Pretty sure I know why college is so expensive!

[WinniWoman]

1. K12 teacher - $30,000 - $60,000 with BA or MA
2. College professor - $50,000 - $300,000 career trajectory with *D.
3. Finance major - $80,000 - $400,000+ career trajectory with BS. MBA a bonus early in career.

Many cultures outside ours hold teaching to be a highly esteemed profession. Our students don't respect professional teachers here, because our culture puts them below many occupations that are much easier to enter. And pay better. And many of us don't teach our kids to respect teachers and their authority.

Really good professors can do pretty well. However, business majors with the same smarts, work ethic and political sense can do much better.

I am not understanding. The above numbers look just fine to me. Don't forget the benefits. As far as I have been reading, there are tons of business majors out of work right now.

 

[WinniWoman]

If you know a $100K gym teacher, you should definitely jump on that career.

And the thing that people don't get is that even when a teacher has 2 months off, they have to do pro development and pre-school-year meetings that break up the summer.

2 months! No offense- I love teachers- but they also have a month+ (in universities; 2 weeks the high/elementary schools) around the holidays and they have spring break week and a zillion holidays off.

 

[WinniWoman]

DS graduated last year with an engineering degree and he cannot afford to live anywhere without a bevy of roommates. He and many of his schoolmates have found that new engineers are making less now than new engineers in previous years. Still a nice starting salary but not enough to live on by himself, and luckily he has no college debt./QUOTE]

If he can move to a no income tax state and make the same money, he can do it. My son is living on $13 per hour in NH with no room mates. True- not a good situation, but he survives. No debt - yet. Can't save. though.

Anyway-with an engineering salary- your son would be living well. in one of these states with no income tax.

 

[FLDVCFamily]

We have 8 open positions (professional, high-paying w/ good benefits) in my Dept that continue to be unfilled year after year - Why? Lack of graduates with scientific/technical education. Why? Because it is friggin' hard...

People may have issue with others where English is not their 1st language - problem is that is where the talent resides because those cultures (being bashed here for lack of English skills) expect and enforce education. Our issue is lack of available work visas - we would be happy to take those (and do) that do not speak English as their 1st language that apparently are not up to certain peoples standards. These hard-working, educated people are in those positions in the 1st place because of their education and sacrifice, and the lack of internal (USA) talent because too many want the easy way out.

The TAs that I had in engineering school were primarily from China. They 1) did not speak one word of English 2) "taught" classes unassisted despite not speaking a word of English and 3) either did not understand the subject matter at hand or else had no way of conveying that understanding/lack thereof in English. That is ridiculous.

I never had an issue with foreign-born engineering PROFESSORS who spoke English with an accent. Those were fine...preferable even. My favorite professor was Russian, and he was just awesome. He was probably the only one who truly loved teaching and didn't see it as a burden that got in the way of outside consulting. The non-English speaking TAs imported because they were cheap labor though? Awful

 

[FLDVCFamily]

DS graduated last year with an engineering degree and he cannot afford to live anywhere without a bevy of roommates. He and many of his schoolmates have found that new engineers are making less now than new engineers in previous years. Still a nice starting salary but not enough to live on by himself, and luckily he has no college debt./QUOTE]

If he can move to a no income tax state and make the same money, he can do it. My son is living on $13 per hour in NH with no room mates. True- not a good situation, but he survives. No debt - yet. Can't save. though.

Anyway-with an engineering salary- your son would be living well. in one of these states with no income tax.

Living in a no-tax state (FL) as an engineer, I have to agree with you. The engineering salaries here are comperable to other areas, but no tax and a lower cost of living have engineers living well here.

That said, I agree that in a lot of areas young engineers aren't doing as well as we did when we got out of school and that is sad. The good news is that engineers usually move up the payscale quickly, particularly if they jump jobs.

 

[ondeadlin]

The biggest reason college is expensive is simple: It's so easy to get federally subsidized and backed student loans.

I went back to law school in my late 30s and was fortunate enough to have a full scholarship and my spouse covering our household expenses, i.e. I did not need loans. But I watched as my 20-something classmates used the federal student loan program like an ATM. They not only used it for all tuition and fees, but for living expenses like a car, an apartment without roommates, and any other expense they wanted covered.

The colleges know how easy it is to get loan money, so they keep raising tuition. The students just think this is how the system works, so they take out more loans.

I guarantee you that if the federal student loan program were reformed so that the available loan money would gradually decrease, that over time tuition would come down too.

The lavish dorms and facilities are as much a result of the high tuition IMO, not the cause of it. The colleges are swimming in money, so they spend it.

 

[FLDVCFamily]

DS graduated last year with an engineering degree and he cannot afford to live anywhere without a bevy of roommates. He and many of his schoolmates have found that new engineers are making less now than new engineers in previous years. Still a nice starting salary but not enough to live on by himself, and luckily he has no college debt.

While he was at school the school finished building a large amount of suites on campus. Second year and up students would have a nicer place to stay than in the dorms, which would then be intended for freshman. The new suites cost more than the dorms, and did not include a meal plan, since they had kitchens. Many students instead chose the nearby apartments or grouped together to rent houses. So the school opened the suites to freshmen. Still couldn't fill the dorms and suites, so they made it mandatory, with a few exceptions, for freshmen to live on campus, and have a residency requirement to graduate. Somehow they are going to have to find a way to fill the pretty new buildings, since they built it and no one came. I am sure they will just build it into future tuition costs.

But what I find more interesting is that the schools are doing all this building to attract more students. But if you listen to high school counselors, or go to college recruiting fairs, they will say there are too many students applying and a large majority of the colleges will turn down most of the applicants. They encourage the students to apply to several colleges in hopes of getting admitted to even one. Each application has a processing fee, which is not returned if the student is not accepted or decides to attend another college. Seems no one can decide if there are too few or too many potential students.

Yes, exactly!!! That is what I was thinking...you hear all about how tough admissions are, how many applicants there are for each open spot, but then these schools are on overdrive building to "compete" for students Seems to me that they already get a surplus of qualified applicants, so what are they competing for...the ones who will pay full-freight without aid?

Wow, just wow on the suites that nobody wants to live in. I can totally see that though! The school that my kids are doing camp at this week has loads of new on-campus suite residences from the look of it, but also is surrounded by really nice off-campus, upscale apartments.

Yesterday when I picked the kids up my 9 year-old started telling me about how the tennis courts were going to be totally redone, the parking lot taken out, a conference building put in there so they could watch tennis videos if it rains (???), and I can't remember what else. She seemed quite excited about these upgrades to come, but all I could think of is how much that would cost and how that would bloat the tuition somehow.

 

[x3 skier]

I agree with these comments.
Campuses that look like a resort, bloated ranks of burocratic/administrative positions, diminishing class sizes are all components of tuition hikes..

But also, there are times when some young students have some responsibility in getting into an even worse financial situation. Such as choose to go to an out-of-state school over equally good (or better) but local colleges. Choose to move out of their parents home in favor of their own apartment. Choose to buy a late model car rather than use public transportation, Choose to take on education loans but don't look for a part-time or summer job, etc.

I agree completely.

Cheers

 

[Ty1on]

I am not understanding. The above numbers look just fine to me. Don't forget the benefits. As far as I have been reading, there are tons of business majors out of work right now.

Well I guess it's better to work for $30K with a required degree than be out of work from a $70K job for 6 months.

 

[WinniWoman]

Well I guess it's better to work for $30K with a required degree than be out of work from a $70K job for 6 months.[/QUOTE)

But I still don't get why our country is not producing employees with the skills needed for the available higher paying jobs.

 

[WinniWoman]

The biggest reason college is expensive is simple: It's so easy to get federally subsidized and backed student loans.

I went back to law school in my late 30s and was fortunate enough to have a full scholarship and my spouse covering our household expenses, i.e. I did not need loans. But I watched as my 20-something classmates used the federal student loan program like an ATM. They not only used it for all tuition and fees, but for living expenses like a car, an apartment without roommates, and any other expense they wanted covered.

The colleges know how easy it is to get loan money, so they keep raising tuition. The students just think this is how the system works, so they take out more loans.

I guarantee you that if the federal student loan program were reformed so that the available loan money would gradually decrease, that over time tuition would come down too.

The lavish dorms and facilities are as much a result of the high tuition IMO, not the cause of it. The colleges are swimming in money, so they spend it.

Dead on! This is very true!

 

[FLDVCFamily]

The biggest reason college is expensive is simple: It's so easy to get federally subsidized and backed student loans.

I went back to law school in my late 30s and was fortunate enough to have a full scholarship and my spouse covering our household expenses, i.e. I did not need loans. But I watched as my 20-something classmates used the federal student loan program like an ATM. They not only used it for all tuition and fees, but for living expenses like a car, an apartment without roommates, and any other expense they wanted covered.

The colleges know how easy it is to get loan money, so they keep raising tuition. The students just think this is how the system works, so they take out more loans.

I guarantee you that if the federal student loan program were reformed so that the available loan money would gradually decrease, that over time tuition would come down too.

The lavish dorms and facilities are as much a result of the high tuition IMO, not the cause of it. The colleges are swimming in money, so they spend it.

Yes to all of this!!!

And then we have a "crisis" of student loan borrowers who can't pay back all the money they borrowed when a lot of that money went to the living expenses as described in your post...absolutely spot-on.

ITA that colleges are swimming in money so they spend it too. Too bad they don't spend it reducing tuition, but then we are back to the easy to get loans so why should they...

 

[Tia]

Well I guess it's better to work for $30K with a required degree than be out of work from a $70K job for 6 months.[/QUOTE)

But I still don't get why our country is not producing employees with the skills needed for the available higher paying jobs.

Not sure but this might hold some of the answer The Cartel- A Film by Bob Bowdon - http://www.thecartelmovie.com/ a documentary on our education system

 

[DavidnRobin]

The TAs that I had in engineering school were primarily from China. They 1) did not speak one word of English 2) "taught" classes unassisted despite not speaking a word of English and 3) either did not understand the subject matter at hand or else had no way of conveying that understanding/lack thereof in English. That is ridiculous.

I never had an issue with foreign-born engineering PROFESSORS who spoke English with an accent. Those were fine...preferable even. My favorite professor was Russian, and he was just awesome. He was probably the only one who truly loved teaching and didn't see it as a burden that got in the way of outside consulting. The non-English speaking TAs imported because they were cheap labor though? Awful

That is one crappy education...
I know 100s of people from China/Asia in both industry and academics - heck, 1/2 of my Dept are from Asia (not born in US, English is 2nd language - all of them came thru university system here and abroad) - they learn English as part of their academics (mandatory) if they had any type of university (required). Some have heavy accents, some have mastered English - some convey technical topics well and some do not - just like everyone. Most know English better than many kids today - and certainly better educated.

 

[lizap]

A huge reason university costs are high is the ridiculously high salaries of professors and administrators at large research universities. It is common for university presidents at large research universities to make 3-500,000 and up. Some college professors at these universities make 200-300,000, teaching 1-2 classes per year, holding 3 office hours a week. Some say that the research they do justifies it; I don't agree. IMO, the real value, is at the regional universities. Tuition and other costs are lower; administrators and faculty generally earn reasonable salaries. In a number of areas, such as the health care field and some business fields, regional universities especially offer great value.

 

[DavidnRobin]

DavidnRobin- why do you think this is in our country? Are the parents not strict enough with the kids? Not enough discipline being enforced? Too much emphasis on liberal arts? It's such a shame- jobs are needed and yet no one qualified for the openings...

Sorry - I just got back to this thread (sadly...).
I am not a black/white person - this issue is multi-factorial. I was respond to the issue of the claim that one of the issues was 'non-English' peoples. If it wasn't for 'these people' (which are 'our people') coming to the US for better living conditions and education - our technology sector would really be in poor condition.

IMO - our society has become too soft on kids - but that is a generalized opinion as my Company (for example, but true at other Tech companies as well) has many kids of all colors and backgrounds (as long as they are educated and motivated) working on PhD programs and/or preparing for Med school. What do these kids seem to have in common (in my view)? They do not feel entitled, are very motivated, and willing to sacrifice themselves for their families.

 

[vacationhopeful]

Kids today do NOT have defined roles and chores .. if it is in the refrigerator, they eat it .. without regard to HOW it got there or WHY it is there .. like for dinner or a special guest. And how the yard gets mowed ... either a service mows the lawn or Dad does it. Want pizza - call for delivery; who pays, the credit card does.

Everything is FREE to a kid. Even money or its cash equivalent.. the credit card.

I had my 4 yo nephew for multiple summers ... my contractor and I take turns buying lunch. Period ... does not matter if it is a $22 lunch he buys and mine the next day is $16 .. over the months, it equals out. The first summer week he stayed, I told him Friday was payday ... and that would be HIS day to buy lunch. We ate at McDonalds off the $1 menu and HE paid. Proud little kid - but he learned lunch was NOT FREE and he worked to be part of the team ... he never over the 6 years questioned why we only ate at McD's on Friday ... he did not notice, our usual lunches were more expensive ... but HE knew HE HAD to buy ON his day.

Teach kids .. expect MORE of kids .. have rules for the kids to follow (but be sure you follow them, too) .. respect kids ..

And turn off the TV and the computer ... rule #1 when he stayed at my house ... no video games of any form; no internet for him; TV was what we both watched together for a very limited hour.

 

[bogey21]

The biggest reason college is expensive is simple: It's so easy to get federally subsidized and backed student loans......The colleges know how easy it is to get loan money, so they keep raising tuition. The students just think this is how the system works, so they take out more loans.

Same thing happens with the new GI Bill. When I got the GI Bill following the Korean War I received $125 per month. That was it. I had an incentive to shop for the best affordable school. When my Son got the GI Bill after his tour with the Marine Corps the Government paid his entire tuition, all his books, and gave him $1,600+ per month for living expenses. If students have access to more funding, the schools will find a way to spend it.

George

 

[FLDVCFamily]

That is one crappy education...
I know 100s of people from China/Asia in both industry and academics - heck, 1/2 of my Dept are from Asia (not born in US, English is 2nd language - all of them came thru university system here and abroad) - they learn English as part of their academics (mandatory) if they had any type of university (required). Some have heavy accents, some have mastered English - some convey technical topics well and some do not - just like everyone. Most know English better than many kids today - and certainly better educated.

Overall it was a fine education. Most of the TA-taught classes happened early on in the first 2 years, so the important classes were OK Jr. and Sr. year. The classes taught by Chinese TAs were incredibly crappy though. UGH, I can remember having office hours with one who literally could not understand a word my study partner and I were asking. Finally we just took the instructor manual from him so we could figure out what the heck we needed to do. It still makes me so mad! Luckily that one class actually had a professor that had some contact with students. He didn't seem any more pleased with being assigned that TA than we were at having to deal with him. I remember hearing that the Chinese TAs were there for free so the school had incentive to take them...not sure how true that was, but given that none of them spoke a word of English and none offered any real value as TAs, I sure hope the school wasn't paying them. Now I graduated back in 1995 so perhaps things have changed, but back then having a Chinese TA teaching a class and doing office hours was the equivalent of having to teach yourself 100% of the material at my school at least. My goodness, I'm surprised at how mad this still makes me 20 years later.

ETA - I really, really hope that colleges aren't still doing this to students. Your post gives me some hope that perhaps things have turned around in this regard in the past 20 years. I have no issue with foreign TAs if they speak English.

 

[FLDVCFamily]

Same thing happens with the new GI Bill. When I got the GI Bill following the Korean War I received $125 per month. That was it. I had an incentive to shop for the best affordable school. When my Son got the GI Bill after his tour with the Marine Corps the Government paid his entire tuition, all his books, and gave him $1,600+ per month for living expenses. If students have access to more funding, the schools will find a way to spend it.

George

So now the GI bill just pays tuition without a cap? Wow, more incentive for the schools to just charge whatever.

 

[Tia]

So now the GI bill just pays tuition without a cap? Wow, more incentive for the schools to just charge whatever.

Ya they milk a gravy train . They should have to explain repayment better to people esp risks.

 

[cgeidl]

Teaches three classes per week

My sister is a professor and teaches three different classes three times a week. About 9 hours total and makes good money. Seems to me that lectures are almost a complete waste of money. Video presentations by the best in the field for courses that could be viewed by anyone ,anywhere, are far more worthwhile with videos and charts.Why not use class instructors after students view the lectures for dialog ,questions, and arguing positions? College is way too expensive and instructors low workload is part of the equation.

 

[Janann]

Another reason that tuition can be high for the students who are paying full freight...at some schools there are kids who are on full ride or full tuition scholarships, because the school is willing to pay for students with high statistics. A high SAT or ACT score, with a 3.5+ GPA, will get automatic tuition and housing payments at many very good (but not spectacular) schools. These scholarships are not given out on a competitive basis...they are just according to a simple grid and basic qualifications. When my daughter applied to college a couple years ago, she had several full ride scholarships that were automatic. So the schools are willing to cover all costs for certain students, but for the rest they must pay full freight. The whole U.S. college system is very complex, and there isn't an easy answer on how to make it more equitable.

 

[lizap]

Generally I'm not an advocate of online courses. A course with an excellent teacher/professor is always best taught in class. Again, a lot of the problem is from these large research universities where GAs teach freshman and sophomore classes while professors teach 2-3 classes a year, making 200,000 and up.


QUOTE=cgeidl;1773050]My sister is a professor and teaches three different classes three times a week. About 9 hours total and makes good money. Seems to me that lectures are almost a complete waste of money. Video presentations by the best in the field for courses that could be viewed by anyone ,anywhere, are far more worthwhile with videos and charts.Why not use class instructors after students view the lectures for dialog ,questions, and arguing positions? College is way too expensive and instructors low workload is part of the equation.[/QUOTE]

 

[FLDVCFamily]

Generally I'm not an advocate of online courses. A course with an excellent teacher/professor is always best taught in class. Again, a lot of the problem is from these large research universities where GAs teach freshman and sophomore classes while professors teach 2-3 classes a year, making 200,000 and up.


QUOTE=cgeidl;1773050]My sister is a professor and teaches three different classes three times a week. About 9 hours total and makes good money. Seems to me that lectures are almost a complete waste of money. Video presentations by the best in the field for courses that could be viewed by anyone ,anywhere, are far more worthwhile with videos and charts.Why not use class instructors after students view the lectures for dialog ,questions, and arguing positions? College is way too expensive and instructors low workload is part of the equation.

[/QUOTE]

This happens even at smaller colleges and universities though. I went to a truly regional engineering school and it happened plenty at my school. My sister went to a big Ivy and it happened there. It's a pervasive problem.