Updated Privileges Brochure

[dgalati]

... however, it is perfectly fine to buy for $1 something someone paid hundreds of thousands of dollars for

Wyndham does this with Ovations so I guess its OK. Only difference between Wyndham and most resale buyers is resale buyers don't sell at 5 to 6 figures.

 

[Sandi Bo]

I’ve done both - the PIC Plus enrollment and added resale contract points to my VIP account. I’m following the rules like others have and I’m not ashamed to have gotten my higher VIP tier using PIC Plus.

The only point meant by my post is that the purchase(s) in either case was made with both full knowledge and intent that VIP benefits would apply to resale (or that the PIC contract enrollment piggy backed to the developer purchase). To suggest that it wasn’t a planned step is simply hair splitting.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

And I'll add to that... if tomorrow, Wyndham changes the rules and VIP benefits do not apply to resale points, we should not be surprised. Inheriting a VIPP is awesome, don't get me wrong, but the maintenance fees are on the high side. I've been able to balance those out purchasing resale at much lower MF's. It also leaves me with desirable contracts, regardless, even if the ability to apply VIP benefits goes away.

I don't have any PICs, but could that benefit be taken away? Since Wyndham markets it the way they do, maybe the benefit would be grandfathered? I might be more upset were that benefit be taken away, but still, shouldn't one be ready for anything?

The only thing constant with Wyndham is change. Plan for the worst and hope for the best. And enjoy it while it lasts.

 

[Eric B]

IMHO, they would be less likely to take away the PIC privileges because you’re paying the program fees on those and they get to rent out the weeks if you PIC them.

 

[Richelle]

I’ve done both - the PIC Plus enrollment and added resale contract points to my VIP account. I’m following the rules like others have and I’m not ashamed to have gotten my higher VIP tier using PIC Plus.

The only point meant by my post is that the purchase(s) in either case was made with both full knowledge and intent that VIP benefits would apply to resale (or that the PIC contract enrollment piggy backed to the developer purchase). To suggest that it wasn’t a planned step is simply hair splitting.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

You're assuming they know those benefits will be applied when they buy resale, or had resale and went VIP. You are assuming all owners are as knowledgeable as Tug members. Tug members are a tiny portion of their ownership. I spend enough time on the Facebook groups to know there are a ton of people who know little to nothing about what they own.

 

[Richelle]

IMHO, they would be less likely to take away the PIC privileges because you’re paying the program fees on those and they get to rent out the weeks if you PIC them.

You're paying the program fee on the resale points as well. Wyndham claims that resale owners are a small portion of their ownership base. If that's true, going through the trouble of reprogramming the system to be able to restrict a small subset of points like that might not be worth it. Not worth the cost or not worth the risk of something going wrong.

 

[Richelle]

And I'll add to that... if tomorrow, Wyndham changes the rules and VIP benefits do not apply to resale points, we should not be surprised. Inheriting a VIPP is awesome, don't get me wrong, but the maintenance fees are on the high side. I've been able to balance those out purchasing resale at much lower MF's. It also leaves me with desirable contracts, regardless, even if the ability to apply VIP benefits goes away.

I don't have any PICs, but could that benefit be taken away? Since Wyndham markets it the way they do, maybe the benefit would be grandfathered? I might be more upset were that benefit be taken away, but still, shouldn't one be ready for anything?

The only thing constant with Wyndham is change. Plan for the worst and hope for the best. And enjoy it while it lasts.

I think if they took away PIC, even if they didn't allow exchanges anymore, we'd still keep our VIP status. At that point, there is no reason to keep the PIC week. So I could unload it and still have VIP with fewer maintenance fees if I don't replace it with a points contract.

 

[HitchHiker71]

I’ve done both - the PIC Plus enrollment and added resale contract points to my VIP account. I’m following the rules like others have and I’m not ashamed to have gotten my higher VIP tier using PIC Plus.

The only point meant by my post is that the purchase(s) in either case was made with both full knowledge and intent that VIP benefits would apply to resale (or that the PIC contract enrollment piggy backed to the developer purchase). To suggest that it wasn’t a planned step is simply hair splitting.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

My resale points were acquired primarily for rentals to offset the overall cost of my ownership. I specifically targeted low MF resale contracts to maximize the delta between the $/1000 cost and the $7-10/1000 I typically charge for rentals. While I did know that my resale contracts would enjoy certain VIP benefits - I did not acquire the resale contracts for that reason.

BTW, IME renting - the vast majority of rentals are not booked within the 60 day discount window - they are booked months in advance. The entire concept that somehow most VIP owners are booking rentals within the discount window is, again, the exception and not the rule. Most renters plan farther in advance IME.

There appears to be a false narrative repeatedly parroted on TUG that somehow the vast majority of rentals occur within the discount window. This is not accurate based upon what I know. It is the exception not the rule. I have no idea why this false narrative is so popular on TUG. It makes me wonder aloud what the motives really are for anyone that tends to push this narrative repeatedly.

The reality is that most people cannot vacation at the last minute on short notice - they have to plan in advance - especially when coordinating time off and availability with other friends and family members.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[dgalati]

I spend enough time on the Facebook groups to know there are a ton of people who know little to nothing about what they own.

This is a understatement. Many owners are ignorant about what they bought resale or developer. No excuse for anyone to not be informed about what they purchased with the information available today on the internet.

 

[CCdad]

This is a understatement. Many owners are ignorant about what they bought resale or developer. No excuse for anyone to not be informed about what they purchased with the information available today on the internet.

Unfortunately for the the non-internet savvy owners wanting to sell their VIP contracts, this lack of internet knowledge has caused the timeshare exit companies to thrive.

I was very disgusted when one shared how much they paid to TTG to unload a smaller contract.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[dgalati]

Unfortunately for the the non-internet savvy owners wanting to sell their VIP contracts, this lack of internet knowledge has caused the timeshare exit companies to thrive.

I was very disgusted when one shared how much they paid to TUG to unload a smaller contract.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yes I could never figure out how Sumday Vacations could sell a Grand Desert deed for $100 with all closing costs paid by seller. That was until I called a seller I was buying from through Sumday but the deed would not transfer before Dec 31. I asked him if he could deposit 300,000 points into RCI before they expired at the end of the year and I could compensate him for these points. He was also unaware about Ovations and after talking to him he told me he paid 4k to unload this deed. That day I fully understood how shark infested the Timeshare industry was. It it is very common and happens to way to many older owners. Many of us have bought cheap resale deeds from third parties that receive the inventory from the exit companies without knowing it. A lot of these cheap deeds can be found on ebay or are resale companies that are highly recommended on TUG. I have to ask are we to blame and are we perpetuating the problem of Exit companies that prey on the unknowing when we purchase these cheap no cost deeds?.

 

[chapjim]

<snip>

BTW, IME renting - the vast majority of rentals are not booked within the 60 day discount window - they are booked months in advance. The entire concept that somehow most VIP owners are booking rentals within the discount window is, again, the exception and not the rule. Most renters plan farther in advance IME.

There appears to be a false narrative repeatedly parroted on TUG that somehow the vast majority of rentals occur within the discount window. This is not accurate based upon what I know. It is the exception not the rule. I have no idea why this false narrative is so popular on TUG. It makes me wonder aloud what the motives really are for anyone that tends to push this narrative repeatedly.

The reality is that most people cannot vacation at the last minute on short notice - they have to plan in advance - especially when coordinating time off and availability with other friends and family members.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

My own account sees way more discounted and upgraded reservations. As far as short notice is concerned, many families can't deal with it and they will pay full price. But, there are enough people out there who can spot a bargain and are able to use it. That's not working very well this year, by the way!

I do both -- book via ARP at the first possible moment and book starting at Day 60. I end up canceling many of the reservations made 10-14 months before check-in either at Day 15 or so I can use the points for something I find while bottom feeding.

I did a quick look at my sheet for 2020, which does not show the dozens of reservations that I've canceled. I have forty-three Wyndham reservations with a check-in date of November 14 or earlier (i.e., they were used or are in use). Seven were not discounted or upgraded. Three were 2BR units at Royal Vista, booked at full price outside the 60 day window and because there was nothing to upgrade from or upgrade to when Day 60 came around. Two were Bike Week at Ocean Walk. Two were Mardi Gras at La Belle Maison. Same deal with those.

Obviously, 2020 is not a typical year. I canceled all the reservations I had at Bonnet Creek for the weeks before and after Easter and a bunch in May and June. Some would have been rented as undiscounted reservations with no upgrade.

For the rest of 2020, I have six reservations during the last three weeks in December, all of which were both discounted and upgraded. One is rented and we'll use one. If I don't find any more reservations and end up canceling the other four I have now, I'll roll 855,000 points into 2021.

 

[Richelle]

This is a understatement. Many owners are ignorant about what they bought resale or developer. No excuse for anyone to not be informed about what they purchased with the information available today on the internet.

He was also unaware about Ovations and after talking to him he told me he paid 4k to unload this deed. That day I fully understood how shark infested the Timeshare industry was. It it is very common and happens to way to many older owners.

So the owner who didn't know about Ovation was uninformed despite the information that is available on the internet. I do not think we are the problem. The exit companies charging insane amounts of money to desperate owners, and those owners not taking 10 minutes to research their options, are the problem. Timeshare exit companies take advantage of people's lack of knowledge. Timeshare salespeople do the same. Had the owner taken 10 minutes to research their options, or even call Wyndham to ask what their options were, they would not have paid thousands to exit their timeshare. 10 minutes would have saved them thousands. Even if we all stopped buying resale, the timeshare exit companies will still continue to make false promises. They would promise to take their timeshare off their hands. Then they would take their money and run. You don't need a resale market to run that scam. The only thing we can do is buy from reputable sellers who facilitate sales between owner and buyer directly. There is one broker on the Facebook groups that I have sold one of my contracts through. He found the buyer within hours and it was off my account in less than 10 weeks. Didn't cost me a dime. In fact, I made $400. I also purchased one from him. The closing company worked directly with the owner. Timeshare exit companies will still scam people. They don't need me to buy resale contracts to do that.

 

[dgalati]

So the owner who didn't know about Ovation was uninformed despite the information that is available on the internet. I do not think we are the problem. The exit companies charging insane amounts of money to desperate owners, and those owners not taking 10 minutes to research their options, are the problem. Timeshare exit companies take advantage of people's lack of knowledge. Timeshare salespeople do the same. Had the owner taken 10 minutes to research their options, or even call Wyndham to ask what their options were, they would not have paid thousands to exit their timeshare. 10 minutes would have saved them thousands. Even if we all stopped buying resale, the timeshare exit companies will still continue to make false promises. They would promise to take their timeshare off their hands. Then they would take their money and run. You don't need a resale market to run that scam. The only thing we can do is buy from reputable sellers who facilitate sales between owner and buyer directly. There is one broker on the Facebook groups that I have sold one of my contracts through. He found the buyer within hours and it was off my account in less than 10 weeks. Didn't cost me a dime. In fact, I made $400. I also purchased one from him. The closing company worked directly with the owner. Timeshare exit companies will still scam people. They don't need me to buy resale contracts to do that.

I agree but its troubling to know when buying from these exit companies I somehow enable the high fees they charge.

 

[Richelle]

I agree but its troubling to know when buying from these exit companies I somehow enable the high fees they charge.

If you were not there to take it, the owner wouldn't be getting out of it. The exit company would lie to them, telling them it's gone and to stop paying the fees and not answer the calls. At least this way, you salvaged their credit score.

 

[dgalati]

So the owner who didn't know about Ovation was uninformed despite the information that is available on the internet. I do not think we are the problem. The exit companies charging insane amounts of money to desperate owners, and those owners not taking 10 minutes to research their options, are the problem. Timeshare exit companies take advantage of people's lack of knowledge. Timeshare salespeople do the same. Had the owner taken 10 minutes to research their options, or even call Wyndham to ask what their options were, they would not have paid thousands to exit their timeshare. 10 minutes would have saved them thousands. Even if we all stopped buying resale, the timeshare exit companies will still continue to make false promises. They would promise to take their timeshare off their hands. Then they would take their money and run. You don't need a resale market to run that scam. The only thing we can do is buy from reputable sellers who facilitate sales between owner and buyer directly. There is one broker on the Facebook groups that I have sold one of my contracts through. He found the buyer within hours and it was off my account in less than 10 weeks. Didn't cost me a dime. In fact, I made $400. I also purchased one from him. The closing company worked directly with the owner. Timeshare exit companies will still scam people. They don't need me to buy resale contracts to do that.

I guess I can rationalize that its some how better then Ovations getting it for free then Wyndham fleecing another unsuspecting young couple into buying at 30k.

 

[CCdad]

Wyndham could or should know and track the statistics of both the age range and the booking characteristics of their owner base. They could've advertised Ovations to the over 70 crowd that may have little or no internet experience. Perhaps they're the ones that have to call their VCs to make all reservations and likely don't follow up to see if VIP discounts and upgrades might be available within 30-60 days of check in.

If they happen to have internet service, whose children or grandchildren have to come over and re-set the internet PW on their household devices when their cable modem flakes out due to a power loss. Too old to know how to "cut the cord" and switch to streaming services.

Both the timeshare exit companies and WD prey on those elderly.

What an opportunity for WD to use data analytics to do a great customer service thing, selectively offering Ovations to feed their inventory pipeline while keeping some of that business away from the exit companies.

And look at how many large contracts of all types are being offered on Ebay due to COVID-19; surely not all of those are coming from the mega-renters.

 

[Richelle]

I guess I can rationalize that its some how better then Ovations getting it for free then Wyndham fleecing another unsuspecting young couple into buying at 30k.

At least Wyndham doesn't charge people $5k to get out. They probably could charge for that service as other timeshare developers do, but they don't. As far as them selling to some sorry sap for $30k, it's up to the buyer to be informed and protect themselves. If they spend $30k on something they cannot afford, that's on them. I'll give you that some prey on the elderly. The elderly are victimized often because they make easy targets. It's not just timeshare salespeople who take advantage of them either. As for the rest of the buyers, most have no excuse. They know impulse buys are bad ideas but they do it anyway. Even worse, they don't take the time to read the flipping contract or learn the product. I get that at signing they are breathing down their neck, but after they get out of there, they should take 20 minutes to read through the contract. If they have time to sit in the sales office for hours, they have time to read a contract after they get out of there. Sorry, I see this on Facebook and it irks me. I have zero love for the salespeople, but people refuse to believe they had a role to play in that bad decision. One of my biggest pet peeves is someone blaming others for their bad choices. Another is people who don't help themselves and expect others to help them. So people will ask on Facebook what site they should go to, to book their reservations. In the time it took them to make that Facebook post, they could have done a google search and had that answer. People bewilder me sometimes.

 

[Jan M.]

Wyndham could or should know and track the statistics of both the age range and the booking characteristics of their owner base. They could've advertised Ovations to the over 70 crowd that may have little or no internet experience. Perhaps they're the ones that have to call their VCs to make all reservations and likely don't follow up to see if VIP discounts and upgrades might be available within 30-60 days of check in.

If they happen to have internet service, whose children or grandchildren have to come over and re-set the internet PW on their household devices when their cable modem flakes out due to a power loss. Too old to know how to "cut the cord" and switch to streaming services.

Both the timeshare exit companies and WD prey on those elderly.

What an opportunity for WD to use data analytics to do a great customer service thing, selectively offering Ovations to feed their inventory pipeline while keeping some of that business away from the exit companies.

And look at how many large contracts of all types are being offered on Ebay due to COVID-19; surely not all of those are coming from the mega-renters.

There were times in 2019 that I added up over 9M points just in offerings of more than 500k CWA points on eBay. I didn't include the many listings of less than 500k CWA points.

 

[HitchHiker71]

Wyndham could or should know and track the statistics of both the age range and the booking characteristics of their owner base. They could've advertised Ovations to the over 70 crowd that may have little or no internet experience. Perhaps they're the ones that have to call their VCs to make all reservations and likely don't follow up to see if VIP discounts and upgrades might be available within 30-60 days of check in.

You know, I’ve seen many people post online about how they were upgraded upon resort check-in. This never made sense to me as I’ve literally never received an upgrade upon check-in.

I had never connected the fact that there is a subset of owners who don’t use the website at all who are VIP and receive automatic upgrades. I wonder aloud if these owners are the same folks who don’t use the online system and therefore may not be aware of an upgraded reservation, so they don’t find out about their upgrade until they actually go to check-in at the resort?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Richelle]

You know, I’ve seen many people post online about how they were upgraded upon resort check-in. This never made sense to me as I’ve literally never received an upgrade upon check-in.

I had never connected the fact that there is a subset of owners who don’t use the website at all who are VIP and receive automatic upgrades. I wonder aloud if these owners are the same folks who don’t use the online system and therefore may not be aware of an upgraded reservation, so they don’t find out about their upgrade until they actually go to check-in at the resort?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I wonder how many of them don't realize they bought enough to be VIP.

 

[erniecrews]

You know, I’ve seen many people post online about how they were upgraded upon resort check-in. This never made sense to me as I’ve literally never received an upgrade upon check-in.

I had never connected the fact that there is a subset of owners who don’t use the website at all who are VIP and receive automatic upgrades. I wonder aloud if these owners are the same folks who don’t use the online system and therefore may not be aware of an upgraded reservation, so they don’t find out about their upgrade until they actually go to check-in at the resort?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I have received many upgrades at checkin even after being upgraded via the web. I have also been turned down a lot. You have to ask. I know how the system works. Once recently I had already been upgraded to a 2 bdrm deluxe from a 1 bdrm, at checkin I asked if they had anything better and they gave me a 3 bdrm pres.

 

[CO skier]

As far as them selling to some sorry sap for $30k, it's up to the buyer to be informed and protect themselves.

That is exactly the point of my cost analysis posts. Don't be a sorry sap; be informed and buy resale to save thousands or tens of thousands.

 

[HitchHiker71]

I have received many upgrades at checkin even after being upgraded via the web. I have also been turned down a lot. You have to ask. I know how the system works. Once recently I had already been upgraded to a 2 bdrm deluxe from a 1 bdrm, at checkin I asked if they had anything better and they gave me a 3 bdrm pres.

Thanks for this information. Ask and we shall receive eh? I will definitely start asking, worst they can say is no right? I'm assuming when you make these asks, you don't ever get charged for the additional points associated with the upgrade at check-in?

 

[dgalati]

Thanks for this information. Ask and we shall receive eh? I will definitely start asking, worst they can say is no right? I'm assuming when you make these asks, you don't ever get charged for the additional points associated with the upgrade at check-in?

When I have asked for a room upgrade and there was availability slipping them a Jackson has never failed me.

 

[erniecrews]

Thanks for this information. Ask and we shall receive eh? I will definitely start asking, worst they can say is no right? I'm assuming when you make these asks, you don't ever get charged for the additional points associated with the upgrade at check-in?

No never have, It pays to be pleasant