DC point sale on e-bay

suenmike32 · Feb 27, 2013

Just noticed 1500 DC points sold on e-bay for $5,100.00. There were additional costs, etc: closing fees of $350.00, current maintenance fees of $820, then transfer fees of $2,000.00 (or slightly more).
Is this an avenue to sell your points (should your life situation change)?
Is ROFR involved in this?
Curious as to other Tugger thoughts.
Thanks,
Mike

swaits · Feb 27, 2013

Interesting. I'm certain Marriott won't be thrilled about the market revealing a true value on Trust Point ownership.

Bnov · Feb 27, 2013

I believe Marriott always has ROFR with Trust Point sales.

capjak · Feb 27, 2013

True but the seller still gets the same amount of money from the sale,

dioxide45 · Feb 27, 2013

IMO, the price was too high. $5100, + $2000 + $300 +$150 + $95. That is over $7600. Yes, only 50% of what the current developer rate is, but still too high for what I think trust points are worth considering the uncharted territory that the new buyer would be in.

Given the private listing, I wouldn't be surprised if there was shill bidding going on also.

suenmike32 · Feb 28, 2013

Shill bidding is always a possibility on e-bay (it always has been). However, somebody ended paying e-bay a commission, (shilled or not).
What I find interesting is that there is little or no interest in what has just transpired, (especially if it really happened as presented).
In that Marriott has never implemented any type of program to sell your legacy or trust points....this may (or may not) get their attention.
Then again....why would it? Back in the day...when they were selling weeks, they said they would buy your week back...or sell it for you, (and they never did).....
More than likely this will just be ignored. By the response...most Tuggers seem to be ignoring it too.

FractionalTraveler · Feb 28, 2013

suenmike32 said:
Shill bidding is always a possibility on e-bay (it always has been). However, somebody ended paying e-bay a commission, (shilled or not).
What I find interesting is that there is little or no interest in what has just transpired, (especially if it really happened as presented).
In that Marriott has never implemented any type of program to sell your legacy or trust points....this may (or may not) get their attention.
Then again....why would it? Back in the day...when they were selling weeks, they said they would buy your week back...or sell it for you, (and they never did).....
More than likely this will just be ignored. By the response...most Tuggers seem to be ignoring it too.

Marriott has ROFR so really nothing has transpired yet until Marriott decides what it wants to do.

Marriott is currently buying back weeks and will continue to do so for the rest of 2013 so it may very well ignore this transaction.

fluke · Feb 28, 2013

Over the last 5-6 months there have been 5 or 6 E-Bay listings of Trust points that I have seen - likely there have been more I haven't seen. There have been several listings in the TUG marketplace by brokers. On E-bay the prices have ranged in the 2-4 dollar/point area. I have even placed a couple of low bids. As a matter of fact there are 2 1000 point listings now.

this one http://www.ebay.com/itm/1-000-Annua...30933305220?pt=Timeshares&hash=item35c4b29784 and another.

2 things make these purchases unattractive. The high fees of transfer (the ROFR Waiver fee and the education fee) and the uncertainty of the usefulness of resale points.

There have already been several threads arguing what penalties would be imposed on resale points and splitting ever word and sentence in the trust documents. Some people think the points will be like any other trust point after payment. Others think you will only access trust property without access to the exchange inventory. Others think all resale points will be restricted to 60 day reservations. Which of these is right is a guess right now - everyone reads the documents a little different.

Also a completed sale, to my knowledge has never been reported here. A member who is a broker ( FredM) did report a sale that was ROFRed at I think about $3/point.

SueDonJ · Feb 28, 2013

fluke said:
... Also a completed sale, to my knowledge has never been reported here. A member who is a broker ( FredM) did report a sale that was ROFRed at I think about $3/point.

I think you hit the nail on the head here. TUG isn't exactly uninterested in DC Points resales but with all the discussions related to the document language behind us, it's sort of useless (for lack of a better word?) to ramp up the interest level until we have someone participating on TUG who's successfully navigated a DC Points resale and can share the official transfer and usage details.

We've tracked the few resales to this point as far as possible and the one FredM reported as taken through ROFR was the only one completed. It's inevitable that eventually DC Points resales will be more common, and the TUG minds will then be as valuable an information source for those as it always has been for any other Marriott-related products.

dioxide45 · Mar 1, 2013

fluke said:
There have already been several threads arguing what penalties would be imposed on resale points and splitting ever word and sentence in the trust documents. Some people think the points will be like any other trust point after payment. Others think you will only access trust property without access to the exchange inventory. Others think all resale points will be restricted to 60 day reservations. Which of these is right is a guess right now - everyone reads the documents a little different.

It isn't really about how one reads the documents. The documents seem rather clear. They can limit resale purchases not through an approved broker to only make reservations within 60 days of checking. What is unclear is Marriott's desire to hold to these limitations. From all reports, it doesn't seem like they are going to do this. At least for now.

Also a completed sale, to my knowledge has never been reported here. A member who is a broker ( FredM) did report a sale that was ROFRed at I think about $3/point.

FredM did add that ROFR to the ROFR database. Exact price was $3.20pp.

Heir Apparent · Mar 1, 2013

Does Marriott keep a list of approved brokers or is that legal speak for Marriott's own resale department?

SueDonJ · Mar 1, 2013

Heir Apparent said:
Does Marriott keep a list of approved brokers or is that legal speak for Marriott's own resale department?

The last I remember hearing is that Marriott hadn't officially named any "approved brokers," including their own Resale Operations staff! There also haven't been any official statements about usage of resold DC Points but a few folks have called Owner Services and been told that full usage rights will be granted as long as all the other resale transfer stipulations are met and fees are paid.

BocaBoy · Mar 2, 2013

SueDonJ said:
The last I remember hearing is that Marriott hadn't officially named any "approved brokers," including their own Resale Operations staff!

This is still the case.

suenmike32 · Mar 2, 2013

Much like the warnings cigarette manufacturers must post on the side of their cigarette packs....
Marriott should post a warning on their contracts "till death do us part"
Mike

NightSkyTraveler · Mar 2, 2013

We bought points in Hawaii just as they came out. We never intended to buy anything but liked the flexibility. I wish I had known about TUG before and since, but just found this recently. Since the 2010 purchase I found points on eBay. I did purchase them. They were cheaper than retail. Since that time, I have used them. I will tell you that we only own points, for now. They went into my account like my other points. I would not notice a difference if it were not for the usage year dates. There are no restrictions on them, as I borrowed from my 2013 to go to GO in December 2012.

I will say that Marriott was extremely curious how I ended up with more points when they called to confirm my reservation. The rep could not see where I got them from and asked how more points were in my account. I informed her that I bought them on eBay. She replied that she did not know that was possible.

Thanks to all here now, I am wiser to the ways of Marriott.

And since owning, we have been to St Thomas, crystal shores, grand vista, grand ocean, and heading to harbor lake and breckenridge with one more trip to plan on remaining points. And no, we are not even premier.

FlyerBobcat · Mar 2, 2013

Welcome to TUG! :wave:

NightSkyTraveler said:
We bought points in Hawaii just as they came out. We never intended to buy anything but liked the flexibility. I wish I had known about TUG before and since, but just found this recently. Since the 2010 purchase I found points on eBay. I did purchase them. They were cheaper than retail. Since that time, I have used them. I will tell you that we only own points, for now. They went into my account like my other points. I would not notice a difference if it were not for the usage year dates. There are no restrictions on them, as I borrowed from my 2013 to go to GO in December 2012.

I will say that Marriott was extremely curious how I ended up with more points when they called to confirm my reservation. The rep could not see where I got them from and asked how more points were in my account. I informed her that I bought them on eBay. She replied that she did not know that was possible.

Thanks to all here now, I am wiser to the ways of Marriott.

And since owning, we have been to St Thomas, crystal shores, grand vista, grand ocean, and heading to harbor lake and breckenridge with one more trip to plan on remaining points. And no, we are not even premier.

SueDonJ · Mar 2, 2013

NightSkyTraveler said:
We bought points in Hawaii just as they came out. We never intended to buy anything but liked the flexibility. I wish I had known about TUG before and since, but just found this recently. Since the 2010 purchase I found points on eBay. I did purchase them. They were cheaper than retail. Since that time, I have used them. I will tell you that we only own points, for now. They went into my account like my other points. I would not notice a difference if it were not for the usage year dates. There are no restrictions on them, as I borrowed from my 2013 to go to GO in December 2012.

I will say that Marriott was extremely curious how I ended up with more points when they called to confirm my reservation. The rep could not see where I got them from and asked how more points were in my account. I informed her that I bought them on eBay. She replied that she did not know that was possible.

Thanks to all here now, I am wiser to the ways of Marriott.

And since owning, we have been to St Thomas, crystal shores, grand vista, grand ocean, and heading to harbor lake and breckenridge with one more trip to plan on remaining points. And no, we are not even premier.

Hi, NightSkyTraveler, and welcome to TUG!

I hope you don't end up feeling too much like you're under a microscope here but as you already know, you're like a rare bird sighting in that you're the first DC Points resale owner to post. And boy do we have questions!

About what I bolded - that's interesting because it means that resold Points will transfer the same as in DVC (Disney Vacation Club) and retain the same Use Year as originally purchased, which makes for different reservation windows, banking/borrowing deadlines, etc. depending on which Points are being used.

Also, if someone owns Enrolled Weeks and purchases DC Points direct, the Use Year of those purchased Points is usually set to the same calendar-year Use Year as the Points from converted Weeks. But if purchased/transferred Points resales retain their original Use Year, which it appears in your situation they have, then it will be possible for Enrolled Owners to also be dealing with different Use Years.

I know DVC Owners try to tailor their resale purchases so that the contracts' Use Years will coincide best with their expected travel. It's definitely something to consider as the Marriott DC Points resale market develops.

dioxide45 · Mar 2, 2013

SueDonJ said:
Hi, NightSkyTraveler, and welcome to TUG!

I hope you don't end up feeling too much like you're under a microscope here but as you already know, you're like a rare bird sighting in that you're the first DC Points resale owner to post. And boy do we have questions!

About what I bolded - that's interesting because it means that resold Points will transfer the same as in DVC (Disney Vacation Club) and retain the same Use Year as originally purchased, which makes for different reservation windows, banking/borrowing deadlines, etc. depending on which Points are being used.

Also, if someone owns Enrolled Weeks and purchases DC Points direct, the Use Year of those purchased Points is usually set to the same calendar-year Use Year as the Points from converted Weeks. But if purchased/transferred Points resales retain their original Use Year, which it appears in your situation they have, then it will be possible for Enrolled Owners to also be dealing with different Use Years.

I know DVC Owners try to tailor their resale purchases so that the contracts' Use Years will coincide best with their expected travel. It's definitely something to consider as the Marriott DC Points resale market develops.

If an enrolled owner buys trust points from another owner that is enrolled, then the use year would be the same as their enrolled points. NightSkyTraveler purchased trust points as a non enrolled owner. So their use year was determined by the time of year they bought. It is possible that they bought their resale trust points from an enrolled owner, so the use year is on a calendar year (Jan-Dec). This could make using the points a little more confusing, but perhaps worth it if the purchase price is low enough.

Just like any new resort, even three years in, you don't see a lot of resales. Wait until 10 years in and the market will be flooded with trust points. At that point we will have a much better handle on how resale trust points work and there will be a lot more confirmed resale purchases.

NightSkyTraveler · Mar 2, 2013

We realize our uniqueness. In December at GO the sales people were nearly salivating over us. Unfortunately we did not have time for a presentation, so they had to be disappointed.

As far as the use year, we believe (cannot say for sure), that Marriott prefers to have the points be jan-dec. we bought ours from them in July, but asked that the expedite the process of closing as we needed to be able to book for a wedding.
When we bought on eBay, the points were jan-dec. So, when we look at our points, we see them separated based on those two use year dates. It gets confusing, but we have it all worked out for ourselves and know the dates we need to bank, borrow, convert. But since the newest ones are always usd first, not much of a problem.

I am assuming the eBay points from "seller" were jan-dec. the paperwork did show who owned it previously, but after they were in our account, we really did not care to really look at it further.

We just know that the points show in the account for the next couple of usage years like out original Marriott purchase does.

Our usage started in 2011, so we still feel "new" to the system, but have learned a lot in those years.

m61376 · Mar 3, 2013

NightSkyTraveler- did you have to pay any enrollment or education fees ?

NightSkyTraveler · Mar 3, 2013

m61376 said:
NightSkyTraveler- did you have to pay any enrollment or education fees ?

Unfortunately yes. I do not know if we could have got around that. Also had to go through ROFR. Still cheaper than what we paid for our original points. Doubt we will every buy more with finding out about renting points.

dioxide45 · Mar 3, 2013

NightSkyTraveler said:
Unfortunately yes. I do not know if we could have got around that. Also had to go through ROFR. Still cheaper than what we paid for our original points. Doubt we will every buy more with finding out about renting points.

I am curious what the ROFR fee is? Was it just $95? The trust documents permit a ROFR up to $1 per point.

NightSkyTraveler · Mar 3, 2013

dioxide45 said:
I am curious what the ROFR fee is? Was it just $95? The trust documents permit a ROFR up to $1 per point.

I went back and looked. There was nothing that mentioned ROFR fee. I have to assume the was part of the enrollment fee/education fee. Sorry I cannot be of more help with that.

fluke · Mar 3, 2013

NightSkytraveler said:
I went back and looked. There was nothing that mentioned ROFR fee. I have to assume the was part of the enrollment fee/education fee. Sorry I cannot be of more help with that.

I have spoken several brokers (assuming they have good info) and they have told me allof the fees were $200 per beneficial interest (250 points) for a minimum of $2000 + $300 per name on the deed. Does that sound similiar to your transaction? Any other fees?

NightSkyTraveler · Mar 3, 2013

fluke said:
I have spoken several brokers (assuming they have good info) and they have told me allof the fees were $200 per beneficial interest (250 points) for a minimum of $2000 + $300 per name on the deed. Does that sound similiar to your transaction? Any other fees?

Yes that and $385 closing.

DC point sale on e-bay

suenmike32

swaits

Bnov

capjak

dioxide45

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FractionalTraveler

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