Koala warns Wyndham is cancelling reservations based on Wyndham's "updated policy" Anyone know what's up?

[Sandy VDH]

1. Exchange Plusing a couple of Colonies weeks into WorldMark, resulting in 16K WM Credits, 2 HKs, and 2 GCs for a cost lower than my 16K account's dues, then

Can you explain what this entails. In HICV I can take RCI deposits and turn them into HICV points. So I am curious as to what you did to get other weeks into WM Credits.

 

[Eric B]

Can you explain what this entails. In HICV I can take RCI deposits and turn them into HICV points. So I am curious as to what you did to get other weeks into WM Credits.

In WorldMark, you can convert up to 4 weeks per calendar year into credits, HKs and GCs. A 2 BR red week gets you 8,000 credits and each week gets you one HK and one GC. It costs $129 to do this. Any week that can be deposited into RCI or II can be used. There are two different forms that were available on the old website, but I can't find them on the new website (what a joy that is).

For me, depositing both sides of a 4 BR week at The Colonies was worth the 16K, 2 HKs, and 2 GCs for a cost of the MF ($879 last time I did it) and $258 = $1,137 as compared to annual dues of $1,433.25 for 16K, 1 HK, and 2 GCs. Winds up being an efficient way to generate WM credits and that was a decent II trader. I wound up selling my week there as I've got too many other weeks, but may pick up another one in the future as things evolve.

 

[rickandcindy23]

Cindy, where did you just just buy mandatory at?

We bought WKORV-Oceanfront Center, 2 bed l/o X 2. The perfect weeks were already reserved for next year. We bought through Syed Sarmad at advantagevacation.com Passed ROFR within 48 hours after our offer was accepted.

 

[Eric B]

Where are you staying?

I always feel kind of sorry for the people who own at Manhattan Club. I can stay there so much cheaper than they stay in their own property. That makes exchanges kind of a hustle, too. I also think of that when I stay at any Disney property via exchange. We are here now. 105,000 Wyndham points + exchange and $190 fee. It's my best hustle. My next best hustle is Maui Westins with my SBP and SDO weeks. Two bedrooms for a one bedroom price + upgrade. I didn't even pay big bucks for those upgrades, just a free timeshare + exchange fee and $59 upgrade fee.

I feel like such a hustler. You don't want to see this 67-year-old lady doing the hustle dance.

Sorry, just realized I didn’t answer the first question — we’re at the Hilton Club this time. Picked up a resale W 57th for future trips, we tried the Residences & the Quin as well but couldn’t find a resale for a decent price at those.

Haven’t tried Midtown 45 yet, but the Hilton locations are a bit nicer.

 

[WManning]

Sorry, just realized I didn’t answer the first question — we’re at the Hilton Club this time. Picked up a resale W 57th for future trips, we tried the Residences & the Quin as well but couldn’t find a resale for a decent price at those.

Haven’t tried Midtown 45 yet, but the Hilton locations are a bit nicer.

Midtown very good location, staff very helpful but sales can be very aggressive. Short walk to Central park.

 

[Eric B]

Midtown very good location, staff very helpful but sales can be very aggressive. Short walk to Central park.

Giving it a try later this year, with an open mind.

 

[LAYGO]

Likely because IT simply added a date qualifier to the code that is running to effect this change - such that any reservations made prior to 4/14/2022 won't be cancelled automatically after 48 hours with the new process. That's what I would do if I were going to update the code in question. Simple to do - and it doesn't change the core logic at all - it simply adds an if/then "don't run on any objects dated older than 4/14/2022" statement.

Sounds like they're doing some wild west coding on production vs running the code again prod data in a stage environment to understand the impact.

 

[Sugarcubesea]

We bought WKORV-Oceanfront Center, 2 bed l/o X 2. The perfect weeks were already reserved for next year. We bought through Syed Sarmad at advantagevacation.com Passed ROFR within 48 hours after our offer was accepted.

Cindy,

Congrats, that is so awesome...To know you will have oceanfront center every trip is so worth it

 

[rickandcindy23]

Cindy,

Congrats, that is so awesome...To know you will have oceanfront center every trip is so worth it

Amazingly, the fees are not much more than the fees on the Hono Koa oceanfront weeks that we own. Those fees are running about $2,350 per year in a 2 bedroom unit that is not a lockoff and not fancy, just a great view. Soleil Management is not doing a good job for owners, and owners are walking away. That is my guess as to why fees have skyrocketed each year.

I plan to rent the studio side each year on both units. The net amount will cover most of our fees on the entire lockoff.

 

[heathpack]

I don’t follow Wyndham, or really understand everything that’s being discussed in this thread.

It’s just so curious to me that many timeshare companies began with terms of use that were friendly to the owner and were/are used as sales tactics (for example, the ability to rent). Then later on, when the timeshare company decides to change the paradigm in an owner unfriendly way, *so* many owners defend/accept the change. “Works for me.” Or “They always told us they could change the rules.”

Yes “works for me” leads to them continuing to make owner-unfriendly changes *because the owners obviously don’t care* until one day they make the change that’s the dealbreaker for you and then you just give them back the thing you purchased and feel lucky to be done with it.

Or “they always told us they could change the rules” BUT they implied they wouldn’t, the rules are explained to owners and all the beneficial aspects of ownership are sold, hard. If the sales pitch included the truth- these are the rules but we’re going to change them in 5 years and charge you whatever we want for GC (for example), more people will think twice before purchasing, so of course we could never be transparent. We are hard selling you a crappy deal from the consumers point of view, and need to keep that on the down low. Of course the standard TUG answer is that they’re selling you future vacation time at your home resort which is true. But that is not what they pitch to buyers- they pitch all these flexible uses- renting, exchanging, GCs, flextime, owner discounts, converting to hotel points, etc- in order to induce folks to buy. And in the end, that flexibility is what people truly *are* buying in their minds and what they are being *sold* in the sales pitch. So restrictions on useage flexibility is not trivial, no matter what the signed contract states.

Anyway, this is just a general commentary on the curious consumer behavior. Timeshares are a questionable product that most of us here find ways to exploit into value. But why there’s so much defense of the timeshare companies is beyond me. And people continue to buy into a degraded product. So strange.

I’m not ready to get out of timeshares entirely- I have found a way to use them to travel less expensively than other ways I could travel. But still I find a lot of the behavior of timeshare companies troubling even when it doesn’t impact me directly (because they are all learning from each other).

Also- I’m not advocating tilting at windmills. Maybe some of the acceptance I see with the negative changes for owners is just a lack of willingness to put much energy into a pointless endeavor like affecting change in a timeshare system. I can see not bothering with calling or emailing or writing or trying to organize a class action lawsuit. But just accepting the changes here in conversation on a user site is curious to me- why folks are passive about changes that are against their own interests.

 

[paxsarah]

Or “they always told us they could change the rules” BUT they implied they wouldn’t, the rules are explained to owners and all the beneficial aspects of ownership are sold, hard.

Counterpoint: for those of us who purchased resale, they never implied anything, and we were not sold hard. I've never attended a Wyndham sales meeting. Everything I knew prior to purchase was from user forums (RIP Atozed) and reading the information in Wyndham's directory. I've seen Wyndham change the rules starting in my earliest days as an owner (the move to the current RCI portal and an early change to VIP levels occurred soon after I purchased), so when I say "they always told us they could change the rules" it's true, and my expectation has always been that if it reaches a point where timeshare ownership is no longer working for me (whether because my needs change or the rules change to a point I can't make it work for me), I'm out. Fortunately, resale ownership makes that decision easy, if and when the time comes.

I can see not bothering with calling or emailing or writing or trying to organize a class action lawsuit. But just accepting the changes here in conversation on a user site is curious to me- why folks are passive about changes that are against their own interests.

When I find a policy change particularly upsetting, I do actually write. I like a paper letter, since people so rarely take that step and it does get some attention. (I believe the last time I did that with Wyndham was when they replaced the points credit pool with the points deposit feature.) I don't harbor any illusions that a letter is going to change Wyndham's mind; however, I do consider it a more productive response than whatever I say here in conversation here on a user site. What is any contribution I make to the conversation going to do about a written Wyndham policy change? The things Wyndham does that get me most heated here on the forum is when the website/system is not even supporting what the written policy says, because that's a problem that should be fixed. (An example is when Wyndham changed the way resale points were treated for VIP owners, an unintended consequence led to the system shorting some non-VIPs a housekeeping credit - not following Wyndham's written policy on housekeeping calculation for non-VIP owners.) I feel like the most productive discussions here are the ones that troubleshoot problems such as this, and disseminating information about the way the program works in practice (including the fact that Wyndham can change the rules at any time) to help prospective, new, or uninformed owners understand how Wyndham actually works and not just what a salesperson says it does.

It's also worth noting that the "updated policy" that prompted this thread (though I know we've been through some other topics over the course of 9 pages) isn't really an updated policy at all - it's been in place since 2017 - but an update to the system that abruptly started enforcing it without notice, where previously the system had let things slide.

 

[heathpack]

@paxsarah yes I agree that most (many?) of us never bought direct, although most of us have been pitched at sales presentations. My point is that the owner “extras” are intentionally there to make ownership in the timeshare system sufficiently attractive to new owners. For most (many?) of owners, it’s the “extras” that make timeshare ownership even worth considering. For me personally, for example, I own a timeshare at Hyatt Highlands in in Carmel CA in a unit and week I like to use. That’s my fallback position (using what I own)- but without the ability to exchange it internally in Hyatt, or externally in II or as a private exchange, or to rent it, or let a friend use it- no way would I own, whether direct or resale. Because I’m not really interested in visiting Carmel CA every vacation every year. This is true for most people, which is why timeshare companies added all of these other options. It’s why there are exchange companies, and points overlays, and points systems. Without the extras, most people pass on the concept, it just too limiting. (Again, however, I’m not familiar enough with Wyndham to speak intelligently as to what the key selling points are purported to be, I’m just talking in general).

So- regardless of whether you bought from the developer or not, most (many?) of us are buying what the developer is selling in those sales pitches.

I agree that the ultimate vote is with your feet- when it stops working for you, sell and move on. I like the concept of writing a letter and in my business, I prefer a well thought out letter of complaint. My biggest point is that owners don’t care when the extras are removed until the extra they value is removed. And then they walk, and often lose whatever they’ve put into the system and we all act like that’s normal/ok. It’s a strangely passive consumer behavior.

 

[Sandy VDH]

There are two different forms that were available on the old website, but I can't find them on the new website (what a joy that is).

Are there restrictions on what type of unit can be converted? Like with HICV, they can't be in RCI Points.

Do you know what a 1 BR Red gets for WM Credits?

If you find the forms can you share?

 

[paxsarah]

I agree that the ultimate vote is with your feet- when it stops working for you, sell and move on. I like the concept of writing a letter and in my business, I prefer a well thought out letter of complaint. My biggest point is that owners don’t care when the extras are removed until the extra they value is removed. And then they walk, and often lose whatever they’ve put into the system and we all act like that’s normal/ok. It’s a strangely passive consumer behavior.

I guess the point I find is really not normal or ok is the point of retail purchase. (At least with Wyndham, which is the extent of my timeshare experience.) That's the point where the damage is done, and is the reason why I'll advise a new owner rescind if they're still within their window, whether or not they've asked if they should (I used to be polite and only advise it if it was part of the question). (And while there are many owners here who got into Wyndham VIP through retail purchases under more favorable terms in the past, I'm not sure anyone here would advise any new owner to seek VIP status under the current, non-grandfathered terms.) I can certainly sympathize with the frustration that owners who spent five or six figures on their ownership feel when policies change, but it should not be all that surprising that Wyndham has made these changes over time. I personally will be able to get around the issue of "losing whatever I've put into the system" by not having put much into the system, and I know the stakes are different for those who put in a lot. But maybe I'm a cynic and don't see the strangely passive part being the part where we understand who makes the rules and that we're not going to get the company to roll back a recent policy change, but instead we're going to have to learn how best to work with it (or get out if we're not going to be able to work with it).

 

[HitchHiker71]

I don’t follow Wyndham, or really understand everything that’s being discussed in this thread.

It’s just so curious to me that many timeshare companies began with terms of use that were friendly to the owner and were/are used as sales tactics (for example, the ability to rent). Then later on, when the timeshare company decides to change the paradigm in an owner unfriendly way, *so* many owners defend/accept the change. “Works for me.” Or “They always told us they could change the rules.”

AFAIK the Terms of Use never allowed for commercial use - at least not since 2012 best estimate (and many owners have said they have commercial use restrictions on contracts prior to 2012). That's the crux of much of the recent debate on this particular thread. If you or anyone else can show us where commercial use was explicitly permitted in the Terms of Use and/or contracts or founding documents, please do. I've never seen it - so at most it's been a perk of ownership. Perks are essentially loopholes subject to closure over time - and Wyndham has closed most of the loopholes used in the past by owners to engage in commercial business practices with their timeshare ownerships.

Yes “works for me” leads to them continuing to make owner-unfriendly changes *because the owners obviously don’t care* until one day they make the change that’s the dealbreaker for you and then you just give them back the thing you purchased and feel lucky to be done with it.

The blackout periods are currently the biggest limitation put in place that directly impact all owners. Legacy VIP owners aren't really impacted by any of the newer changes because all such VIPs have been grandfathered - including myself and I've only been a Wyndham VIP owner since mid-2018. Overall - the common thread is that Wyndham (and many other timeshare entities) are whittling away at the value of their VIP type program benefits. I think the volume of complaints in the FB groups proves that most owners aren't being quiet about their dissatisfaction with either Wyndham or some of the changes being made. Social media is chock full of unhappy owners by and large.

Or “they always told us they could change the rules” BUT they implied they wouldn’t, the rules are explained to owners and all the beneficial aspects of ownership are sold, hard. If the sales pitch included the truth- these are the rules but we’re going to change them in 5 years and charge you whatever we want for GC (for example), more people will think twice before purchasing, so of course we could never be transparent. We are hard selling you a crappy deal from the consumers point of view, and need to keep that on the down low. Of course the standard TUG answer is that they’re selling you future vacation time at your home resort which is true. But that is not what they pitch to buyers- they pitch all these flexible uses- renting, exchanging, GCs, flextime, owner discounts, converting to hotel points, etc- in order to induce folks to buy. And in the end, that flexibility is what people truly *are* buying in their minds and what they are being *sold* in the sales pitch. So restrictions on useage flexibility is not trivial, no matter what the signed contract states.

Anyway, this is just a general commentary on the curious consumer behavior. Timeshares are a questionable product that most of us here find ways to exploit into value. But why there’s so much defense of the timeshare companies is beyond me. And people continue to buy into a degraded product. So strange.

I don't see much defense of the timeshare entities per my commentary above on the social media forums. That said - a legal contract is just that. If anyone signs a legally binding document and agrees to the Terms of Use and conditions outlined in that legal document - then regardless of what anyone says - that's what truly matters. There was a recent case against Wyndham whereby a bunch of accusations, similar to those routinely made here on TUG and on other social media forums, were made that in the final analysis could not be substantiated (such as sales said this, sales said that, we're allowed to use our points however we want, etc.) and Wyndham won because those accusations were never proven in a court of law. Just one anecdotal example - but it's worth pointing out here.

I’m not ready to get out of timeshares entirely- I have found a way to use them to travel less expensively than other ways I could travel. But still I find a lot of the behavior of timeshare companies troubling even when it doesn’t impact me directly (because they are all learning from each other).

Also- I’m not advocating tilting at windmills. Maybe some of the acceptance I see with the negative changes for owners is just a lack of willingness to put much energy into a pointless endeavor like affecting change in a timeshare system. I can see not bothering with calling or emailing or writing or trying to organize a class action lawsuit. But just accepting the changes here in conversation on a user site is curious to me- why folks are passive about changes that are against their own interests.

Personally I think the entire concept of timeshare ownership will change significantly over the next 10-30 years. I agree the behavior of many of the timeshare companies is troubling - and I think we're going to enter into an era whereby much more emphasis will be placed upon the greater good (as opposed to individual rights) and if/when that happens I think these timeshare companies will undergo sea changes and many of the questionable tactics that are used to sell timeshare products will no longer be tolerable or possibly even legally permissible.

For my part - I continue to engage directly with Wyndham and certainly have never adopted a passive attitude about something I've chosen to own. I believe we don't have to resort to legal remedies as the only path toward promoting changes. Sometimes that becomes necessary in the final analysis- meanwhile I will continue to build relationships with Wyndham executives and other internal contacts and attempt to change the system from the inside out - based in no small part on the feedback generated from TUG and other Wyndham timeshare social media groups.

 

[troy12n]

RE: "changing the rules"... man some of you are really digging deep. This is about the most "fake news" claim being perpetuated by mega renters, mega renter sympathizers and mega renter apologists.

Commercial use is and always has been against the rules, and I applaud Wyndham for cracking down on this to return the ability for owners to use their timeshares instead of competing with people operating a business out of their basement instead of having a real job.

 

[rickandcindy23]

Timeshare has such a bad name. Just watch the Timeshare Exit company commercials. "Stuck with it," "Isn't what they said it would be," "fees go up annually," etc. There is a large percentage of people who believe that timeshares are a waste of money because of the commercials and because they know "someone" who "bought something" and don't ever use it. The Facebook page for TUG is filled with people who want advice because they were lied to or they never use what they bought.

For a big timeshare company to suddenly tell owners they cannot use what they bought the way they always did before, well that is not helping their product and their company, nor does it help timeshare as a product in general.

People in this thread are very defensive of the big Wyndham corporation. Wait until Wyndham takes something away that YOU enjoyed.

I am sure owners in other timeshare systems are watching this trend and wondering when it will carry over to them.

 

[Cyrus24]

Commercial use is and always has been against the rules,

I'm sure you know this and could put your finger right on it for posting. How has Wyndham defined Commercial Use? Please post the Wyndham definition. Not a megarenter but I have rented. Not rented enough to have ever purchased a GC.

 

[Jan M.]

I'm sure you know this and could put your finger right on it for posting. How has Wyndham defined Commercial Use? Please post the Wyndham definition. Not a megarenter but I have rented. Not rented enough to have ever purchased a GC.

Go back to post 97. Also read some of the posts that quoted it.

It's time for some owners to wake up and see that there's more coming. No I don't know what's coming but I'm absolutely convinced that there is. More so that I/we won't like it because I have some guesses about what that more will likely be.

I started warning people after the owners meeting in Austin in November, 2019 that Wyndham would be doing something to separate developer and resale points within a few years. Almost all of you either didn't believe it or just paid no attention. I fully expect the same thing to happen this time.

And once again we'll see wailing and gnashing of teeth when it does happen. Crying that it's not what you were told, isn't fair or Wyndham can't do that won't get you anywhere. And from what I've seen in their posts it just makes some people blame you for whatever Wyndham does.

A smart person would be making a plan.

For all the good it did me I had a plan in preparation of the separation points I was sure was coming but thought we had more time. I've pointed the finger of blame for the escalated timeframe for that on the megarenter with 65M points/4 accounts and 40 reservations at Glacier Canyon over Thanksgiving of 2020.

 

[Cyrus24]

The definition is included within the underlying trust documents. It’s also replicated in the T&Cs for points protection, which is the easiest place to screenshot from:

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

FUZZY definition, at best. Kind of like fake news being in the eye of some loser sitting in the parents basement making true/false decisions. Anxious to see Wyndham implement this consistently. To my knowledge, that has not been done. Until the renters facebook page is shutdown, commercial renting (by definition) is being allowed. Agree, Jan M, more is coming.

 

[Ty1on]

FUZZY definition, at best. Kind of like fake news being in the eye of some loser sitting in the parents basement making true/false decisions. Anxious to see Wyndham implement this consistently. To my knowledge, that has not been done. Until the renters facebook page is shutdown, commercial renting (by definition) is being allowed. Agree, Jan M, more is coming.

Doesn't seem too fuzzy to me, at least the definition isn't fuzzy. Their treatment of commercial use has certainly been inconsistent and fuzzy over time.

 

[paxsarah]

Doesn't seem too fuzzy to me, at least the definition isn't fuzzy. Their treatment of commercial use has certainly been inconsistent and fuzzy over time.

It's definitely the most specific definition I've seen to date, and the most restrictive. We've gone from the time when Wyndham first started sending commercial use letters and it seemed undefined, but also seemed obvious that it involved large volume, to this definition, which apparently states that if I suddenly couldn't travel within 15 days and hadn't bought points protection, by posting looking for a renter on FB to recoup my MF costs that would be commercial use.

As one of the "Wyndham makes the rules and can change them at any time" people, I guess at least they defined it? But unless you happen to rent by word of mouth at the PTA meeting, apparently any use of FB or TUG to find a renter can get you dinged for commercial use if Wyndham decides to pursue it. So be ready, indeed.

 

[Ty1on]

It's definitely the most specific definition I've seen to date, and the most restrictive. We've gone from the time when Wyndham first started sending commercial use letters and it seemed undefined, but also seemed obvious that it involved large volume, to this definition, which apparently states that if I suddenly couldn't travel within 15 days and hadn't bought points protection, by posting looking for a renter on FB to recoup my MF costs that would be commercial use.

As one of the "Wyndham makes the rules and can change them at any time" people, I guess at least they defined it? But unless you happen to rent by word of mouth at the PTA meeting, apparently any use of FB or TUG to find a renter can get you dinged for commercial use if Wyndham decides to pursue it. So be ready, indeed.

All that said, I have a suspicion that Wyndham is still really only interested in the volume renters, not the one-off, "Oh dear, I can't use these points this year, maybe I can rent them" type. I think reactions to anti-mega-renter actions they've taken have prompted them to understand that they need a concrete written policy.

 

[dioxide45]

Certainly any definition is going to be open to interpretation. Is five rentals a commercial enterprise, or is just one enough? A "permitted user" looks to just be the owner of their family. Can your extended family or friends use your unit on a GC?

 

[Cyrus24]

It's definitely the most specific definition I've seen to date, and the most restrictive. We've gone from the time when Wyndham first started sending commercial use letters and it seemed undefined, but also seemed obvious that it involved large volume, to this definition, which apparently states that if I suddenly couldn't travel within 15 days and hadn't bought points protection, by posting looking for a renter on FB to recoup my MF costs that would be commercial use.

As one of the "Wyndham makes the rules and can change them at any time" people, I guess at least they defined it? But unless you happen to rent by word of mouth at the PTA meeting, apparently any use of FB or TUG to find a renter can get you dinged for commercial use if Wyndham decides to pursue it. So be ready, indeed.

I had a lot of points to use in 2021 due to COVID and I did rent (at cost). Since then,
- I've whittled the balance down,
- I've added my adult kids to the account so as not to use GC's,
- I've unloaded the one and only resale contract I had.
I'm prepared. But that's me. Wyndham has a very bad habit of making rules and then not following them. At some point, it will become obvious that Wyndham is broadly enforcing the ''rule they've set forth, or renting will come right back. My bet is on the rule not being widely enforced. I'm on the fence regarding the 'rules'. I'm prepared but I do feel that owners should be allowed to use points as they see fit.