Can trust owners resell their points?

[Clemson Fan]

I used to be a regular follower and contributor to this board and somewhat of a self proclaimed Marriott expert, but admittedly since Marriott changed their system to the DC points I've lost interest with all the new complexities. I did enroll my 4 weeks and I'm a premier plus member and the new points system has worked for me by making renting so much more easier and hassle free. Sure I made a little bit more reserving Sundance week in Park City and renting it out, but it's so much more easier just renting/transferring the points that it's not worth the extra $300-500 I can make. No rental contracts and potential liability issues are nice.

Anyway, I have some friends that come to me for advice on TS's and I've been telling them that I can no longer recommend Marriott since they changed systems. I only recommend them if there's a specific week that they want to use year after year to do something like skiing. Then I do recommend the resale deeded weeks. I can't recommend the DC points because not only is there a super high initial cost, but the MF's for a high value week reservation are exorbitant.

However, the main reason I don't recommend the DC points is there's no way to divest yourself from them in a reasonable fashion. The buyers remorse thread got me thinking about this again and I didn't want to hijack that thread nor did I want that person to feel more miserable then they already do. So, can somebody please educate me on this question. Is there an avenue for a DC trust points owner to reasonably sell/divest themselves of their points if they no longer want them? What are the current Marriott rules and "fees" on that?

On the other hand, I now strongly recommend DVC points to any of my friends that have an interest in Disney or Hawaii (Aulani). I now own 560 DVC points and I bought the first 250 directly through Disney even with all the knowledge I had of the resale market. I got a special through Disney and paid $88/point for the Grand Californian which is now selling resale for $110-$120/point. I'm now currently under contract for another 270 points that are waiting on ROFR. I love DVC because they have a very robust resale and rental/transfer market. I can very easily use my points to stay at Aulani or DL or DW which we've done a lot of. Aulani provides a nice staycation for us. For the points I can't use, I just rent/transfer them which I can usually do in 24-48 hours. I know I can also sell/divest myself of the points for actually more then I paid for them! Talk about a no brainer of a purchase for me!

Anyway, back to why I started this thread. Again, is there an avenue for a DC trust points owner to reasonably sell/divest themselves of their points if they no longer want them? What are the current Marriott rules and "fees" on that? I don't own any DC trust points nor do I plan on purchasing any, but I would like to know so I can answer my different friends and families questions.

 

[SueDonJ]

Yes, DC Trust Points can be resold. But with the relative newness of the product it's understandable that a resale market hasn't yet developed to the extent of the Marriott Weeks market (or DVC's market.)

This recent thread discusses the various fees for DC Points sales/transfers: DC point sale on e-bay

 

[Clemson Fan]

Thanks Sue!

My disappointment with Marriott continues! They were at one time right up there with Disney being a model TS company. With this new program they decided to go the other direction towards being just another sleazy (albeit just somewhat) TS company. They actually have a much better portfolio of resorts then Disney, and if they would've just thought things out a little further they could've surpassed Disney to become the premier TS company. This whole "Death to us part" mentality just devalues their product for everyone IMO.

I still strongly recommend Disney (even developer sales for their newer resorts) to my friends that ask (a lot do), but I still have to advise them to stay away from Marriott. Oh well.

 

[SueDonJ]

I have a hard time "strongly" recommending any timeshares - it's a vacation lifestyle that requires a degree of commitment that many just don't want to assume. Plus, the old adage to not talk money among friends makes a good deal of sense.

I've been a DVC fan for far longer than we've been Marriott owners but Don doesn't share my WDW love - it's probably his Number One fault. :rofl: I definitely share your opinion that Marriott would be better if the ownership was RTU like Disney's rather than perpetual, but I'm still thrilled that Marriott introduced a product that marries DVC's flexible usage options with Marriott's extensive resort network. It's not The Best of both worlds but it's pretty sweet for us enrolled Members.

If you look hard enough for a sleaze factor you'll find it in any of the timeshare companies these days. For me the bloom came off the DVC rose when they were forced to stop selling Aulani because the MF's they set at rollout were found to be deficient. But they fixed the problem, getting rid of a few execs in the process, and now appear to be back on the right track.

As for learning new systems, I don't find that Marriott is any better or worse than others. For us Weeks Owners the Points system sure threw a few curves but with time and experience we're able to make the best of it. The knowledgeable Trust Members who post to TUG appear to be mostly satisfied as well. No worries.

 

[GregT]

Clemson Fan,

My advice to others is consistent with yours -- buy a resale week at a Marriott if you would like to visit that resort, and be cautious if you buy the week primarily to trade. There are other mini-systems (HGVC/Starwood/Disney) that are available to the resale buyer that I believe are more stable than Marriott's.

With respect to your comments on the complexity of the Marriott system -- I agree. But, I've become pragmatic about Marriott and adopted the mind-set that the system isn't going to change, therefore how can I maximize it? You and I are the clear winners in the new system, as we are Premier Plus due to our legacy weeks. And there are many things about the system that you and I should like, because I believe it was structured to give Premier and Premier Plus the most benefits -- and we are starting there.

(As an aside, I encourage you to avoid the temptation one day to sell off an excess Marriott week -- if the sale might drop you out of Premier Plus. If you start to play with Points within Marriott, I think you will like the perks that Premier Plus provides. )

Good work with Disney by the way -- you should consider offering Disney access in Direct Exchange for Marriott points. I've found HGVC to be a good companion to trade for DC Points.

All the best,

Greg

 

[Clemson Fan]

If you look hard enough for a sleaze factor you'll find it in any of the timeshare companies these days. For me the bloom came off the DVC rose when they were forced to stop selling Aulani because the MF's they set at rollout were found to be deficient. But they fixed the problem, getting rid of a few execs in the process, and now appear to be back on the right track.

I actually think DVC showed off their good character with that debacle. They were very transparant about it and they grandfathered in everybody who bought points at Aulani prior to them changing the MF's and temporarily halting sales. Those grandfathered in MF's extend for the life of the contract even if you resell the contract. There's a novel concept in the TS industry!

DVC did recently put a restriction on resale points being used on their outside of DVC products like Disney Cruises and such, but those are fairly minor and most DVC experts say that those monetarily weren't a good use of points anyway. I kind of equate that move to before the DC points program when Marriott would not allow resale owners to exchange their weeks for Marriott Reward Points.

 

[frank808]

If you look hard enough for a sleaze factor you'll find it in any of the timeshare companies these days. For me the bloom came off the DVC rose when they were forced to stop selling Aulani because the MF's they set at rollout were found to be deficient. But they fixed the problem, getting rid of a few execs in the process, and now appear to be back on the right track.

I think DVC handled this well also. They also let the buyers or contracts to keep their contracts with the subsidized dues or let DVC take them back with ALL monies refunded. And if you used any points they were a gift that did not need to be repaid at all. For some that cancelled the contracts they got to use 2 years of free points! What other TS company would be so understanding?

 

[davidvel]

What other TS company would be so understanding?

Not many, but I also know a guy who robbed a bank and got caught. He was so understanding he returned the money.

I know, I know, it was an "honest mistake" as to the MF calculation, not an intentional lowball upfront to get sales...

 

[SueDonJ]

Not many, but I also know a guy who robbed a bank and got caught. He was so understanding he returned the money.

I know, I know, it was an "honest mistake" as to the MF calculation, not an intentional lowball upfront to get sales...

Exactly.

ClemsonFan and Frank, note I did say they fixed it and now are on the right track. But it was a massive error that simply defies logic - the MF's were set so low that reports said the resort would be bankrupted by it. As to how "transparent" they were in finding it and notifying owners I don't think anybody knows the real story because they didn't stop selling until the regulatory agencies forced them to do so. For all we know those same agencies forced them to offer the take-back and grandfathering concessions to existing owners at the time, too.

Now that the economy has had its poor effect on all of the timeshare companies and DVC has joined the others in exercising ROFR less often as well as differentiating usage benefits between direct purchases and external resales, we're seeing that DVC's historically-robust resale value is falling somewhat. They're a timeshare company, they're doing what all the other timeshare companies do albeit not to the extreme degree of some. That's not meant as a criticism of the product or the company; it's simply a statement that acknowledges the current climate.

Like I said, I'm a huge DVC fan and have been for a long time. You don't have to convince me that it's a great product from a good company with a mostly-positive reputation.

 

[frank808]

ClemsonFan and Frank, note I did say they fixed it and now are on the right track. But it was a massive error that simply defies logic - the MF's were set so low that reports said the resort would be bankrupted by it.

I did not think the MF's were out of proportion. If you take into account the Marriott Ko Olina next door the MF's was I think about $1737 for 2010. While DVC was charging anywhere from $1927 to $2600 in MF's for a week in a 2br ocean view villa. The MF's were not cheap by any means as you could stay at the marriott for at least $200 cheaper in an ocean view studio.

Now no one knows except for the higher ups if MF were set up so low to entice buyers. I would not believe they would do that on purpose so as to stop sales for a few months and go through all that trouble. All that happened has cost them millions. For all the subsidized points it will cost DVC millions for the next 49 years also.

Don't worry even though we are on TUG and not on mouseowners DVC has fans everywhere. I guess we are some of them! Might want to check about resale prices for DVC. In the past month ROFR through the mouse is very active. So active in fact that the resale prices have gone up $25 a point resale at one resort(VGC) and added at least $5 a point everywhere else. I was able to buy OKW for $43 per point loaded (came with 2 years of free points so in essence $25 if you rented the points) in October of 2011. Now for a stripped contract with no banked points you would need to pay at least $53 per point to pass ROFR. What other TS has increased in resale prices recently?

 

[Clemson Fan]

Now that the economy has had its poor effect on all of the timeshare companies and DVC has joined the others in exercising ROFR less often as well as differentiating usage benefits between direct purchases and external resales, we're seeing that DVC's historically-robust resale value is falling somewhat.

I actually follow this market pretty closely and its very much returned back to a sellers market. The inventory of resale contracts is the lowest I've seen it and the ones that come on the market are going sale pending very quickly.

I bought a resale Grand Californian Contract at $75/point 2 years ago and now that same contract is going for $110-120/point.

 

[mj2vacation]

Sue,

What regulatory agency forced Disney to do that? I followed the situation very closely, and I never heard anything like that. Is there a link or article that has additional information?

 

[Clemson Fan]

Sue,

What regulatory agency forced Disney to do that? I followed the situation very closely, and I never heard anything like that. Is there a link or article that has additional information?

I had that same question. I didn't hear of any regulatory agency that forced Disney's hand in the situation.

 

[m61376]

Out of curiosity, is Disney maintaining the same MF's for those that were grandfathered, or just using that base for incremental changes?

 

[Clemson Fan]

Out of curiosity, is Disney maintaining the same MF's for those that were grandfathered, or just using that base for incremental changes?

The latter. On the resale market Aulani contracts are listed as "subsidized" or non-subsidized and the "subsidized mf's are going up the same percentage each year (2-7%) as the non-subsidized mf's.

Aulani $4.77 (purchased before 7/7/11)
Aulani $6.25 (purchased after 7/7/11)

 

[Clemson Fan]

As an aside, I encourage you to avoid the temptation one day to sell off an excess Marriott week -- if the sale might drop you out of Premier Plus. If you start to play with Points within Marriott, I think you will like the perks that Premier Plus provides.

I did entertain this idea a couple of years ago for my 1 bedroom MGC week which I never use. However, thanks to your website making renting the points so darn easy I actually make money on that week which I could've never done before. I get 2200 points for that week and my MF is around $750. I can rent those points on your website for $1200-1300 producing a yearly profit of $500 for the week. So, thanks to you, I've lost any incentive to sell it.

I also do use some of the points and I agree that I'm a winner in the new system. I just hate, though, that cross eyed look I get from family and friends where on the one hand they can see the excellent success I get with Marriott, but I then tell them I wouldn't recommend buying into the point system which then generates a rather lengthy and complicated explanation as to why that is.

 

[taffy19]

I did entertain this idea a couple of years ago for my 1 bedroom MGC week which I never use. However, thanks to your website making renting the points so darn easy I actually make money on that week which I could've never done before. I get 2200 points for that week and my MF is around $750. I can rent those points on your website for $1200-1300 producing a yearly profit of $500 for the week. So, thanks to you, I've lost any incentive to sell it.

I also do use some of the points and I agree that I'm a winner in the new system. I just hate, though, that cross eyed look I get from family and friends where on the one hand they can see the excellent success I get with Marriott, but I then tell them I wouldn't recommend buying into the point system which then generates a rather lengthy and complicated explanation as to why that is.

I agree as the main reason I see is that the points will devalue over time so your week will no longer be a week long at another resort where you may have to fly to or is a long drive so you have no choice but to spend more money if you want to stay as long as you were given at the beginning as a Legacy week owner. The nice feature is that we can transfer points from one Legacy week owner to the other at no charge at the moment but will that stay? I hope so. I assume that it is the same for Trust owners too.

Has anyone here transferred a bunch of points (like 7000 plus) all in one scoop? We may do that for next year. That may be easier than trying to rent it out? Please let me know.

 

[SueDonJ]

Sue,

What regulatory agency forced Disney to do that? I followed the situation very closely, and I never heard anything like that. Is there a link or article that has additional information?

I had that same question. I didn't hear of any regulatory agency that forced Disney's hand in the situation.

I first learned about it on the disboards and from there followed all the Orlando Sentinel articles, as well as reports from various financial sites that I found through searches. I don't know the names or where to find them but it would be the same states agencies that had to approve the original timeshare plan as well as the revised 30+%-higher MF's that DVC eventually rolled out to correct the error. IMO Disney's hand was definitely forced by being subject to states approval, I don't know how anybody could think differently.

From what I remember they were selling Aulani points for about a year before the suspension. There came a time when a few people posted to the disboards about something curious, that when they got their paperwork it was all completed as if their purchases were Animal Kingdom Villas points. I forget how many people exactly but a few and none of them were able to get an explanation when they called their guides. Within that same time frame during a large-scale sales operation, in CA I think, the guides had to revamp everything mid-operation to stop selling Aulani and offer AKV instead. Again, no explanation but there were unfounded (and it turns out, untrue) rumors that either DVC wasn't licensed to sell in Hawaii or Phase I of Aulani had sold out remarkably fast. A couple days later, the Orlando Sentinel published a story very late on a Friday afternoon that Jim Lewis and two other high-level execs were "fired" amid rumors that Aulani's financials were a mess. There was a lot of emphasis put on the use of "fired" to describe their separation from the company because Disney traditionally had allowed execs to leave with dignity and a severance package even when forced out - none of those three got that treatment.

Disney's press releases about the firings said that they'd found the MF error through an internal investigation and that they were working to re-file with the state agencies to correct the error. Whether they or the agencies found it really doesn't matter because as soon as it was realized, there would have been no way that the agencies would have allowed Disney to keep selling with the original figures while at the same time filing revised figures for approval. And there was no way that Disney would have kept selling with the original figures because eventually they would have had to either subsidize an even more obscene amount themselves, or, try to put forward an obscene special assessment or MF increase without attracting legal issues from owners and the states agencies.

Four months or so later the HI state agencies approved the revised 30+% increased MF's and it was possible to buy there but it took a while before they had full approval from all the necessary US states.

I really do understand DVC Members wanting to see Disney as being more above-board and generous than any other timeshare company would be in a similar situation. But IMO this is about as bad a situation as any I've ever heard of with a big timeshare player and it's just not possible for any of us to know the pressure that was put on Disney from the states agencies. Honestly, whether it was Disney's fear of how the agencies could react or whether the agencies laid down the terms and Disney accepted them, what does it matter why the take-back and grandfathering concessions were given? I would EXPECT a timeshare company to react with that much "goodwill" in such a bad situation! The question is what would Disney or any other company do in the same situation if there weren't regulatory agencies - and I don't think ANY timeshare company would come out smelling like roses in that scenario.

 

[Clemson Fan]

Has anyone here transferred a bunch of points (like 7000 plus) all in one scoop? We may do that for next year. That may be easier than trying to rent it out? Please let me know.

Yup, I transferred over 8000 points last year in a single transaction and over 5000 this year in a single transaction. Both transactions were done within 72 hours of first posting it on Greg's website.

It's MUCH easier then trying to rent and you don't have to worry about rental contracts and potential liability issues with your renters. I do leave maybe $300-500 on the table, but that's SO worth it IMO.

 

[taffy19]

Just saw this now. Thank you for your reply.