Pretty sure I know why college is so expensive!

[FLDVCFamily]

My 2 kids are doing some sports camps at the local college, which is a regional engineering school. Now, I actually went to a regional engineering school and it was what I'd call normal-looking...this was in the 1990's. I got a good education there, and that was what really mattered right?

Well, my 9 year-old came home last week raving about the library (where they went to watch a safety video) and saying that she wanted to go to this school. I thought that was cute. Yesterday I dropped them off at the athletic center for a different camp and I almost keeled over. The athletic center is about the level of what you'd see at the nicest Marriott Vacation club, only much bigger. The dining hall is the same. There is a smoothie bar in the athletic center...a nice one. The entire parking lot is done in pavers! I could go on and on, but needless to say, this school looks like a resort. A few minutes of research showed me that MY regional engineering college has followed suit! My sis told me that there was an entire CNN documentary on this...colleges feeling like they have to go really upscale to "compete" (compete for what, I don't know, since admission to these schools is very competitive to begin with?!).

Anyways, all of this blew me away and made me wonder 1) is this really necessary 2) why not spend the endowment on reducing overall tuition and 3) what kind of disappointment are we setting students up for after college? Even with a reasonably good engineering starting salary I could not have afforded an apartment anything like the residence halls and campus apartments I saw while driving around the campus yesterday. Anyways, just my thoughts...I guess I've been living in a bubble because I didn't realize this trend towards making colleges look like resorts. No wonder college is so expensive and going up at a rate faster than inflation!

 

[Patri]

One explanation around here is that fewer students are going to college, so you have to make them want to come to yours.

 

[x3 skier]

If you want the real reasons, take a look at the explosion of the ratio of non-academic staff to the academic staff and the reduction in teaching load for that academic staff.

Buildings and grounds are a part of it but a lot of that comes from gifts and fund raising while the salaries and benefits are funded by tuition and fees. Not to mention the totally absurd cost of textbooks.

Cheers

 

[MichaelColey]

Colleges, hospitals, public schools, government buildings, etc.

 

[Ty1on]

My 2 kids are doing some sports camps at the local college, which is a regional engineering school. Now, I actually went to a regional engineering school and it was what I'd call normal-looking...this was in the 1990's. I got a good education there, and that was what really mattered right?

Well, my 9 year-old came home last week raving about the library (where they went to watch a safety video) and saying that she wanted to go to this school. I thought that was cute. Yesterday I dropped them off at the athletic center for a different camp and I almost keeled over. The athletic center is about the level of what you'd see at the nicest Marriott Vacation club, only much bigger. The dining hall is the same. There is a smoothie bar in the athletic center...a nice one. The entire parking lot is done in pavers! I could go on and on, but needless to say, this school looks like a resort. A few minutes of research showed me that MY regional engineering college has followed suit! My sis told me that there was an entire CNN documentary on this...colleges feeling like they have to go really upscale to "compete" (compete for what, I don't know, since admission to these schools is very competitive to begin with?!).

Anyways, all of this blew me away and made me wonder 1) is this really necessary 2) why not spend the endowment on reducing overall tuition and 3) what kind of disappointment are we setting students up for after college? Even with a reasonably good engineering starting salary I could not have afforded an apartment anything like the residence halls and campus apartments I saw while driving around the campus yesterday. Anyways, just my thoughts...I guess I've been living in a bubble because I didn't realize this trend towards making colleges look like resorts. No wonder college is so expensive and going up at a rate faster than inflation!

Certainly, they have to compete in terms of athletic facilities, but those are mostly funded by private donors. Good professors are demanding much higher salaries than they did when you went to school. That's the bigger difference. BTW not bagging on professors, I think they deserve it.

 

[Bunk]

I think you might be surprised to find out how little contact the students have with "good professors", especially during the first two years. The college faculty is bifurcated. The tenured professors have a really good life in terms of tenure, benefits, salary and a cap on the number of hours that they have to teach. The "grunt work", which basically consists of teaching undergraduates is dumped on adjuncts, who are independent contractors who get an unconscionably low sum for each course they teach, and get no benefits. Many have to teach at two or more colleges to make ends meet.

This goes on at most colleges, including the most prestigious colleges.

I know parents that are astounded because they are paying over $65K a year to send their children to prestigious colleges only to be taught by adjuncts.

 

[PamMo]

Student life has certainly changed from when I went to school!

www.usnews.com/news/college-of-tomo...schools-market-themselves-to-attract-students

Also from US News, a story on why college costs so much - it isn't professor salaries:

www.usnews.com/news/college-of-tomo...sts-so-much-overspending-on-faculty-amenities

 

[vacationhopeful]

..... The "grunt work", which basically consists of teaching undergraduates is dumped on adjuncts, who are independent contractors who get an unconscionably low sum for each course they teach, and get no benefits. Many have to teach at two or more colleges to make ends meet.

This goes on at most colleges, including the most prestigious colleges.

I know parents that are astounded because they are paying over $65K a year to send their children to prestigious colleges only to be taught by adjuncts.

I taught at a local junior college for 7+ years as an lowly paid adjunct ($24 per hour classroom time; no withholding) ... I was teaching the 2 most senior courses and did NOT have anything more than a BS degree. I worked in the field but my major had NOTHING to do with the material I was teaching ... I had some undergraduate courses in the general field from a different college (my junior year "abroad" courses).

So at $4000 per course (today's price) with 40 students is $160000 per class minus $2000-3000 teacher costs ==> profit is $157,000 per course.

Let's get a lower class number: 25 students is $100,000 - 3000 ==> profit is just $97,000 per course.

1000 courses per semester is $157,000,000 in funds for expenses MORE than the part time/independent contract instruction is getting.

Student loans, tuition reimbursements, Pell grants -- the money just RUNS into the college's bank account ... don't have to pass the class; don't have to be employed ever in the field; just have to be alive to sign the paperwork.

 

[WinniWoman]

If I had to do it all over again, I wouldn't have forced our son to go to college. Waste of money. Unless you are going to be a doctor or a professional in that type of category- it is a waste. Better to learn on the job or do trade school or a certificate program maybe- or on-line.

 

[WinniWoman]

My 2 kids are doing some sports camps at the local college, which is a regional engineering school. Now, I actually went to a regional engineering school and it was what I'd call normal-looking...this was in the 1990's. I got a good education there, and that was what really mattered right?

Well, my 9 year-old came home last week raving about the library (where they went to watch a safety video) and saying that she wanted to go to this school. I thought that was cute. Yesterday I dropped them off at the athletic center for a different camp and I almost keeled over. The athletic center is about the level of what you'd see at the nicest Marriott Vacation club, only much bigger. The dining hall is the same. There is a smoothie bar in the athletic center...a nice one. The entire parking lot is done in pavers! I could go on and on, but needless to say, this school looks like a resort. A few minutes of research showed me that MY regional engineering college has followed suit! My sis told me that there was an entire CNN documentary on this...colleges feeling like they have to go really upscale to "compete" (compete for what, I don't know, since admission to these schools is very competitive to begin with?!).

Anyways, all of this blew me away and made me wonder 1) is this really necessary 2) why not spend the endowment on reducing overall tuition and 3) what kind of disappointment are we setting students up for after college? Even with a reasonably good engineering starting salary I could not have afforded an apartment anything like the residence halls and campus apartments I saw while driving around the campus yesterday. Anyways, just my thoughts...I guess I've been living in a bubble because I didn't realize this trend towards making colleges look like resorts. No wonder college is so expensive and going up at a rate faster than inflation!)

Exactly my impression of our son's college.

 

[bogey21]

Where are the good old days? Back in the 60s I was paying $279 per quarter (3 quarters equaled 2 semesters). And the $279 included book rental. My GI Bill paid me $110 per month and along with part time work I made it. No student loans in those days either.

George

Note that many of my professors were business men moonlighting. Not only were they probably cheaper for the University, they were for the most part better than the tenured professors!

 

[PamMo]

If I had to do it all over again, I wouldn't have forced our son to go to college. Waste of money. Unless you are going to be a doctor or a professional in that type of category- it is a waste. Better to learn on the job or do trade school or a certificate program maybe- or on-line.

I wouldn't "force" anyone to go to college, either, but I certainly don't think college is a waste of money for anything other than a professional degree. I know a LOT of people, young and old, who are very happy and successful with their measly "non-professional" degrees. College is not for everyone, and it's certainly not a place to "park" when you don't know what else to do with your life.

 

[FLDVCFamily]

If I had to do it all over again, I wouldn't have forced our son to go to college. Waste of money. Unless you are going to be a doctor or a professional in that type of category- it is a waste. Better to learn on the job or do trade school or a certificate program maybe- or on-line.

In this case it's an engineering college, so definitely a necessary degree to work in the field...you aren't learning this on-the-job and you need the accredited engineering degree for a lot of reasons. That said, I don't recall my engineering education suffering for lack of resort-quality facilities lol. I seriously don't get it. Why not use the donations or endowments to reduce tuition somehow?

Also, I'm not sure about adjuncts...that may be a liberal-arts thing. In engineering school, the grunt classes were all taught by graduate student TAs, half of whom could not speak a lick of English. That's a whole 'nother story though. Maybe they use adjuncts even in engineering now, but I kinda doubt it since the subject matter is pretty specific. I don't recall having too many actual professors until I was at least in Jr. Year classes. Sadly, I remember maybe 2 really good professors, and one of them seemed to be far more interested in his paid consulting gigs outside of the school...

 

[Bunk]

Here are some of the way the college kids and their parents are getting screwed:

1. We've already discussed adjunct professors. (This is not a knock on adjunct professors. Most of them do this because they like to teach.)

2. Having teachers who speak English in an accent that can't be understood. This is a big problem in a lot of STEM subjects. And it's not just Asian. A lot of Eastern European and Middle Eastern/Israeli accents are also very hard to understand. It's kind of like going to a foreign movie where it takes you about 15 to 20 minutes to pick up the accent. But the college kids and their parents are paying a lot more than $10 for a ticket. In a lot of cases, it means that you have to learn the subject primarily by reading the book, and that class attendance is not that beneficial.

3. Being taught by TA's that really don't have a great grasp of the subject or the art of teaching.

4. Not being able to sign up for required courses. If you can't get the courses you need because there is no room for you, it means that you have to either go to summer school or another semester. Even more $ for the parents to pay. My daughter goes to a school that does not have a great athletic program. Because she is in the Honors College, she is supposed to have priority in terms of course selection. In fact, she has priority over everyone but the athletes, who get first choice of all the subjects.

Could it be worse? Absolutely. I think the unemployment rate for college graduates in countries like Spain is over 20%. Could it be better? Sure. If the politicians hold the colleges accountable instead of throwing money at them and the students with little consequences to the universities.

 

[WinniWoman]

I wouldn't "force" anyone to go to college, either, but I certainly don't think college is a waste of money for anything other than a professional degree. I know a LOT of people, young and old, who are very happy and successful with their measly "non-professional" degrees. College is not for everyone, and it's certainly not a place to "park" when you don't know what else to do with your life.

"Force" was too strong of a word for me to use. It was more like "push".
What I meant was- sure- if you can afford it great. But a lot of kids are in debt up to their eyeballs and the degrees they are going for won't pay off financially.

Me- I love learning just to learn and I would love to be in college right now for the love of learning! I have one of those measly degrees- journalism. Was inexpensive to earn many moons agol.

 

[WinniWoman]

Here are some of the way the college kids and their parents are getting screwed:

1. We've already discussed adjunct professors. (This is not a knock on adjunct professors. Most of them do this because they like to teach.)

2. Having teachers who speak English in an accent that can't be understood. This is a big problem in a lot of STEM subjects. And it's not just Asian. A lot of Eastern European and Middle Eastern/Israeli accents are also very hard to understand. It's kind of like going to a foreign movie where it takes you about 15 to 20 minutes to pick up the accent. But the college kids and their parents are paying a lot more than $10 for a ticket. In a lot of cases, it means that you have to learn the subject primarily by reading the book, and that class attendance is not that beneficial.

3. Being taught by TA's that really don't have a great grasp of the subject or the art of teaching.

4. Not being able to sign up for required courses. If you can't get the courses you need because there is no room for you, it means that you have to either go to summer school or another semester. Even more $ for the parents to pay. My daughter goes to a school that does not have a great athletic program. Because she is in the Honors College, she is supposed to have priority in terms of course selection. In fact, she has priority over everyone but the athletes, who get first choice of all the subjects.

Could it be worse? Absolutely. I think the unemployment rate for college graduates in countries like Spain is over 20%. Could it be better? Sure. If the politicians hold the colleges accountable instead of throwing money at them and the students with little consequences to the universities.

Excellent on all points. And- I remember when I was in college in the olden days, they would just slip a form under the door that you would use to register for the next semester. You would just check off what you were taking and drop it in a slot in the admin. bldg. That was it! Now- these poor kids have to wake up like at 3am to go on-line to try to get into the classes they need. Totally insane! These colleges should be held accountable. If required classes aren't available then your kid gets a free semester since it wasn't their fault they weren't available. Enough!

 

[FLDVCFamily]

Here are some of the way the college kids and their parents are getting screwed:

1. We've already discussed adjunct professors. (This is not a knock on adjunct professors. Most of them do this because they like to teach.)

2. Having teachers who speak English in an accent that can't be understood. This is a big problem in a lot of STEM subjects. And it's not just Asian. A lot of Eastern European and Middle Eastern/Israeli accents are also very hard to understand. It's kind of like going to a foreign movie where it takes you about 15 to 20 minutes to pick up the accent. But the college kids and their parents are paying a lot more than $10 for a ticket. In a lot of cases, it means that you have to learn the subject primarily by reading the book, and that class attendance is not that beneficial.

3. Being taught by TA's that really don't have a great grasp of the subject or the art of teaching.

4. Not being able to sign up for required courses. If you can't get the courses you need because there is no room for you, it means that you have to either go to summer school or another semester. Even more $ for the parents to pay. My daughter goes to a school that does not have a great athletic program. Because she is in the Honors College, she is supposed to have priority in terms of course selection. In fact, she has priority over everyone but the athletes, who get first choice of all the subjects.

Could it be worse? Absolutely. I think the unemployment rate for college graduates in countries like Spain is over 20%. Could it be better? Sure. If the politicians hold the colleges accountable instead of throwing money at them and the students with little consequences to the universities.

So right on!! We didn't have the issue with the courses not being available when I was in college, and I doubt that that is an issue even now where I went, but I can totally see it being a HUGE issue at bigger schools, in more general majors, etc.

The TAs not understanding the material and not speaking English is spot-on.

My cousin calls #4 a "money grab". His straight-A student son is having to do summer school to improve his standing in his major or something? He has straight-A's!! My cousin was like "total money-grab" and he's correct. The schools can get away with it because they know that the parents will pay for fear that little Johnny won't get his degree otherwise.

 

[DavidnRobin]

We have 8 open positions (professional, high-paying w/ good benefits) in my Dept that continue to be unfilled year after year - Why? Lack of graduates with scientific/technical education. Why? Because it is friggin' hard...

People may have issue with others where English is not their 1st language - problem is that is where the talent resides because those cultures (being bashed here for lack of English skills) expect and enforce education. Our issue is lack of available work visas - we would be happy to take those (and do) that do not speak English as their 1st language that apparently are not up to certain peoples standards. These hard-working, educated people are in those positions in the 1st place because of their education and sacrifice, and the lack of internal (USA) talent because too many want the easy way out.

 

[WinniWoman]

We have 8 open positions (professional, high-paying w/ good benefits) in my Dept that continue to be unfilled year after year - Why? Lack of graduates with scientific/technical education. Why? Because it is friggin' hard...

People may have issue with others where English is not their 1st language - problem is that is where the talent resides because those cultures (being bashed here for lack of English skills) expect and enforce education. Our issue is lack of available work visas - we would be happy to take those (and do) that do not speak English as their 1st language that apparently are not up to certain peoples standards. These hard-working, educated people are in those positions in the 1st place because of their education and sacrifice, and the lack of internal (USA) talent because too many want the easy way out.

DavidnRobin- why do you think this is in our country? Are the parents not strict enough with the kids? Not enough discipline being enforced? Too much emphasis on liberal arts? It's such a shame- jobs are needed and yet no one qualified for the openings...

 

[Ty1on]

DavidnRobin- why do you think this is in our country? Are the parents not strict enough with the kids? Not enough discipline being enforced? Too much emphasis on liberal arts? It's such a shame- jobs are needed and yet no one qualified for the openings...

1. K12 teacher - $30,000 - $60,000 with BA or MA
2. College professor - $50,000 - $300,000 career trajectory with *D.
3. Finance major - $80,000 - $400,000+ career trajectory with BS. MBA a bonus early in career.

Many cultures outside ours hold teaching to be a highly esteemed profession. Our students don't respect professional teachers here, because our culture puts them below many occupations that are much easier to enter. And pay better. And many of us don't teach our kids to respect teachers and their authority.

Really good professors can do pretty well. However, business majors with the same smarts, work ethic and political sense can do much better.

 

[am1]

1. K12 teacher - $30,000 - $60,000 with BA or MA
2. College professor - $50,000 - $300,000 career trajectory with *D.
3. Finance major - $80,000 - $400,000+ career trajectory with BS. MBA a bonus early in career.

Many cultures outside ours hold teaching to be a highly esteemed profession. Our students don't respect professional teachers here, because our culture puts them below many occupations that are much easier to enter. And pay better. And many of us don't teach our kids to respect teachers and their authority.

Really good professors can do pretty well. However, business majors with the same smarts, work ethic and political sense can do much better.

A $100k for 10 months to be a gym teacher plus what ever coaching pays, great benefits and pension, summers off is a pretty good gig.

 

[Tia]

Local college has been busy bldg and expanding for years now, bldg has been on steroids last few. Tuition doubled in three years recently according to dtr that is attending.

I paid $9/credit hour back in '74-'78 state college in Minn.

 

[Ty1on]

A $100k for 10 months to be a gym teacher plus what ever coaching pays, great benefits and pension, summers off is a pretty good gig.

If you know a $100K gym teacher, you should definitely jump on that career.

And the thing that people don't get is that even when a teacher has 2 months off, they have to do pro development and pre-school-year meetings that break up the summer.

 

[BJRSanDiego]

I agree with these comments.
Campuses that look like a resort, bloated ranks of burocratic/administrative positions, diminishing class sizes are all components of tuition hikes..

But also, there are times when some young students have some responsibility in getting into an even worse financial situation. Such as choose to go to an out-of-state school over equally good (or better) but local colleges. Choose to move out of their parents home in favor of their own apartment. Choose to buy a late model car rather than use public transportation, Choose to take on education loans but don't look for a part-time or summer job, etc.

 

[jlr10]

Even with a reasonably good engineering starting salary I could not have afforded an apartment anything like the residence halls and campus apartments I saw while driving around the campus yesterday.

DS graduated last year with an engineering degree and he cannot afford to live anywhere without a bevy of roommates. He and many of his schoolmates have found that new engineers are making less now than new engineers in previous years. Still a nice starting salary but not enough to live on by himself, and luckily he has no college debt.

While he was at school the school finished building a large amount of suites on campus. Second year and up students would have a nicer place to stay than in the dorms, which would then be intended for freshman. The new suites cost more than the dorms, and did not include a meal plan, since they had kitchens. Many students instead chose the nearby apartments or grouped together to rent houses. So the school opened the suites to freshmen. Still couldn't fill the dorms and suites, so they made it mandatory, with a few exceptions, for freshmen to live on campus, and have a residency requirement to graduate. Somehow they are going to have to find a way to fill the pretty new buildings, since they built it and no one came. I am sure they will just build it into future tuition costs.

But what I find more interesting is that the schools are doing all this building to attract more students. But if you listen to high school counselors, or go to college recruiting fairs, they will say there are too many students applying and a large majority of the colleges will turn down most of the applicants. They encourage the students to apply to several colleges in hopes of getting admitted to even one. Each application has a processing fee, which is not returned if the student is not accepted or decides to attend another college. Seems no one can decide if there are too few or too many potential students.