd use the term "Permitted users" at all in the definition they use for points protection since it is so different from the definition in the CWA documents. Why not simply say "immediate family" (or better yet, "immediate relative" which is defined in multiple locations in the directory) since it appears that's what is meant for points protection? Whereas the CWA definition appears to me to be in practice synonymous with "owner," but considering situations where an account is owned by a trust or LLC, for example, and the individuals with access to the account in those situations would be "Permitted Users" (with rights to use the points within the account to include booking online or by the phone, etc., just as a direct owner would). So I still don't understand why Wyndham would designate a completely different group of people -- any immediate family member of an owner -- as "Permitted users" in the context of points protection. Was the person writing these terms trying to paraphrase the CWA definition of "Permitted users" and did so incorrectly? Or did they intend to include family members who are not permitted users under the CWA definition (in which case, again, why use the term at all)?

It’s not really any different - the definition provided in the founding trust documents essentially equates to contractual owners as Permitted Users. The variance for the Points Protection broadens this a bit is all.

In my experience its contractual best practice to use the predefined terms stemming from the master agreement, and to then alter the contextual terms in the subsection according to the Definitions section provided in the master agreement. These types of terms should always tie back to the definitions provided in the master agreement. This is how contracts work in my experience.

This best practice gives Wyndham the ability to easily eliminate the custom context currently defined as “immediate family” at any point in time, and to return to the definition as defined in the master agreement - without having to undergo another legal review process. If this occurred - it would default back to only the contractual owners. Not saying this is going to occur - just providing an example.


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Doesn't seem too fuzzy to me, at least the definition isn't fuzzy. Their treatment of commercial use has certainly been inconsistent and fuzzy over time.

Honestly the more I process the whole curbing of owner based rental activity focus on Wyndham’s part - the more it feels to me that Wyndham was happy to allow for a subset of owner commercial use for a long time - until something better came along to displace this behavior. Wyndham has likely found something better. It’s likely a combination of corporate rentals (direct by Wyndham) and something that in my view remains to be seen (collecting and retaining resale inventory for another purpose).


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Can't believe a handful of people on here... the same handful of Mega Renter Sympathizers® are still trying to argue the pro side of the commercial use issue.

One word that comes to mind is obtuse... it really is at this point.

If anyone wants to know who to blame for deprecation of "rights", this is the crowd
 
One word that comes to mind is obtuse... it really is at this point.

You really have a very sophisticated manner of making a point! It’s clear to me now, there’s simply no room for a difference of perspective. The other guy is simply…. Wrong! Well argued.
 
Straight from the membership directory:

View attachment 53163

Regarding anyone who attempts to argue that this statement is too vague - straight from a court ruling regarding this assertion. The judge in the Sirmon v. Wyndham lawsuit thought the membership directory had plenty of "oomph."

"Plaintiffs initially argue that the disclaimer should be discredited because it is inconspicuously buried within the membership directories. The disclaimer was perhaps not as openly visible as written statements that other courts have found sufficiently clear to trigger the statute of limitations. ... However, while the disclaimer in the membership directories was arguably more discrete than written statements discussed in other cases, the Court is unconvinced that this fact alone renders it invalid."

if this was as clear cut as you seem to think and if Wyndhan wanted to enforce it, they would have They didnt

What you posted still doesn't define the term "commercial purposes" and while this court wouldnt find that this fact (the disclaimer is inconspicuously buried in the membership directory), renders it invalid. The court left open the possibility that other facts might

The case you cited was an owner vs Wyndham. I think most if not all of the relevant cases have been owners suing Wyndham, because of something Wyndham has done,, not wyndham suing owners. And I think there is a reason for that

I was caught in the web August 2016 suspensions. (which had nothing to do with renting), In our first conversation. The Wyndham attorney asked me if I knew why they suspended my account. I responded..... "Dont you know? Shouldnt that be my question for you?" I then told him I wouldnt be playing any games, and answered his questions. The reason they did what they did was because I had more points in reservations and in the accounts than my ownership would seem to support. He told me I was correct and asked how that was possible..... So I told him. I was at a disadvantage because my points manager managed my accounts. but I told him that I used the Credit Pool, to strip the points. My points manager made the reservations, rented them and then I sold the underlying contracts. I also told him that their system was faulty and I had heard that it was possible to cancel reservations and get the points back, but the next day the reservation would reappear. I didnt know whether that had happened in my accounts (my points manager denied it) but I was happy to come to Orlando to work it out. So I went to Orlando thinking we would identify the number of excess points I had and then decide what to do about it. At the end of the meeting we discussed different ways to handle the situation. Could I pay for the excess points Or would they just take them back. We did not decide on the number of points in question. The meeting ended with this unresolved but with another meeting scheduled. That meeting never happened. In a phone call they made me an offer..... Sign everything back to them and in return they wouldnt sue me

So Wyndham threatened to sue me but when I said bring it on, they wouldnt. It was then that I realized that they didnt want the excess points back, they wanted me gone. And when I suggested that their next communication should be through my attorney; They ignored that and made me a cash offer. Why is that? If they had the rules on their side and the back up of previous court decisions and their deep pockets vs mine (not so deep) why did they propose a settlement, instead of just shutting me down?

Wyndham chose not enforce the commercial use clause . But it was pretty clear, that as much as they hated what we were doing; and already had us suspended. they didnt have the confidence to take legal action, based on this clause or any other.

I suspect they weren't as sure of the enforceability of the commercial use clause as you seem to be

What Wyndham has done since they first decided they didnt like large scale renting has been to tighten the rules and institute fees, in order to make renting less profitable and to "level the playing field" ie make it easier for the little guy to get the reservations they wanted

Here's the thing, as long as maintenance fees are less than hotel rates, VRBO and AirB&B, there will be folks like me that will play the arbitrage game.
 
One more thing. While the group of large scale renters, that were active before my time with Wyndham, may have believed that renting was allowed and even encouraged by Wyndham, None of us that grew our rental "businesses" after 2010 believed that. We all knew of the commercial use clause and we all knew that Wyndham didnt like renting, and could enforce it at any time. And we all knew to have a "plan B" to implement when the time came. What I was doing was unsustainable, and I knew it. When I was asked about my exit plan, I didnt have one, except to say...Im old, Im gonna die owning this stuff and it will someone elses problem then

Can't believe a handful of people on here... the same handful of Mega Renter Sympathizers® are still trying to argue the pro side of the commercial use issue.

One word that comes to mind is obtuse... it really is at this point.

If anyone wants to know who to blame for deprecation of "rights", this is the crowd

No one is making the argument (obtusely or acutely) that there is a "pro side" to the commercial use clause. any more than I argue that going 80mph in a 70 zone is permitted. But I do it anyway....because the authorities have chosen not to enforce the rule
 
You really have a very sophisticated manner of making a point! It’s clear to me now, there’s simply no room for a difference of perspective. The other guy is simply…. Wrong! Well argued.

If sledgehammers are sophisticated, I agree.;)
 
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Ron just demonstrated why so many people thought highly of him for his willingness to help those trying to learn and his knowledge of the system. There were times that not everyone agreed with him on some points but time usually proved he knew what he was talking about. No, not every one was or is a fan of his but I doubt he lost any sleep over that.

Ron had realistic expectations and didn't cry it's not fair or the salespeople told us. Not even when it didn't work out that he could continue to rent out the many New Orleans fixed weeks he owned. Those weeks weren't part of what he did with the other deeds/contracted he owned and stripped. He's joked about his plan but none the less it was a plan. When he became "no longer an owner" he moved on to his next plan with his boat.

What some of you are overlooking is Wyndham doesn't have to win in court. They have the power to keep tightening things until some owners get their heads on straight and realize they aren't going to be able to continue on like they have in the past. Learning to adapt was always an option in the past but a smart person wouldn't count on it this time and would have an exit or downsize plan. The indications are there that Wyndham will put some real teeth into what they do this time. Ron saw the handwriting on the wall and was proactive. There were other owners who were vehement in their assertations that Wyndham couldn't or wouldn't do what they did. I've wondered how much money those months of denial cost them.
 
The definition is included within the underlying trust documents. It’s also replicated in the T&Cs for points protection, which is the easiest place to screenshot from:

13e98610779541690d2aecc7a91b8f4d.jpg



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Welp, based on this FB post it looks like Wyndham is serious about the definition of Commercial Use including any web advertising at all, period, even for one rental:
I just received a letter from James B saying they have identified my account as being used for commercial use. If I have anything else set- up, I need to cancel them now. This was my first warning for the offense. What the hell (sorry). How do I address this? I had a reservation PCB for the grandkids but they ended up going to Pensacola. I found someone who had reserved the wrong dates for her spring break and we got together. I go on this sight and see offers everyday. I've even had sales people tell me how to sell points or reservations so they could sell more.


Looking at this person's posting history in the various FB groups, it does really look like this was their one and only rental. They could have canceled, though - they started looking for a renter outside of the 15-day window. I don't know if that's a factor in Wyndham's calculation or not, but it is instructional for anyone who thinks they might want to find a taker for a reservation they can't use but could still cancel.

Edit: Interestingly, they had posted the rental in the only (I think) of the Wyndham FB groups that's public rather than private. It doesn't mean that Wyndham doesn't have people in the other groups watching, but they wouldn't even had had to be a group member to see this particular rental.
 
without knowing that person's history its hard to judge. Did she have 35 guest certs for 30 different family members and only one rental? My guess is,it is guest cert usage and not an actual rental posting that triggered that person's letter for suspected violations.
 
without knowing that person's history its hard to judge. Did she have 35 guest certs for 30 different family members and only one rental? My guess is,it is guest cert usage and not an actual rental posting that triggered that person's letter for suspected violations.
It seems interesting that she posted that single rental in February for an April booking, and less than a month later she gets the letter. It falls within the definition. On April 10 she asked the definition of "guest certificate" so I'm going to guess that she was not that conversant with them to have used 35 of them.

EDIT: And I see you got your answer - she's used 1.
 
It was previously discussed that many sites like Koala are required to divulge to Wyndham who the owner is. It's part of their contract with Travel and Leisure which Wyndham now owns.

We all know that Big Brother is watching on TUG, Facebook, eBay, etc. It remains to be seen what will come of that.
 
It seems interesting that she posted that single rental in February for an April booking, and less than a month later she gets the letter. It falls within the definition. On April 10 she asked the definition of "guest certificate" so I'm going to guess that she was not that conversant with them to have used 35 of them.

EDIT: And I see you got your answer - she's used 1.
She says this is the only one she used in 6 years. I can't imagine that wyndham will be going after everyone who rents out one unit over several years.
 
It was previously discussed that many sites like Koala are required to divulge to Wyndham who the owner is. It's part of their contract with Travel and Leisure which Wyndham now owns.

We all know that Big Brother is watching on TUG, Facebook, eBay, etc. It remains to be seen what will come of that.
I thought that was AirBnB or Vrbo? I can't remember which one. I don't recall Koala being previously mentioned as I don't think Koala gets inventory from Wyndham nor do they advertise through T&L.
 
I thought that was AirBnB or Vrbo? I can't remember which one. I don't recall Koala being previously mentioned as I don't think Koala gets inventory from Wyndham nor do they advertise through T&L.

Both maybe. I remember there was a list of sites mentioned. I thought Koala was on it but it might not have been.

Koala has been so proactive in handling the issue that may be what led me to think it was on the list.
 
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