Creating a liquid timeshare resale market

[Carolinian]

Pretentiousness aside:

Apparently you don't understand that here on the west side of the USA the resorts are pretty quiet over thanksgiving - likely because many people go home for that holiday - thus a "mud week".

EUROPE might be different DAAARLING.

Most of my timeshare experience comes from the Outer Banks of North Carolina, and if you are geographically challenged, that is not in Europe, although Europe is where I live and work presently.

Look at the RCI Points grid for week 47 on the OBX if you need a point of reference, or the premium people pay to buy that week on the resale market.

And the OBX is not the only place on the US east coast where that is true.

 

[ampaholic]

Most of my timeshare experience comes from the Outer Banks of North Carolina, and if you are geographically challenged, that is not in Europe, although Europe is where I live and work presently.

Look at the RCI Points grid for week 47 on the OBX if you need a point of reference, or the premium people pay to buy that week on the resale market.

And the OBX is not the only place on the US east coast where that is true.

And people wonder why there was a Civil War ....

 

[AwayWeGo]

Hint . . .

And people wonder why there was a Civil War .

. . . it wasn't fought over timeshares.

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​

 

[Ridewithme38]

. . . it wasn't fought over timeshares.

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​

Sure, that's what the History books say...But we all know who writes the History books!

 

[Beefnot]

First, EVERY resort area is seasonal. Even London at the high end of the supply / demand curve has seasons when demand outstrips supply even more than it does in the rest of the year.

Fees are based on actual costs of running the resort as you well know from serving on an HOA board. I have yet to see a points grid that is fair, based on the need to be compact and therefore to overaverage, so that is certainly NOT a fair way to apportion costs.

RCI is to blame because it was their promotion of the 45 day window for many years in their promotional films and printed materials, including a constant two page spread in their directory, that was behind the developers selling the offseason weeks on that basis. If RCI had not promoted it so heavily, the developers would have had to find other ways of selling those weeks, like the developer at The Windjammer who decided the market for winter on the Outer Banks was selling to Canadians who would consider it a heat wave compared to their own country at time of the year, and had amazing success with that concept. Most took the path of least resistance and used RCI's marketing approach of pushing the 45-day window. Under Cendent, RCI stabbed its resort affiliates in the back by kicking out this prop that RCI itself had created. This left the HOA's in the lurch, so, yes RCI does have a big part of the blame for this.

I know 8000 posts and many years have not stopped you from beating the same, dead "RCI=Antichrist" horse, but c'mon man, just let that go. At least in this thread, Kill it. It's corny, silly, and shallow to blame RCI for the collapse of TSing. Just plain tired. Feel free to have a single-minded purpose of destroying RCI, which has failed to date by the way, but have some discretion about when to whip out your pulpit.:zzz:

 

[Ridewithme38]

I know 8000 posts and many years have not stopped you from beating the same, dead "RCI=Antichrist" horse, but c'mon man, just let that go. At least in this thread, Kill it. It's corny, silly, and shallow to blame RCI for the collapse of TSing. Just plain tired. Feel free to have a single-minded purpose of destroying RCI, which has failed to date by the way, but have some discretion about when to whip out your pulpit.:zzz:

I'm new, but i don't remember Caroline posting about anything BUT how evil RCI is...it would seem, she has very limited knowledge on Timesharing in general

 

[e.bram]

Actually RCI points are not a points conversion, but a 3 year lease(renewable) to RCI to which they assign points. You can sublease others leased RCI units for the assigned amount of points. Since you still own the units you pay your old MF(+ RCI fee). Also since you a get points dependent on the point value of your unit, the cost per point still depends on the TS unit, not the # of points as suggested by some posters

 

[ronparise]

Just because some, like the upfront fee companies, are sleaze does not mean that everyone in the timeshare resale business is. Timesharing Today magazine, for example, helped start a professional association of timeshare brokers who were properly licensed in their states and did not charge upfront fees.

I know that , and you know that, but my broker doesnt know that...and she is unwilling to get into a side of the business with a reputation like timeshares

 

[ronparise]

?? Each point costs $X. You don't buy X week - you buy X points. So if you want enough points every use period to get a prime week you pay more then you would have as a subsidized fixed week owner living off the fees of the dog weeks. If you are a bit more aggressive you get less points, pay less per year, and stretch them as best you can. You control the use, the cost & it's the same per point for everyone. So a dog owner pays less - a prime owner more. That reflects the value received which is where fixed weeks / same price for all fails miserably. And helped create the dumping we see going on especially in poor value (dog) ownerships of those costly fixed times.

Yes, RCI changes & rentals also helped fuel the issue but the basis is the unfair distribution of fees. At one time RCI "adjusted" for that using unfair trades but they stopped that. It was never supposed to do that - it was an unintended by product of the flawed weeks system(s). Points actually deals with the problem by smoothing costs to reflect the value you receive.

If you are saying your mf varies based on the number of points assigned to you week...thats wrong....

The starting point is with a week and that week has the same mf whether its a prime week or a dog....then points are assigned... the dogs get less points than the prime weeks....

Which still means the dog week owners are subsidizing the prime week owners

I own a week at VVP and pay the same mf as Alan...but he gets 90000 points and I only get 70000 fair??? Alan probably thinks so

 

[ampaholic]

I'm not sure RCI Points (at least as they are now) is any sort of ultimate destination - I'm just saying that is the direction timesharing is going.

I think timesharing (as a subject) is still on the potters wheel and we here now perhaps can and should try to influence the final shape before it goes into the kiln.

Whining about how bad things are really fails to change the shape as does grandiose ideas that involve replacing the lump of clay with a different one.

One idea that would move change along is to batter RCI with complaints that it's just too hard to get prime weeks with either RCI Points or RCI Weeks deposits - and it has the advantage of being do-able.

RCI certainly is not, nor has it ever been "perfect" - but it is the big dog in the pack - if people could get any type of leash on it, change might be possible.

Hey, maybe we should buy stock in RCI - rock the shareholders meeting?

 

[e.bram]

Amp:
What good is battering RCI when PRIME week owners don't convert to points or deposit? They use or rent!(like me)

 

[Ridewithme38]

Amp:
What good is battering RCI when PRIME week owners don't convert to points or deposit? They use or rent!(like me)

I think the best thing Timesharing can do is actually define Prime....I own a July 4th week in one of the most popular family travel locations in the world, and have deposited it....But to some, this isn't Prime

 

[Carolinian]

RCI's original policies are what was responsible for timesharing taking off and really getting established. RCI founder Crystal deHaan was brilliant. But in the post Cendent days, things have changed. There are specific policies that bring specific results, like their rentals to the public, but there are always those on this board who want to put on their rose colored glasses.

If you dispute the specific circumstances I have addressed and the impact they have caused, please have the courage to say why and lets discuss it, not play ''shoot the messenger'' with your ad hominem attacks. And this is the second one this thread. The impact of RCI's degrading the 45 day window was predicted years ago, and now we are seeing the result.

After the rentals to the public came out, and the Seasons timeshare chain bolted RCI and jumped to II, they fired a withering broadside at RCI in their newsletter over both the impact of the rentals and the impact of the Points / Weeks relationship that some on TUG accused me of writing because it was precisely what I had been saying here. I wish that newsletter had not cycled off of their website as it was powerful.

And I remember when I first started pointing out several things that indicated that RCI was going to move into rentals to the general public, and the little cadre of RCI defenders on these boards lambasted me for suggesting that and said it was far fetched. Well we saw how that proved out! So, I have a thick skin and you can call me all the childish names you want to. I will address the facts. And I have from time to time complimented RCI, although a lot less the more Cendent got its hooks into the company.

I know 8000 posts and many years have not stopped you from beating the same, dead "RCI=Antichrist" horse, but c'mon man, just let that go. At least in this thread, Kill it. It's corny, silly, and shallow to blame RCI for the collapse of TSing. Just plain tired. Feel free to have a single-minded purpose of destroying RCI, which has failed to date by the way, but have some discretion about when to whip out your pulpit.:zzz:

 

[ampaholic]

I don't think e.bram remembers he's on my ignore list for his elitist comments to Tombo months ago.

 

[Beefnot]

RCI's original policies are what was responsible for timesharing taking off and really getting established. RCI founder Crystal deHaan was brilliant. But in the post Cendent days, things have changed. There are specific policies that bring specific results, like their rentals to the public, but there are always those on this board who want to put on their rose colored glasses.

If you dispute the specific circumstances I have addressed and the impact they have caused, please have the courage to say why and lets discuss it, not play ''shoot the messenger'' with your ad hominem attacks. And this is the second one this thread. The impact of RCI's degrading the 45 day window was predicted years ago, and now we are seeing the result.

After the rentals to the public came out, and the Seasons timeshare chain bolted RCI and jumped to II, they fired a withering broadside at RCI in their newsletter over both the impact of the rentals and the impact of the Points / Weeks relationship that some on TUG accused me of writing because it was precisely what I had been saying here. I wish that newsletter had not cycled off of their website as it was powerful.

And I remember when I first started pointing out several things that indicated that RCI was going to move into rentals to the general public, and the little cadre of RCI defenders on these boards lambasted me for suggesting that and said it was far fetched. Well we saw how that proved out! So, I have a thick skin and you can call me all the childish names you want to. I will address the facts. And I have from time to time complimented RCI, although a lot less the more Cendent got its hooks into the company.

I called you not one name, let alone a childish one. As to you hating RCI, hate away. But your hatred of RCI causes you to attribute all things bad to RCI and it gets old because it is just not reasonable to infer that some of RCI's shady practices are responsible for the collapse of the timeshare market, which is what you seem to want folks to rally around. The independents are there and will still be there as alternatives.

Overwhelmingly, people are not fulfilling their MF obligations because they cannot afford it or cannot physically travel any longer, not because they are pissed that RCI shafted them through their exchange policies. Don't get me wrong, I am not saying that addressing these things should be of no concern. The focus should be on creating a healthy secondary market and TS model that can weather economic and generational cycles, irrespective of what RCI does.

 

[timeos2]

Actually RCI points are not a points conversion, but a 3 year lease(renewable) to RCI to which they assign points. You can sublease others leased RCI units for the assigned amount of points. Since you still own the units you pay your old MF(+ RCI fee). Also since you a get points dependent on the point value of your unit, the cost per point still depends on the TS unit, not the # of points as suggested by some posters

Depends on how the points are marketed. It can be done by tying annual fee to point value. That is how I'd see it as a benefit. If the old style inequity is perpetrated by the "new " system it's worse than nothing to me.

 

[timeos2]

And what do you do with the profits of such a system? A non-profit corporation, which HOA's are, cannot distribute it to the members or officers. They can sit on the cash or give it to charity, and there is a limit to being able to sit on the cash.

Then they can cut the fees! Beat the rental prices! Still a great plan.

 

[timeos2]

If you are saying your mf varies based on the number of points assigned to you week...thats wrong....

The starting point is with a week and that week has the same mf whether its a prime week or a dog....then points are assigned... the dogs get less points than the prime weeks....

Which still means the dog week owners are subsidizing the prime week owners

I own a week at VVP and pay the same mf as Alan...but he gets 90000 points and I only get 70000 fair??? Alan probably thinks so

IF you do a week "conversion" that is correct. That is not what I'm saying helps solve the problem. I'm talking about the deeds staying in a trust - maybe even one under Association control - so no deeds are sold to new buyers. Instead you get a RTU or lease for XX years that give you XX points - backed by those Trust weeks. Thus the fee per point is the amount you pay. Get less pay less - take more & pay more. But always the same price per point. It can & does work that way.

And it doesn't have to be costly either. Remember the true cost to join RCI Points is $199. Above that is profit for the sller. If the Associations are in it to get fees & move inventory then holding the buy in very low is yet another plus to the process.

 

[e.bram]

John:
But that is not how RCI points are structured. They are result of individual leases from deed hplders.

 

[ampaholic]

Addendum to Declaration of Condominium and Timeshare Agreement - to be voted on and approved by a supermajority to pass:

From xx/xx/2013 on all timeshare maintenance fees at {fill in blank} resort will be based on one of the following formulas:

A: Fees will be 1.5 cents per year for each point awarded/granted/issued to the timeshare unit if it is enrolled in the RCI Points system.

B: If not in the RCI Points system the fees will be $15.50 per year per each TPU awarded by RCI to the unit.

The owner services dept at {fill in blank} resort will review unit fees and RCI allotment of points or TPU's between 4 months and 3 months before invoices are sent out.

Bla Bla Bla (other lawyer lingo about how you better pay up)

 

[e.bram]

Once you end like for like, you end exchanging. Except dog for dog and mud for mud and combinations and permutations

 

[Ridewithme38]

Addendum to Declaration of Condominium and Timeshare Agreement - to be voted on and approved by a supermajority to pass:

From xx/xx/2013 on all timeshare maintenance fees at {fill in blank} resort will be based on one of the following formulas:

A: Fees will be 1.5 cents per year for each point awarded/granted/issued to the timeshare unit if it is enrolled in the RCI Points system.

B: If not in the RCI Points system the fees will be $15.50 per year per each TPU awarded by RCI to the unit.

The owner services dept at {fill in blank} resort will review unit fees and RCI allotment of points or TPU's between 4 months and 3 months before invoices are sent out.

Bla Bla Bla (other lawyer lingo about how you better pay up)

Not bad numbers, that about what i pay per TPU for my Exchanger

 

[ronparise]

So the answer is for us to creat a trust and let anyone and everyone deed their weeks into it.. Prime weeks can be deeded for free, pink weeks a small fee, white weeks a larger fee and the blue weeks a still larger fee

These fees will be used to buy more weeks for the trust so that the total inventory will be balanced, ie an equal number of red, pink, white and blue weeks.. or more importantly since we are going to deposit everything to RCI, we want a reasonable average cost per TPU...

Then the entire mess deposited to RCI to obtain a big pile of TPU

Each tpu will have a cost basis equal to the total mf of all the weeks in the trust divided by the total number of tpu ....Im betting it comes out to about $25 or less per TPU

Then we assign the tpu to whomever wants them on a onetime use basis at their calculated value plus something to provide income to the trust (and of course the trustee)

If we can charge $30/tpu those sale weeks on RCI will cost $150 plus the exchange fee or $350...a typical 12 TPU week will cost $560 or you can stay at the Manhatten club for $285 per night

 

[ampaholic]

So the answer is for us to creat a trust and let anyone and everyone deed their weeks into it.. Prime weeks can be deeded for free, pink weeks a small fee, white weeks a larger fee and the blue weeks a still larger fee

These fees will be used to buy more weeks for the trust so that the total inventory will be balanced, ie an equal number of red, pink, white and blue weeks.. or more importantly since we are going to deposit everything to RCI, we want a reasonable average cost per TPU...

Then the entire mess deposited to RCI to obtain a big pile of TPU

Each tpu will have a cost basis equal to the total mf of all the weeks in the trust divided by the total number of tpu ....Im betting it comes out to about $25 or less per TPU

Then we assign the tpu to whomever wants them on a onetime use basis at their calculated value plus something to provide income to the trust (and of course the trustee)

If we can charge $30/tpu those sale weeks on RCI will cost $150 plus the exchange fee or $350...a typical 12 TPU week will cost $560 or you can stay at the Manhatten club for $285 per night

Sort of like MROP - cool idea

 

[Ridewithme38]

So the answer is for us to creat a trust and let anyone and everyone deed their weeks into it.. Prime weeks can be deeded for free, pink weeks a small fee, white weeks a larger fee and the blue weeks a still larger fee

These fees will be used to buy more weeks for the trust so that the total inventory will be balanced, ie an equal number of red, pink, white and blue weeks.. or more importantly since we are going to deposit everything to RCI, we want a reasonable average cost per TPU...

Then the entire mess deposited to RCI to obtain a big pile of TPU

Each tpu will have a cost basis equal to the total mf of all the weeks in the trust divided by the total number of tpu ....Im betting it comes out to about $25 or less per TPU

Then we assign the tpu to whomever wants them on a onetime use basis at their calculated value plus something to provide income to the trust (and of course the trustee)

If we can charge $30/tpu those sale weeks on RCI will cost $150 plus the exchange fee or $350...a typical 12 TPU week will cost $560 or you can stay at the Manhatten club for $285 per night

I think if we got everyone on this forum to put their Timeshares into that trust we could have a VERY impressive collection