Koala warns Wyndham is cancelling reservations based on Wyndham's "updated policy" Anyone know what's up?

[bnoble]

I am just tired of everyone saying that a timeshare company can change the rules any time they want, as though it's in the best interests of owners, when in fact it is in the best interest of Wyndham Corporate.

Most timeshare companies can change the rules any time they want. It doesn't really matter who does/does not benefit from it. I also suspect most of us who say this believe that, at best, overall owner benefit is an afterthought. At best.

 

[HitchHiker71]

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Ok understand the above quote but also since we have to abide by the website shouldn't they give us one that works correctly. I am so friggin' mad at constantly having to log in and this has been going on for some time.

Do you have a trouble ticket open with IT on your reported issue? I've not had this issue firsthand - so it's not something I can repro. Does this occur across multiple browsers/devices?

 

[rickandcindy23]

Most timeshare companies can change the rules any time they want. It doesn't really matter who does/does not benefit from it. I also suspect most of us who say this believe that, at best, overall owner benefit is an afterthought. At best.

Yes, we are definitely at the mercy of those at the top.

Just think of the outrage if Marriott institutes these changes to owners in all of the systems they now manage. Total outrage throughout the entire TUGBBS. Because it's just Wyndham for now, a lot of folks aren't paying attention.

It's just that these changes right now make Wyndham look pretty petty and creepy (to me). If Marriott does it, we would have the same outrage toward the renters in those systems that we have here with Wyndham owners.

 

[dioxide45]

Yes, we are definitely at the mercy of those at the top.

Just think of the outrage if Marriott institutes these changes to owners in all of the systems they now manage. Total outrage throughout the entire TUGBBS. Because it's just Wyndham for now, a lot of folks aren't paying attention.

It's just that these changes right now make Wyndham look pretty petty and creepy (to me). If Marriott does it, we would have the same outrage toward the renters in those systems that we have here with Wyndham owners.

Over the years, I have seen some animosity toward the bigger Marriott renters. Not the vitriol we see here with Wyndham, but I have seen some. I am sure if Marriott started to institute restrictions, we would see a lot more.

 

[ronparise]

The idol worship of Ron is just sad. Ron settled out of court because he knew he couldn’t win in court. If he had the facts and the law on his side, why didn’t he fight Wyndham? Yes, owners can rent, occasionally. They can’t run a commercial enterprise (a fact as spelled out in the documentation copied in post #97) as Ron was clearly doing. That is a fact. That is why he settled without a fight.

A couple of things:

I dont think there is anyone that idolizes me.
"settled out of court" implies that somebody sued somebody. . But there was no lawsuit. We came to an agreement
Folks settle all the time especially when its an individual dealing with a big corporation
I would argue that Wyndham did what they did because they were concerned that they might lose

Wyndham's first offer was that "I was to sign everything back to them, and they wouldn't sue". When I answered... "Bring it on" and suggested everything was for sale, I never heard the mention of court again. Not even foreclosure. They came to me with a purchase offer. I think they made me an offer, because they knew that they couldnt win in court. basically, I called their bluff

If I had done something that had violated the rules, why, as soon as I was gone, did they change those rules? instead of just enforcing them.

 

[Rolltydr]

A couple of things:

I dont think there is anyone that idolizes me.
"settled out of court" implies that somebody sued somebody. . But there was no lawsuit. We came to an agreement
Folks settle all the time especially when its an individual dealing with a big corporation
I would argue that Wyndham did what they did because they were concerned that they might lose

Wyndham's first offer was that "I was to sign everything back to them, and they wouldn't sue". When I answered... "Bring it on" and suggested everything was for sale, I never heard the mention of court again. Not even foreclosure. They came to me with a purchase offer. I think they made me an offer, because they knew that they couldnt win in court. basically, I called their bluff

If I had done something that had violated the rules, why, as soon as I was gone, did they change those rules? instead of just enforcing them.

IMHO, your own post linked below says it all. You can say whatever you want to now, but in the moment, you admitted you were running a “hustle“, your word not mine. That, at the very least, suggests unethical behavior and you just didn’t care.

Edited to fix link.

[ Thread is unlocked ] Megarenter Rap Lawsuit

In my opinion Wyndham should have never let someone own 60 million points…they must of [sic] let this happen for a reason.. seems like someone had a personal interest with in Wyndham to let this continue and it must be a higher up person.. that’s just my theory ‍♀ It's not a particularly...

tugbbs.com

Say whatever you want, I won’t be responding any further.

 

[paxsarah]

you admitted you were running a “hustle“, your word not mine. That, at the very least, suggests unethical behavior and you just didn’t care.

A pretty common usage of the term "hustle" over the past 5-10 years is simply as a gig or money-making opportunity that is neither a salaried/payrolled job nor a full-fledged business. ("Lily is a teacher but she also has a side hustle selling frog figurines on Etsy.") You can assume it suggests unethical behavior, but in doing so you'd be ignoring recent common parlance.

 

[rickandcindy23]

A pretty common usage of the term "hustle" over the past 5-10 years is simply as a gig or money-making opportunity that is neither a salaried/payrolled job nor a full-fledged business. ("Lily is a teacher but she also has a side hustle selling frog figurines on Etsy.") You can assume it suggests unethical behavior, but in doing so you'd be ignoring recent common parlance.

I agree with you.

Ron had a side business of Wyndham rentals, just like we have had for 15 years. Getting out for him is easier than it is for us. That is the only reason I am jealous of Ron. I am so jealous. I want out, yet my email to the email address on the letter they sent got me nada. Not even an answer back. I am still waiting.

Why are people so mean about Ron giving away contracts that were empty of points to people who knew what they were buying. It makes no sense at all.

 

[bnoble]

I want out, yet my email to the email address on the letter they sent got me nada. Not even an answer back. I am still waiting.

Have you called the Certified Exit folks?

 

[ronparise]

Most Marriott resort CC&Rs and Exchange Company procedures have provisions against commercial use. Like Wyndham, they don't define it. They actually are worse than Wyndham. Per the screen shot earlier in this thread, Wyndham seems to define rentals as commercial use. For Marriott CC&Rs they have no definition at all, it could be defined as running a barber shop in your unit while on vacation. There are a few big renters on the Marriott side, but none I would call a mega renter. I think the biggest I know of has about 30 weeks. I would think the big ones in Wyndham rent much more than that.

I am not aware that Wyndham could stop someone from renting their home resort deeded week, it just so happens that not many of those really exist since most are just part of Club Wyndham, which is an exchange company bound by its terms.

I owned 14 deeded weeks at Avenue Plaza

There are a few things that will not change about the topic of mega renters, and people like Ron.

1. Yes, despite what they lead on about, they know that what they did is, at best, unethical. At worst, fraudulent. There's no other way to skin that cat.
2. They will never admit as such... they will make excuses like "they let us", even though any analog to the real world such as the "malfunctioning ATM machine" that you keep exploiting "because it let you" would land you in jail for grand theft
3. What Ron did was an act of self preservation. Period. He saw the writing on the wall, in my opinion knew he had no legal standing to refute what was coming, so made a "grand gesture" to Wyndham, who, for reasons we will never know why, bit and offered a settlement. And Ron came out smelling like a rose
4. Ron will always have his defenders. He told a lot of people his tricks, and a lot of people here benefited from his tips to game the system...
5. And this is the most important one. The people who benefited the most from "gaming the system" will never admit that they, almost exclusively, were the reason things were changed which have deprecated owners rights and VIP benefits over the years... this is undeniable. And they will not admit it and don't like being called out on it. They would rather pass the buck.

1) What I did was not unethical or fraudulent. You saying that it is does not make it so, anymore than me saying its not, makes that the case.

Fraud is a person or thing intended to deceive others, typically by unjustifiably claiming or being credited with accomplishments or qualities. There was no deception here, I was pretty upfront about what I was doing and how I was doing it, with Tug and Wyndham

Ethics and morals relate to “right” and “wrong” conduct. While they are sometimes used interchangeably, they are different: ethics refer to rules provided by an external source, e.g., codes of conduct in workplaces or principles in religions. Morals refer to an individual's own principles regarding right and wrong.
Call it what you will, but I broke no rules nor did I violate my own principles

2) I freely admit to what I did. I dont admit to doing anything wrong

3) And no question I chose to accept a deal that was less than I wanted, in order to live to see another day

4) And most importantly. Yes I think we educated Wyndham on how we were using the system and as I have posted in the past Im pretty sure they changed the rules because of that. What I take from that is...Wyndham didnt like that we were making money with their product, but that they also knew we were not doing anything wrong. Of courseI know that to stop it, they had to get rid of us, and change the rules so it couldnt happen again

 

[bnoble]

Wyndham didnt like that we were making money with their product, but that they also knew we were not doing anything wrong.

I'd amend this slightly. I think the Wyndham back-office/management layer was also surprised (and unhappy) that certain program features were being used in unintended ways and combinations. They might have been expected to have known about them--and certainly some Wyn employees on the front lines knew some or most of it---but I think they learned a lot along the way of digging into the accounts of a few folks that were making money with their product. The "making money with the product" was definitely the impetus for the hard look, but not the (only) reason why rules changed.

 

[T-Dot-Traveller]

...... You can say whatever ....

.., but in the moment, you admitted you were running a “hustle“, .......

How to do the hustle // Dance - Youtube video -at the Children's Museum of Indianapolis - 2017

1) Does this look like Ron ?
Yes or No

2) Do the instructions - 4 steps back / 4 steps forward actually describe the Wyndham Dance Model ?
Yes or No

3) Does the guy in the video remind you of " your favorite" timeshare salesperson ?
Yes or No

 

[ronparise]

#6. And THIS is the most important one. Wyndham didn't mind that accounts were being stripped and sold and the new owner was responsible for paying the maintenance fees moving forward, until they were the new owners. You keep holding up Ron as an example, he was not the only one stripping accounts, he may have been the most transparent, but he was not the only one. There are reasons Wyndham settled with many with nondisclosures. Perhaps one of those reasons is they weren't sure if they'd win in court (we'll never know).

IMHO, your own post linked below says it all. You can say whatever you want to now, but in the moment, you admitted you were running a “hustle“, your word not mine. That, at the very least, suggests unethical behavior and you just didn’t care.

Edited to fix link.

[ Thread is unlocked ] Megarenter Rap Lawsuit

In my opinion Wyndham should have never let someone own 60 million points…they must of [sic] let this happen for a reason.. seems like someone had a personal interest with in Wyndham to let this continue and it must be a higher up person.. that’s just my theory ‍♀ It's not a particularly...

tugbbs.com

Say whatever you want, I won’t be responding any further.

Yea, I called it a hustle. and I think that is what it was. But all I mean by that is that its not a career, its not a job, and its not a business. Certainly not that I did anything wrong. Currently I drive my car for Uber and that's referred to as a "side hustle", Its not illegal. unethical or wrong in anyway.

 

[WManning]

Yea, I called it a hustle. and I think that is what it was. But all I mean by that is that its not a career, its not a job, and its not a business. Certainly not that I did anything wrong. Currently I drive my car for Uber and that's referred to as a "side hustle", Its not illegal. unethical or wrong in anyway.

I like these girls hustle better then Ron`s!

 

[rickandcindy23]

Have you called the Certified Exit folks?

It's tough to say what they will do vs. what they will refuse to do for a "mega renter."

 

[dioxide45]

IMHO, your own post linked below says it all. You can say whatever you want to now, but in the moment, you admitted you were running a “hustle“, your word not mine. That, at the very least, suggests unethical behavior and you just didn’t care.

Edited to fix link.

[ Thread is unlocked ] Megarenter Rap Lawsuit

In my opinion Wyndham should have never let someone own 60 million points…they must of [sic] let this happen for a reason.. seems like someone had a personal interest with in Wyndham to let this continue and it must be a higher up person.. that’s just my theory ‍♀ It's not a particularly...

tugbbs.com

Say whatever you want, I won’t be responding any further.

The term "side hustle" is quite common. That certainly doesn't indicate anything unethical.

noun Slang.
a job or occupation that brings in extra money beyond one’s regular job and main source of income:

 

[CO skier]

1) What I did was not unethical or fraudulent. You saying that it is does not make it so, anymore than me saying its not, makes that the case.

The same could be said about insider trading in the stock market, before laws (rules) were enacted in response to the abuse.

My story is well known here on TUG. From 2010 -2016 I grew from 325000 points That I won on ebay with a $1 bid to over 30 million I started with the goal of doing enough rentals each year so that the rental income would pay all my maintenance fees with enough points left over for a week or so for me..

That worked and I set a new goal to make $2000 a month profit.. That worked and I kept growing.

You ask about the business case> I never claimed to have a business... I had a hustle and I always knew that it wouldnt last forever

What I (and others) did cant be done anymore because Wyndham closed the loopholes we used to make cheap VIP accounts, to get discounts on reservations made 10-13 months in advance, and to use 3 years of points while paying less than a years mf.

Why would Wyndham close those loopholes if the behavior was "legal" and "above board" and "nothing wrong with it"?

 

[CO skier]

The term "side hustle" is quite common. That certainly doesn't indicate anything unethical.

noun Slang.
a job or occupation that brings in extra money beyond one’s regular job and main source of income:

Also (from a Google search for" hustle definition"):

INFORMAL•NORTH AMERICAN
a fraud or swindle.

 

[Eric B]

Heading up to New York City on an RCI exchange next week. As do many people, I thoroughly enjoy visiting the fraud, swindle, and bustle of that city. Something seems odd about that, though; maybe I've misinterpreted the phrase somehow....

 

[rickandcindy23]

Heading up to New York City on an RCI exchange next week. As do many people, I thoroughly enjoy visiting the fraud, swindle, and bustle of that city. Something seems odd about that, though; maybe I've misinterpreted the phrase somehow....

Where are you staying?

I always feel kind of sorry for the people who own at Manhattan Club. I can stay there so much cheaper than they stay in their own property. That makes exchanges kind of a hustle, too. I also think of that when I stay at any Disney property via exchange. We are here now. 105,000 Wyndham points + exchange and $190 fee. It's my best hustle. My next best hustle is Maui Westins with my SBP and SDO weeks. Two bedrooms for a one bedroom price + upgrade. I didn't even pay big bucks for those upgrades, just a free timeshare + exchange fee and $59 upgrade fee.

I feel like such a hustler. You don't want to see this 67-year-old lady doing the hustle dance.

 

[Eric B]

Where are you staying?

I always feel kind of sorry for the people who own at Manhattan Club. I can stay there so much cheaper than they stay in their own property. That makes exchanges kind of a hustle, too. I also think of that when I stay at any Disney property via exchange. We are here now. 105,000 Wyndham points + exchange and $190 fee. It's my best hustle. My next best hustle is Maui Westins with my SBP and SDO weeks. Two bedrooms for a one bedroom price + upgrade. I didn't even pay big bucks for those upgrades, just a free timeshare + exchange fee and $59 upgrade fee.

I feel like such a hustler. You don't want to see this 67-year-old lady doing the hustle dance.

Well, my best "hustle" this year so far has been a week in a 2 BR residence at Ritz Carlton St Thomas in April that I was able to get by:

1. Exchange Plusing a couple of Colonies weeks into WorldMark, resulting in 16K WM Credits, 2 HKs, and 2 GCs for a cost lower than my 16K account's dues, then
2. Booking a week for 16K with WorldMark and depositing it in ThirdHome to get 9 keys, then
3. Booking the week I wanted in St Thomas for just 6 keys, making the week's all in cost ~$1,700 - not inexpensive, but someone else there the same week had rented their 2 BR week from an owner for $10,000.

I really don't feel like a hustler for doing my best to learn about how to efficiently use my timeshares and taking advantage of the systems that the developers of the resort systems and exchanges set up to meet their own needs. For me, the bottom line is that the timeshare industry gets the majority of its income from taking advantage of the information inequality of the consumers - in particular the fact that most folks don't know how much less they can buy resale ownerships for as compared to retail. TUG is a great resource for learning as much as I can about how timeshares can be used after having been a sucker the first time.

If we are going to call @ronparise a swindler or fraud for figuring out that there were some very poor decisions being made by Wyndham in the way they set up their operations that would result in his being able to make some income by renting bookings that cost him little to nothing, then we should call everyone that reads TUG a swindler or fraud because we're all doing it to find out how to best use our ownerships (except for the developer reps that read it to figure out how they hosed up their systems). Any other interpretation is probably hypocritical.

I don't idolize Ron, but I do respect him for being open and honest about what he was doing. I also don't think it's a great surprise to learn that Wyndham was motivated to make the changes they made given that the behaviors they were getting (lots of rentals competing with Extra Holidays) from the incentive system they set up (VIP benefits & credit pool) were not the behaviors they wanted (more sales and rental profits for themselves).

One thing I am looking forward to in the fairly near future is the formal roll out of the Marriott/Vistana combination rules - added complexity and another exchange system will create more opportunities to "hustle" a bit and improve the efficiency of my usage.

 

[rickandcindy23]

Well, my best "hustle" this year so far has been a week in a 2 BR residence at Ritz Carlton St Thomas in April that I was able to get by:

1. Exchange Plusing a couple of Colonies weeks into WorldMark, resulting in 16K WM Credits, 2 HKs, and 2 GCs for a cost lower than my 16K account's dues, then
2. Booking a week for 16K with WorldMark and depositing it in ThirdHome to get 9 keys, then
3. Booking the week I wanted in St Thomas for just 6 keys, making the week's all in cost ~$1,700 - not inexpensive, but someone else there the same week had rented their 2 BR week from an owner for $10,000.

I really don't feel like a hustler for doing my best to learn about how to efficiently use my timeshares and taking advantage of the systems that the developers of the resort systems and exchanges set up to meet their own needs. For me, the bottom line is that the timeshare industry gets the majority of its income from taking advantage of the information inequality of the consumers - in particular the fact that most folks don't know how much less they can buy resale ownerships for as compared to retail. TUG is a great resource for learning as much as I can about how timeshares can be used after having been a sucker the first time.

If we are going to call @ronparise a swindler or fraud for figuring out that there were some very poor decisions being made by Wyndham in the way they set up their operations that would result in his being able to make some income by renting bookings that cost him little to nothing, then we should call everyone that reads TUG a swindler or fraud because we're all doing it to find out how to best use our ownerships (except for the developer reps that read it to figure out how they hosed up their systems). Any other interpretation is probably hypocritical.

I don't idolize Ron, but I do respect him for being open and honest about what he was doing. I also don't think it's a great surprise to learn that Wyndham was motivated to make the changes they made given that the behaviors they were getting (lots of rentals competing with Extra Holidays) from the incentive system they set up (VIP benefits & credit pool) were not the behaviors they wanted (more sales and rental profits for themselves).

One thing I am looking forward to in the fairly near future is the formal roll out of the Marriott/Vistana combination rules - added complexity and another exchange system will create more opportunities to "hustle" a bit and improve the efficiency of my usage.

I agree with this.

A new CEO can change everything with Wyndham. Could get worse or better. Who knows?

Marriott/ Vistana changes are something I am watching closely. We did just buy mandatory where we want to stay. Passed ROFR. Pretty excited.

 

[comicbookman]

The same could be said about insider trading in the stock market, before laws (rules) were enacted in response to the abuse.



Why would Wyndham close those loopholes if the behavior was "legal" and "above board" and "nothing wrong with it"?

Using your insider trading analogy, because they did not want it to continue in order to stop it they had to CHANGE THE RULES. Until the laws preventing it, insider trading was not illegal. Same here.

 

[Sugarcubesea]

I agree with this.

A new CEO can change everything with Wyndham. Could get worse or better. Who knows?

Marriott/ Vistana changes are something I am watching closely. We did just buy mandatory where we want to stay. Passed ROFR. Pretty excited.

Cindy, where did you just just buy mandatory at?

 

[dioxide45]

Why would Wyndham close those loopholes if the behavior was "legal" and "above board" and "nothing wrong with it"?

Seems that they changed the rules because they didn't like it, it cost them money, or something else. It wasn't "illegal" until it was written into the rules.