Koala warns Wyndham is cancelling reservations based on Wyndham's "updated policy" Anyone know what's up?

[Sandi Bo]

Look under some of the Marriott and Westin resorts under Redweek. When do you see anyone complaining about the dozens of ads on Redweek for Marriott and Westin resorts that owners are renting.

Low-class Wyndham is the only company targeting "mega renters." And you are all going along with it. It's mob mentality. Reserve what you need way ahead of time and stop expecting inventory to be there when you want it. No one who owns Staroptions or DP is complaining that nothing is available to them within 60 days.

Wyndham has major IT issues and it's reflecting on my WorldMark and Shell ownerships because they are managing those as well. Why is Wyndham not the target of your ire, when they are the ones that created this animosity by selling more points as a rental product.

Does Marriott and Westin resorts have comparable rental arms (to Extra Holidays)?

 

[comicbookman]

I assume you’re definition of a “self-righteous know-it-all” is someone who knows the rules and abides by them. What do you call someone who knows the rules and refuses to abide by them?

I think we can disagree and get along fine as along as everybody is honest about what the rules are, or even that there are rules governing what someone is allowed to do with their timeshare. Some owners seem to have the opinion that ”I bought it. It’s mine. I can do whatever I want”. As pointed out numerous times on this board, just because you got away with doing something in the past, that doesn’t mean you have the right to do it. Running a commercial enterprise is not allowed. Period.

True, but as a lawyer I would point out that since "commercial enterprise" is not specifically defined, one could argue that Wyndham's ignoring, and active encouragement, of what people like Ron were doing was proof that it did not fit the definition. When they changed their mind and declared that it did, (within their right) they were obligated to compensate, or at least not punish, those whose past actions were no longer allowed. On a practical note, after the great mega renter purge, I did not notice a large uptick in availability, so I have to wonder if Wyndham's motivation was more selfish, than altruistic. After, decades of Wyndham claiming they were going to reign in the salespeople, and the mess they have made of the website upgrades/transition, I find most explanations from Wyndham to be suspect. That said, I do enjoy their product and have for almost 30 years. Alot of that is due to the sharing of knowledge here on TUG.

 

[rickandcindy23]

Does Marriott and Westin resorts have comparable rental arms (to Extra Holidays)?

Well, sure. They have the hotel site and rent for outrageous prices, just like Wyndham. They do rent Westin Ka'anapali and Westin Princeville and the Marriott resorts on all of the islands. You can extend your stay by adding a night or two (and very expensively, I might add). They rent not just the hotels, but they rent the villas. I would say it's separate inventory, maybe.

Not that I am trying to rile owners of Marriott and Westin for their slew of mega renters. I am not doing that at all. I am just pointing out that those owners are not being targeted by Marriott/ Westin/ Hilton/ Hyatt and all of the other systems out there.

 

[rickandcindy23]

Poor Ron Parise, he is not even here to defend himself against the accusations people are making about him. He broke no rules. He credit pooled points into the current use year then tried to give away his contracts empty, which was within his right to do. Why are people still accusing him of stealing from the people who agreed to take his contracts?

 

[chapjim]

I asked what post was edited, you said #104. #104 was MY post but you asked Eric why he edited his post. Did he edit his post? If he did, it wasn't #104. I don't understand why you asked Eric to put his post back since it was #104 that was edited.

What I get from all of this is, when one can't argue on the merits of the issue they devolve to calling out grammar and typos.

Okay, I see it now.

 

[paxsarah]

Poor Ron Parise, he is not even here to defend himself against the accusations people are making about him. He broke no rules. He credit pooled points into the current use year then tried to give away his contracts empty, which was within his right to do. Why are people still accusing him of stealing from the people who agreed to take his contracts?

He posted in this forum as recently as Sunday, so I think he'll be okay.

 

[Eric B]

Well, sure. They have the hotel site and rent for outrageous prices, just like Wyndham. They do rent Westin Ka'anapali and Westin Princeville and the Marriott resorts on all of the islands. You can extend your stay by adding a night or two (and very expensively, I might add). They rent not just the hotels, but they rent the villas. I would say it's separate inventory, maybe.

Not that I am trying to rile owners of Marriott and Westin for their slew of mega renters. I am not doing that at all. I am just pointing out that those owners are not being targeted by Marriott/ Westin/ Hilton/ Hyatt and all of the other systems out there.

With Westin, at least, the CC&Rs, etc., for the developments I own in specifically allow for rental by an owner of weeks in the season and unit type they own. Not sure if they police VSN bookings outside of those criteria to any particular extent, but they are supposed to prohibit that. As a result, it's not really a megarenter situation (or at least I'm unaware of it if it is).

My understanding of Marriott's system is that they do allow sale/rental of points from one owner to another, which could kind of alleviate the issues.

Poor Ron Parise, he is not even here to defend himself against the accusations people are making about him. He broke no rules. He credit pooled points into the current use year then tried to give away his contracts empty, which was within his right to do. Why are people still accusing him of stealing from the people who agreed to take his contracts?

Actually, I believe he is and does. There've been a couple of postings by @ronparise lately.

 

[dioxide45]

Most Marriott resort CC&Rs and Exchange Company procedures have provisions against commercial use. Like Wyndham, they don't define it. They actually are worse than Wyndham. Per the screen shot earlier in this thread, Wyndham seems to define rentals as commercial use. For Marriott CC&Rs they have no definition at all, it could be defined as running a barber shop in your unit while on vacation. There are a few big renters on the Marriott side, but none I would call a mega renter. I think the biggest I know of has about 30 weeks. I would think the big ones in Wyndham rent much more than that.

I am not aware that Wyndham could stop someone from renting their home resort deeded week, it just so happens that not many of those really exist since most are just part of Club Wyndham, which is an exchange company bound by its terms.

 

[rickandcindy23]

I am in Orlando with the kids and grandkids for three weeks and haven't been following as closely as I usually do. I didn't see Ron posting.

I do rent a lot of Sheraton Broadway Plantation, we own quite a few of those, and not one person has pointed out that I am a mega renter of that product. That is all I rent in the Vistana system. Those are deeded floating weeks.

I have considered getting into the Marriott system with my floating weeks, but I don't think I would do all that well with it just owning Willow Ridge. So I am staying away from that idea for now. At some point, I may choose to enroll weeks, but I will need to buy something better than my four annual Willow Ridge to do it. These are great for getting us great exchanges to places that I never see for exchange with my Sheraton weeks.

The thing is, Marriott owners do rent. They book great resorts and rent them out. Owners get first crack at what they own. Then it's a free-for-all.

So Marriott owners get first opportunity for their owned units. Wyndham owners also can book what they own.

Marriott owners can book anywhere in the system after a certain length of time passes. It's the same for Wyndham owners.

The real difference is the discounts that Platinum and Gold owners get at < 60 days that really is the target of the anger I see here. Wyndham took care to make sure resale doesn't get any discounts. That should have created a lot of inventory to owners. Did it? I don't see it.

Look at RCI for rentals of Wyndham. It will make you cringe. Who owns RCI?

 

[dioxide45]

True, but as a lawyer I would point out that since "commercial enterprise" is not specifically defined, one could argue that Wyndham's ignoring, and active encouragement, of what people like Ron were doing was proof that it did not fit the definition. When they changed their mind and declared that it did, (within their right) they were obligated to compensate, or at least not punish, those whose past actions were no longer allowed. On a practical note, after the great mega renter purge, I did not notice a large uptick in availability, so I have to wonder if Wyndham's motivation was more selfish, than altruistic. After, decades of Wyndham claiming they were going to reign in the salespeople, and the mess they have made of the website upgrades/transition, I find most explanations from Wyndham to be suspect. That said, I do enjoy their product and have for almost 30 years. Alot of that is due to the sharing of knowledge here on TUG.

Looking at this posted by @HitchHiker71 earlier. It looks like they define "commercial use" better than most;

 

[rickandcindy23]

He posted in this forum as recently as Sunday, so I think he'll be okay.

Not that I was worried because Ron has practically posted his life story here, and some are constantly berating him. I am tired of the animosity toward mega renters.

 

[comicbookman]

Looking at this posted by @HitchHiker71 earlier. It looks like they define "commercial use" better than most;
View attachment 52502

When is that from? I agree they define it now.

 

[rickandcindy23]

Looking at this posted by @HitchHiker71 earlier. It looks like they define "commercial use" better than most;
View attachment 52502

That is not in the contract we signed. So they can just change their rules whenever, and we are all just supposed to bow down and let them take over the rentals.

 

[bnoble]

There are a few big renters on the Marriott side, but none I would call a mega renter.

That's likely in part because the economics are very different. Wyndham's cost basis for acquisition is next to nothing, so the per-rental margins can be low and still make sense as a volume business. Marriott's cost basis is quite a bit higher, and that means you need a much better margin to make it worth the effort, and a high-volume business would be prohibitively expensive. If you have that kind of capital laying around, there are almost certainly better (more lucrative) uses for it.

 

[dioxide45]

That is not in the contract we signed. So they can just change their rules whenever, and we are all just supposed to bow down and let them take over the rentals.

I am sure many people didn't sign a contract if they purchased resale. They just have a deed at a resort and their ownership is part of Club Wyndham. Club Wyndham is an exchange company which has terms of use. Terms of use often indicate that they can change them with or without notice. Owners have remedy, which is litigation. It just usually isn't worth the fight. The other option is to take the week out of Club Wyndham (is that possible?) and use the weeks as deeded weeks.

 

[dioxide45]

That's likely in part because the economics are very different. Wyndham's cost basis for acquisition is next to nothing, so the per-rental margins can be low and still make sense as a volume business. Marriott's cost basis is quite a bit higher, and that means you need a much better margin to make it worth the effort, and a high-volume business would be prohibitively expensive. If you have that kind of capital laying around, there are almost certainly better (more lucrative) uses for it.

Good point. I am sure many of those 30 Marriott weeks cost tens of thousands of dollars each to acquire. So the margins may be good when looking at rental rate vs maintenance fee, but the percentage return on the whole investment would be lower. If someone buys a week for $30K and gets $2000 over MFs, that is a return of only 6.7%. One year like 2020 could wipe out years of gains.

 

[rickandcindy23]

I am sure many people didn't sign a contract if they purchased resale. They just have a deed at a resort and their ownership is part of Club Wyndham. Club Wyndham is an exchange company which has terms of use. Terms of use often indicate that they can change them with or without notice. Owners have remedy, which is litigation. It just usually isn't worth the fight. The other option is to take the week out of Club Wyndham (is that possible?) and use the weeks as deeded weeks.

Totally agree that it is not worth the fight. I am actually hoping to get a resolution like Ron received. He is my hero.

I have gotten plenty back from Wyndham and am frankly tired of paying the fees and having the rules change constantly. It's been a good ride, but we are tired of Wyndham and their incessant need to berate us for doing what we have always done.

 

[Rolltydr]

Look under some of the Marriott and Westin resorts under Redweek. When do you see anyone complaining about the dozens of ads on Redweek for Marriott and Westin resorts that owners are renting.

Low-class Wyndham is the only company targeting "mega renters." And you are all going along with it. It's mob mentality. Reserve what you need way ahead of time and stop expecting inventory to be there when you want it. No one who owns Staroptions or DP is complaining that nothing is available to them within 60 days.

Wyndham has major IT issues and it's reflecting on my WorldMark and Shell ownerships because they are managing those as well. Why is Wyndham not the target of your ire, when they are the ones that created this animosity by selling more points as a rental product.

Wyndham is not the target of my ire because the Wyndham corporation or IT department did not make any owner start running a business with their points. That is a decision the owner made 100% on their own. Whether they got bad advice, didn't read their contract, etc. etc. The owner is totally responsible for that decision.

I have plenty of ire for the Wyndham IT department at times. However, they have a website and phone numbers that I can call to make reservations. The website is clunky but their isn't anything in the contract, that I am aware of, where they promised to provide a world-class website that would do everything I want it to do, when I want it to do it, and how I want it to do it. The website is usable the great majority of the time. They have issues, as all websites do, at times. They fix them and we move on, just like every other major corporation. It's not something I can stay mad about 24/7.

I only own Wyndham points and have no interest in purchasing another brand. Wyndham works very well for us. Maybe everyone that hates Wyndham should sell their contracts and purchase Marriott and Westin. Sounds like they would be a lot happier.

 

[rickandcindy23]

@Rolltydr That's such irony right there. They rent way more than you even know about (because why would you know how much?), yet your issue is with owners who were told one thing and are now being told another thing.

It's so easy for a big corporation with stockholders to get by with this. It's hilarious. Where is the outrage? I just want an easy way out of the points we own. Give me an easy way out, and I will take it, Wyndham (giant corporation).

 

[Eric B]

The real difference is the discounts that Platinum and Gold owners get at < 60 days that really is the target of the anger I see here. Wyndham took care to make sure resale doesn't get any discounts. That should have created a lot of inventory to owners. Did it? I don't see it.

That issue could be addressed if Wyndham did something like decline to issue guest confirmations for any discounted bookings or limit them to "permitted guests". They haven't done that because they really aren't all that concerned about rentals of discounted bookings - the reason they are discounted is because of low demand anyway for non-VIP bookings that are made available for specific resorts that have demonstrated low occupancy rates or for VIP discounts within 60 days where high-demand availability should have already been booked. Prohibiting those as rentals would cut down own the flow of prospective buyers to sales presentations at the resorts and impact the bottom line.

That was reasonable as a target of anger when Wyndham allowed the cancel and rebook method of getting a discount.

 

[Eric B]

That is a decision the owner made 100% on their own.

LOL!

 

[Rolltydr]

@Rolltydr That's such irony right there. They rent way more than you even know about (because why would you know how much?), yet your issue is with owners who were told one thing and are now being told another thing.

It's so easy for a big corporation with stockholders to get by with this. It's hilarious. Where is the outrage? I just want an easy way out of the points we own. Give me an easy way out, and I will take it, Wyndham (giant corporation).

I believe you have plenty of outrage for all of us.

 

[rickandcindy23]

That issue could be addressed if Wyndham did something like decline to issue guest confirmations for any discounted bookings or limit them to "permitted guests". They haven't done that because they really aren't all that concerned about rentals of discounted bookings - the reason they are discounted is because of low demand anyway for non-VIP bookings that are made available for specific resorts that have demonstrated low occupancy rates or for VIP discounts within 60 days where high-demand availability should have already been booked. Prohibiting those as rentals would cut down own the flow of prospective buyers to sales presentations at the resorts and impact the bottom line.

That was reasonable as a target of anger when Wyndham allowed the cancel and rebook method of getting a discount.

I agree that cancel and rebook was great while it lasted for us as "mega renters", and I also agree that it was not a level playing field for regular owners to be able to take advantage of the cancellations. I agree 100% with that. That was not fair to everyone.

 

[rickandcindy23]

I believe you have plenty of outrage for all of us.

That's the thing. I am not outraged. Nothing has really changed. Read what Eric just posted. 100% agree with his post. Very succinct and accurate. Still guest certificates are allowed. Pay for those, and you still can rent, just not certain things. It's all a game for Wyndham.

Anyone who thinks Wyndham is not making mega renters look like the devil is beyond gullible.

 

[HitchHiker71]

When is that from? I agree they define it now.

It's been on the website for as long as I have been an owner - including on the Voyager website - under the Points Protection section when performing a booking, screenshot below for reference: