[2016] Account review email [Accts. suspended]

[ronparise]

Robert,

What are you suggesting if not a public confrontation? You suggest that we attend the annual meeting to raise our issues directly that sounds like a confrontation to me

We can't have it both ways.... we can't raise our issues at the meeting without a public confrontation

 

[ecwinch]

Do not believe in public confrontations. The main point is people do not have to go to Orlando, they can join in on-line.

Pretty sure it will be like the WM annual meetings, that you will only be able to view the presentations that are given and not interact.

 

[rickandcindy23]

So this is the month, the month of Voyager upgrades, and of course they have been saying for years that all members who have Plat and Gold and Silver without buying developer will no longer be able to book with discounts. And if you have an account with a combination of resale and developer points, the resale points will be distinguished in your account and won't be able to book at point discounts and upgrades.

As I said, they have been saying it for years.

 

[whitewater]

So this is the month, the month of Voyager upgrades, and of course they have been saying for years that all members who have Plat and Gold and Silver without buying developer will no longer be able to book with discounts. And if you have an account with a combination of resale and developer points, the resale points will be distinguished in your account and won't be able to book at point discounts and upgrades.

As I said, they have been saying it for years.

what do you know that confirms this? We know its coming - interested in what additional information that confirms this is going into effect.

 

[ronparise]

So this is the month, the month of Voyager upgrades, and of course they have been saying for years that all members who have Plat and Gold and Silver without buying developer will no longer be able to book with discounts. And if you have an account with a combination of resale and developer points, the resale points will be distinguished in your account and won't be able to book at point discounts and upgrades.

As I said, they have been saying it for years.

No they haven't been saying it for years, we have

 

[Avislo]

what do you know that confirms this? We know its coming - interested in what additional information that confirms this is going into effect.

For the role out of the Website, the CEO Quarterly Update is the last that I have heard from the Chief Boss in Charge. It talked in terms later this spring for the implementation date for the Website. As for the Balance of Voyager that has not already been implemented and/or what sales has said by report or otherwise, is just that and nothing more at this point.

 

[rickandcindy23]

No they haven't been saying it for years, we have

Yep, the salespeople at Wyndham Bali Hai have been saying it for at least 8 years. Those are the only salespeople with whom I have had any experience. They love to say it.

 

[wjappraise]

Yep, the salespeople at Wyndham Bali Hai have been saying it for at least 8 years. Those are the only salespeople with whom I have had any experience. They love to say it.

So have the sales people at Royal Vista. Also since eight years ago per my experience.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[Happy Hopian]

No they haven't been saying it for years, we have

Ron I know for a fact I was told about voyager at both an annual meeting in 2014 or 15 (I can't remember which) and owner update at least three times - with the name voyager. They just keep pushing it forward. I thought I remembered you saying it was mentioned to you as well years back but I could be wrong.

 

[ronparise]

Ron I know for a fact I was told about voyager at both an annual meeting in 2014 or 15 (I can't remember which) and owner update at least three times - with the name voyager. They just keep pushing it forward. I thought I remembered you saying it was mentioned to you as well years back but I could be wrong.

Yes voyager has been talked about for years by more than just the sales people. Geoff Richards talked about it for a couple of years at the annual meeting(Geoff is the chief trustee of the trust) Last year he promised it by the next meeting. I think because they couldn't meet that deadline the meeting date this year was changed from May to August

What I thought we were talking about was the expectation that the end of the cancel and rebook trick would be part of Voyager. We have been speculating that they might deny VIP benefits to resale points in a VIP account or that there might be a waiting list or something else to deny cancel and rebook, included in the voyager rollout. I haven't heard that as part of any sales presentation; only as speculation here.

There is a new Wyndham owners Facebook group (it might not be new, but it's new to me). Someone there posted that he was told that voyager would include a new checkbox in the reservations process for VIP owners ... "check here if you would like an automatic unit upgrade if one becomes available"

This would effectively put an end to the cancel rebook trick because my cancellation would become someone else's automatic upgrade

I hadn't heard that in any sales presentation neither have I heard it discussed as a possibility here on TUG But the guy on Facebook has. And it makes a lot of sense to me

The loophole is that a studio can't be an upgrade for anyone so if this was to happen studios (and one bedrooms in the resorts that don't have studios) would become the preferred unit to reserve for rentals

 

[Avislo]

Yes voyager has been talked about for years by more than just the sales people. Geoff Richards talked about it for a couple of years at the annual meeting(Geoff is the chief trustee of the trust) Last year he promised it by the next meeting. I think because they couldn't meet that deadline the meeting date this year was changed from May to August

What I thought we were talking about was the expectation that the end of the cancel and rebook trick would be part of Voyager. We have been speculating that they might deny VIP benefits to resale points in a VIP account or that there might be a waiting list or something else to deny cancel and rebook, included in the voyager rollout. I haven't heard that as part of any sales presentation; only as speculation here.

There is a new Wyndham owners Facebook group (it might not be new, but it's new to me). Someone there posted that he was told that voyager would include a new checkbox in the reservations process for VIP owners ... "check here if you would like an automatic unit upgrade if one becomes available"

This would effectively put an end to the cancel rebook trick because my cancellation would become someone else's automatic upgrade

I hadn't heard that in any sales presentation neither have I heard it discussed as a possibility here on TUG But the guy on Facebook has. And it makes a lot of sense to me

The loophole is that a studio can't be an upgrade for anyone so if this was to happen studios (and one bedrooms in the resorts that don't have studios) would become the preferred unit to reserve for rentals

A number of themes have been the subject of speculation over the years, some come true, most are speculation, some are driven by desires to undermine Wyndham and/or it's product lines/sales efforts to take or get their sales and/or rentals that may otherwise go to them, some themes designed get competitive advantage over other renters, mistaken beliefs on where things are going, etc. Last heard, relatively recently from Corporate Wyndham, was the VIP benefits stay with the account (during the time frame where the new website was being rolled out). Last heard from a semi-reliable attendee of a Owners Meeting of the Fairfield Trust was that a Waitlist was not part of the current Voyager roll-out. The automatic upgrade by clicking a box during the reservation process is a interesting thought, but not sure how much real impact it would have on anyone other than mega-renters, other than clipping of the wings of some mega-renters and creating more opportunities for non-mega renters to get reservations at high demand resorts during high demand time frames. Most mega-renters probably would not be affected at all.

The most significant effect would be to reduce traffic on the website by people constantly going on-line in search of a upgrade.

 

[ronparise]

A wait list or the auto upgrade check box will effectively end the cancel rebook trick because my cancellation will because your upgrade. And an end to cancel and rebook will mean that the megarenters won't get their discounts and renting won't be nearly as profitable without discounts. And without profits the number of rentals will go way down. (At least that's what I think)

But if this happens it won't be only renters that will be be hurt. There are a lot of VIP owners that don't rent but that do use the cancel rebook upgrade trick in exactly the same way the megarenters do. A waiting list or a waiting list for upgrades (the check box) will cut the purchasing power of their points in half too. They won't like that and that will be a problem for Wyndham

im convinced more than ever that they will find something that goes after the mega renters but leaves the individual owner alone

i have decided to quit guessing and wait. We will know in just a few months and that's when I'll begin my work to uncover loopholes

 

[Happy Hopian]

Yes voyager has been talked about for years by more than just the sales people. Geoff Richards talked about it for a couple of years at the annual meeting(Geoff is the chief trustee of the trust) Last year he promised it by the next meeting. I think because they couldn't meet that deadline the meeting date this year was changed from May to August

What I thought we were talking about was the expectation that the end of the cancel and rebook trick would be part of Voyager. We have been speculating that they might deny VIP benefits to resale points in a VIP account or that there might be a waiting list or something else to deny cancel and rebook, included in the voyager rollout. I haven't heard that as part of any sales presentation; only as speculation here.

There is a new Wyndham owners Facebook group (it might not be new, but it's new to me). Someone there posted that he was told that voyager would include a new checkbox in the reservations process for VIP owners ... "check here if you would like an automatic unit upgrade if one becomes available"

This would effectively put an end to the cancel rebook trick because my cancellation would become someone else's automatic upgrade

I hadn't heard that in any sales presentation neither have I heard it discussed as a possibility here on TUG But the guy on Facebook has. And it makes a lot of sense to me

The loophole is that a studio can't be an upgrade for anyone so if this was to happen studios (and one bedrooms in the resorts that don't have studios) would become the preferred unit to reserve for rentals

Not that I consider the Wyndham programmers to be smart, but tell me how i am going to cancel my three nights to get two inside the window? IF I need eight nights or if I can only do friday and saturday (which splits check -ins). There are so many side effects to the waiting list concept with anything automatic. I just don't see how wyndham can implement it without a total revolution all the way down to the 100k point accounts. I'm not going to worry about it because I don't think they are going to make any significant changes in concept. They are making so much money right now and their business is NOT about making owners happy (seriously I know you are shocked considering how the generally treat owners) but in fact they make money on SALES. Also inventory is NOT a problem with ovation, as we have discussed. They are now reselling developer inventory 2x,3x times going forward.

 

[Happy Hopian]

A wait list or the auto upgrade check box will effectively end the cancel rebook trick because my cancellation will because your upgrade. And an end to cancel and rebook will mean that the megarenters won't get their discounts and renting won't be nearly as profitable without discounts. And without profits the number of rentals will go way down. (At least that's what I think)

But if this happens it won't be only renters that will be be hurt. There are a lot of VIP owners that don't rent but that do use the cancel rebook upgrade trick in exactly the same way the megarenters do. A waiting list or a waiting list for upgrades (the check box) will cut the purchasing power of their points in half too. They won't like that and that will be a problem for Wyndham

im convinced more than ever that they will find something that goes after the mega renters but leaves the individual owner alone

i have decided to quit guessing and wait. We will know in just a few months and that's when I'll begin my work to uncover loopholes

Ron I know we are speculating here and we could be handicapping NCAAF instead but help me here. Your cancellation becomes robert's upgrade. So when you need to move your check in on a 7 night stay from Friday to Saturday four weeks out do you think wyndham will allow a situation where you can lose the entire reservation? Because of the structure of the weeks and contracts Wyndham does not allow a reservation to be 'edited'. The only way to change or edit ANY reservation is to cancel and ...wait for it...'rebook'. Outside of another speculation that we can now 'edit' reservations in this fancy new system I'm interested in your take on the upside/downside to wyndham on the unintended consequences of all this 'beat out the trickersters."

Again - VIP upgrades are not killing inventory. Mega renters who are holding up 50% or more of inventory in high value locations is what kills inventory. I think most people here agree on this. The thought seems to be that killing the C/R/Upgrade will impact the mega's margins and slow/stop them wil free up inventory for more owners. Therefore Wyndham has to do this...that being said I do not think Wyndham has any intentions of killing off the renters as they are providing a heck of a free lead generation sales promotion business and whatever 'cost' might be associated is less than what it will cost for Wyndham to recruit.

I agree with your statement above - we have all created this out of fear and conspiracy but everyone enjoys a good mystery so lets hope Wyndham does all of this with some fanfare and panash to give us our money's worth

 

[Avislo]

A wait list or the auto upgrade check box will effectively end the cancel rebook trick because my cancellation will because your upgrade. And an end to cancel and rebook will mean that the megarenters won't get their discounts and renting won't be nearly as profitable without discounts. And without profits the number of rentals will go way down. (At least that's what I think)

But if this happens it won't be only renters that will be be hurt. There are a lot of VIP owners that don't rent but that do use the cancel rebook upgrade trick in exactly the same way the megarenters do. A waiting list or a waiting list for upgrades (the check box) will cut the purchasing power of their points in half too. They won't like that and that will be a problem for Wyndham

im convinced more than ever that they will find something that goes after the mega renters but leaves the individual owner alone

i have decided to quit guessing and wait. We will know in just a few months and that's when I'll begin my work to uncover loopholes

For people that chose to uncover loopholes in the new system and for people who's accounts are under their control, standby for another round of account suspensions.

 

[comicbookman]

For people that chose to uncover loopholes in the new system and for people who's accounts are under their control, standby for another round of account suspensions.

Why wouldn't my account be under my control? And why would that result in suspension? As for loopholes, I doubt WYndham will suspend the salespeople.

 

[ronparise]

Ron I know we are speculating here and we could be handicapping NCAAF instead but help me here. Your cancellation becomes robert's upgrade. So when you need to move your check in on a 7 night stay from Friday to Saturday four weeks out do you think wyndham will allow a situation where you can lose the entire reservation? Because of the structure of the weeks and contracts Wyndham does not allow a reservation to be 'edited'. The only way to change or edit ANY reservation is to cancel and ...wait for it...'rebook'. Outside of another speculation that we can now 'edit' reservations in this fancy new system I'm interested in your take on the upside/downside to wyndham on the unintended consequences of all this 'beat out the trickersters."

Again - VIP upgrades are not killing inventory. Mega renters who are holding up 50% or more of inventory in high value locations is what kills inventory. I think most people here agree on this. The thought seems to be that killing the C/R/Upgrade will impact the mega's margins and slow/stop them wil free up inventory for more owners. Therefore Wyndham has to do this...that being said I do not think Wyndham has any intentions of killing off the renters as they are providing a heck of a free lead generation sales promotion business and whatever 'cost' might be associated is less than what it will cost for Wyndham to recruit.

I agree with your statement above - we have all created this out of fear and conspiracy but everyone enjoys a good mystery so lets hope Wyndham does all of this with some fanfare and panash to give us our money's worth

regarding rebooking to "trim" or "edit" a reservation; If something is done to prevent cancelling and rebooking to get a discount on all your reservations, you wont be able to edit your way around the rules. The rules are quite clear. Reservations in prime season must be 3, 4, or 7 days and check in or check out must be on Friday (or Fri Sat or Sunday, depending on the resort)

I think whatever happens will be presented in a positive way. They wont say "we have made changes to stop mega renting" (negative) . Rather they will say "we have introduced the following changes to enhance your ownership. We have created a waiting list, or we have made VIP upgrades automatic. You wont have to sit on the computer all day clicking away trying to find a reservation or upgrade. If one becomes available you will get it automatically" (positive)

If I was in charge I would change nothing except to follow the existing guidelines that limit VIP benefits to developer purchased points. This would leave things the same for VIPs that purchased all their points from Wyndham but for folks like me with just a few developer purchased points and a ton of resale points in my VIP account, life would change dramatically...

 

[Happy Hopian]

regarding rebooking to "trim" or "edit" a reservation; If something is done to prevent cancelling and rebooking to get a discount on all your reservations, you wont be able to edit your way around the rules. The rules are quite clear. Reservations in prime season must be 3, 4, or 7 days and check in or check out must be on Friday (or Fri Sat or Sunday, depending on the resort)

I think whatever happens will be presented in a positive way. They wont say "we have made changes to stop mega renting" (negative) . Rather they will say "we have introduced the following changes to enhance your ownership. We have created a waiting list, or we have made VIP upgrades automatic. You wont have to sit on the computer all day clicking away trying to find a reservation or upgrade. If one becomes available you will get it automatically" (positive)

If I was in charge I would change nothing except to follow the existing guidelines that limit VIP benefits to developer purchased points. This would leave things the same for VIPs that purchased all their points from Wyndham but for folks like me with just a few developer purchased points and a ton of resale points in my VIP account, life would change dramatically...

None of this impacts the big world (but it does drop the after market resale value). The greater concern is the continue talk that cancelations will go to service a waiting list. On dozens of occasions I have had to book a set reservation and had the agent tell me to call back at 60 days to cancel and change the dates, arrival or cancel a portion because of the 3/4/7 rule which I am very familiar with. This is not a violation of the rules, it is in fact how they want the system to operate so that people are not shredding a week 10 months out when others might use that time.

Without the distraction of the details, my only concern here is that any cancellation renders the unit gone to someone on a waiting list. If this is done to prevent cancel / rebook that will have serious secondary impacts on people who are not interested in a discount but rather needing to edit or revise arrivals or number of days. I think this could be solved MUCH easier by simply denying any discount on unit booked at same resort in which a cancellation happen within xx hours of cancellation.

IF Wyndham thinks this is a problem. I don't think they care. I think they love the fact that VIP owners who have ponied up hundreds of thousands to get benefits are using them, and then brag about them to others and generate demand and interest by others who want that ability. Take that away and everyone will be satisfied with their points and will in fact just buy resale without VIP because the benefits won't be there.

I go back to what I said before. Other than the points being out of audit as a result of programming errors I don't see how Wyndham can justify anything. They are making money. They are generating lots of leads and new sales and there is no revolution going on. In fact the last two meetings i've been to have been MUCH less contentious than they were around 2011.

 

[OutSkiing]

... he was told that voyager would include a new checkbox in the reservations process for VIP owners ... "check here if you would like an automatic unit upgrade if one becomes available"

This would effectively put an end to the cancel rebook trick because my cancellation would become someone else's automatic upgrade.

By making it optional, it at least gets over the most obvious problem that automatic upgrades could cause .. an upgrade could sometimes take you from a nice 1 br ocean view to a 2 br parking lot view.

This approach would allow Wyndham to apply an 'algorithm' to choose who gets the canceled unit (like we really trust Wyndham with algorithms!) .. They could not only pick the oldest reservations but could also pick upgrades that would bump the reservation the least (ie studio -> 1br or 1br -> 2br) and leave 'double / triple / quadruple' bumps as last resort if no shorter bumps were possible at the time.

A wait list could be part of the algorithm of who gets the canceled units .. spreading some goodness around to more owners. Those would tend to be smaller units freeing up.

I think this would have a drastically negative effect on all the 'smaller' VIP owners who are used to being able to have more control and achieve triple bumps.

Without a waiting list, wouldn't the bottom rung studios / 1 bedrooms freed up by upgrades become available for anyone to snatch up? VIP owners could still get those at the discount rate.

The more I think about it, seems like a lot of effort to just shift problems around and literally impact most everyone involved.

Better to just limit VIP upgrade / discount benefits to the developer purchased contracts rather than all the contracts in a VIP account.

Bob

 

[ronparise]

By making it optional, it at least gets over the most obvious problem that automatic upgrades could cause .. an upgrade could sometimes take you from a nice 1 br ocean view to a 2 br parking lot view.

This approach would allow Wyndham to apply an 'algorithm' to choose who gets the canceled unit (like we really trust Wyndham with algorithms!) .. They could not only pick the oldest reservations but could also pick upgrades that would bump the reservation the least (ie studio -> 1br or 1br -> 2br) and leave 'double / triple / quadruple' bumps as last resort if no shorter bumps were possible at the time.

A wait list could be part of the algorithm of who gets the canceled units .. spreading some goodness around to more owners. Those would tend to be smaller units freeing up.

I think this would have a drastically negative effect on all the 'smaller' VIP owners who are used to being able to have more control and achieve triple bumps.

Without a waiting list, wouldn't the bottom rung studios / 1 bedrooms freed up by upgrades become available for anyone to snatch up? VIP owners could still get those at the discount rate.

The more I think about it, seems like a lot of effort to just shift problems around and literally impact most everyone involved.

Better to just limit VIP upgrade / discount benefits to the developer purchased contracts rather than all the contracts in a VIP account.

Bob

You are assuming that there will upgrades happening

My thought is that if folks know that their cancellation will be someone else's upgrade, they won't cancel.

 

[paxsarah]

You are assuming that there will upgrades happening

My thought is that if folks know that their cancellation will be someone else's upgrade, they won't cancel.

Exactly. I mean, they'll cancel if they change their plans (as anyone would), so there would be a handful, but they won't cancel in the hopes of a discount. The total number of cancellations would be much lower than it is now.

 

[Happy Hopian]

Exactly. I mean, they'll cancel if they change their plans (as anyone would), so there would be a handful, but they won't cancel in the hopes of a discount. The total number of cancellations would be much lower than it is now.

But Contrar, I think the total number of bookings will go down, as will the number of rentals, as will the number of leads, potential new buyers, time share sales.... Just remember this Wyndham's profitable business is to sell time shares, not manage property <--- that is a cost center

I still don't think this is all going to roll out when someone up the chain realizes what this will do to their true profits. IMHO

 

[vacationhopeful]

So, our collective wisdom is:
Cancellations to rebook so a VIP owner uses LESS points will not happen ... as MOST cancelled reservations could be someone else's VIP upgrade? Unless it is the lowest size unit in the building/resort?

And automatic upgrade could be done by some computer selection process ... like VIP level, date of booking reservation (earliest is first), upgrades giving to select member number (who brought POINTS last from Wyndham, who brought MOST points from Wyndham, who NEVER cancelled a direct brought contact from Wyndham, who is on a Discovery membership, Wyndham to snag upgrades for their rentals FIRST, etc).

The old system is now looking more fair ... the owner must personally and manually do the upgrade. LUCK is just that. Manual actions like the "cancel & rebook" do carry a risk for the original owner ... as most TUG members who do this sometimes, have learned. It I WANT or NEED a particular HIGH SEASON week, I don't play ... I could lose it and some savings are NOT worth the risk. (As for the topic of BOTS, that is a major security issue Wyndham must prevent .. IMHO).

BUT Wyndham still will most likely change over to an automated system ... the wait list idea, but will most likely have 'chits' to give more value to SOME users. Why some? Upgrading is a marketing function (and they DO pay for upgrades) and that will be PROGRAMMED to benefit who is buying .. like the "Discovery" program buyers.

And I know very well, I will NOT work to get a points discount on a reservation I used ARP points to book ... as I will be the loser. It has become more likely I will lose.. but if I am wishy-washy on a reservation, I will gamble on getting a points discount.

 

[vacationhopeful]

But Contrar, I think the total number of bookings will go down, as will the number of rentals, as will the number of leads, potential new buyers, time share sales.... Just remember this Wyndham's profitable business is to sell time shares, not manage property <--- that is a cost center

I still don't think this is all going to roll out when someone up the chain realizes what this will do to their true profits. IMHO

How is Wyndham converting (mega-renter) guests who are renting off the private market into buyers? These renters are experienced ... know it cost them less money to rent, it is WAY LESS fight to get into the resort. and less planning. No commitment of large sums of money or time. And they BRAG around the TIKI bars and in the pool ... just ask other guests the next time you are at a resort, like Bonnet Creek.

 

[ronparise]

Exactly. I mean, they'll cancel if they change their plans (as anyone would), so there would be a handful, but they won't cancel in the hopes of a discount. The total number of cancellations would be much lower than it is now.

VIP owners that have been operating with the expectation of 50% discounts on everything they do, must be asking themselves: what will I do if any of the things we have been talking about come to be; what if I can't get discounted reservations anymore?


The obvious answer would be to accept the change and be happy for the opportunity to pay a fair price for our vacation accommodations. But one could change the way they vacation and use their Wyndham points only for reservations made inside 60 days

For myself, my wife and I won't be staying in a 3 bedroom at Reunion Christmas week, rather we will opt for a one bedroom at Bonnet Creek the week before Christmas and hope that this value season reservation will be available inside 60 days

As far as the advice I give wannabe mega renters. My advice will be to concentrate on the really high demand reservations where you can charge a big price and make a profit without a discount.

With a little luck all this planning won't be needed. But here's another piece of advice. Hope for the best but plan for the worst.