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Creating a liquid timeshare resale market

The cost/value ratio is the same for the mud week owner as it is for the super prime one. It eliminates the unfair special value of prime times and raises the value of mud time so everyone gets a fair shake and no one is subsidized.

.

Unfortunately this is not true. Higher value weeks also get assigned higher points, so the owner is paying the same MF whether they own a doggie week or a tiger week. That's why the high points package weeks go for more money on auction.
 
There are other ways to make fees fairer. One that I proposed to my HOA board was to apply the swimming pool expenses only to members who owned in pool season, which would shift fees to some degree. All but one board members were summer owners and supported the concept as we realized that the offseason is the weak link in timesharing. We knew that getting it past the members was another matter, and when some of us raised trial ballons with other summer members, the issue got absolutely nowhere, so we ended up dropping it rather than have a war on our hands.

As I discussed above, your theory only works to ''level the field'' IF you also change the system for assessing m/f's, and that is going to be almost impossible to do, as a practical matter, above.

One of the flaws of RCI Points valuations is its use of bands, where values are averaged among weeks. That works fine in prime summer but is terribly flawed in spring and fall which the value of weeks increases or decreases incrementally week by week. If you are at the low end of the scale, that average gives you a windfall, but if you are at the high end of the scale, you get cheated. The band concept is also imported into Points Lite. Also, if someone is at the high end of the band, they see the adjacent week, which in reality is not that much different in value given a lot more trading power because it is averaged with a different set of weeks.

But the bottom line is that you cannot hold a gun to peoples heads and force them into points, and for many, like summer owners, they would be fools to make the change.


You insist on saying it won't work because you are paying "two gees plus exchange fee.". That can actually work with tpu's but in any case that's not the system we say can fix the issue. A true points system like RCI points truly levels the field as every point pay the same fee so the more you get the more you pay. The less you use per stay the less it costs.

The cost/value ratio is the same for the mud week owner as it is for the super prime one. It eliminates the unfair special value of prime times and raises the value of mud time so everyone gets a fair shake and no one is subsidized.

I know those that want super valuable prime times for lowet than true cost may hate it but it solves the real underlying problem and makes it fair value to all.

A true solution not a patch or some mandate that may not even be legal such as trying to force Associations to automatically take ownerships from buyers and removing their obligations to pay. Make fees fair and the problem is moot - buyers/takers exist for ownerships with true value.
 
Nice thing about the timeshare havens with year-round traveler demand, based on non-seasonal attractions, is no mud & no dogs -- a few puppies, maybe, but no out & out mutts.

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​

Branson????/
 
No, you are the one who just doesn't get it (right over your head?). Two m/f's & an exchange company membership fee & an exchange fee for one week? That is very poor value, and such a system will turn off more people than it will attract.

The other thing that you don't seem to comprehend is that when someone owns a summer week, then they OWN it. The HOA nor anyone can take it away and give them something else, like points, instead.

Your solution reminds me of ''redistribution of wealth''. I remind you that there are property rights involved that just do not allow your ''solution'' to be carried out. People paid extra to buy those prime weeks and they are entitled to them.

The solution that worked for years for off season owners who were exchangers was the 45 day window, which has now been destroyed by the new RCI. Resorts need to either migrate their owners to other exchange platforms that continue to offer value for off season owners who exchange or to develop resale programs to market weeks to own to use buyers. I have posted at length on other threads about various options that resorts have used to do that. I will repeat that if necessary.

And of course, you still do not hit weeks that are necessarily bad. Week 13 is a spring break week some places. On the OBX, week 46 is part of the major fishing season.

So your solution is nothing except "RCI is bad - they took away the 45 day window"

OH, and for the Nobility owners to just keep paying more and more and more and more as the "peasants" drop off the cart one by one.

Your "let them eat cake" attitude fails to consider who tills the field, fires the ovens and bakes that cake.

And no one here except you gives a rats rear which exact week I use as an example of a mud week.

Come back when you think of a possible solution!
 
Nice thing about the timeshare havens with year-round traveler demand, based on non-seasonal attractions, is no mud & no dogs -- a few puppies, maybe, but no out & out mutts.

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​

That is until they get overbuilt like a couple I could mention on both sides of the Atlantic. Then supply exceeds demand on a regular basis and often by a wide margin, and only a thumb on the scale by an exchange company can keep them from all being bow-wows in a supply and demand based exchange system.
 
John:
Suppose the PRIME week owners don't convert? What do give the DOG week owners, but promises?
PRIME week owners do not want two DOG weeks.
Same for the TPUs. prime owners will stop depositing when all they can get is more(2 for 1 or 3 for 1) MUD weeks

The basis for the points would be (is) the weeks that are foresclosed which do include both prime & non-prime times. Once a prime owner defaults - and the odds are almost as good on those for the average, rather naive owners of prime times as it is for the dog times, the week isn't resold as fixed but placed in the points pool. The percentages should work out to approximately the same as the fixed week distribution was BUT the prime weeks - as they are worth more points - pay more of the fees. But the buyer doesn't know or care. They just buy X points & pay the going rate per point. How they choose to "spend" them is up to them - multiple low point value stays or a super great week for many points - they pay the same cost per point used either way.

Over time it would become a perfect model - short term it is better than fixed weeks as it does spread the cost fairly vs the gouging / subsidized model that same price for every week - and the resulting defaults on the dog times - caused. And virtually any resort can implement it slowly, as they get inventory, over time.

While not perfect- nothing ever is - it's much better than forced deed backs or expensive PCC solutions.

The prime owners lose their elite status but it never should have been that way to start.
 
There's No Business Like Show Business.

Plenty of entertaining shows all year round. Lots of timeshares.

We enjoyed a fun timeshare week there in 2006.

Click here for all the details.

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​
 
Orlando, Las Vegas, Williamsburg, Branson, Alexandria, Etc.
Massanutten....
Nice thing about the timeshare havens with year-round traveler demand, based on non-seasonal attractions, is no mud & no dogs -- a few puppies, maybe, but no out & out mutts.

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​

I don't know about Branson, but most of those locations suffer from the school calender like all other locations...I agree, that Williamsburg i enjoy just as much during my daughter summer break from school as her winter break from school, and i'm going to try to enjoy Massanutten the same way...BUT in between, when their are no school breaks...those are some serious lows for those locations...

I'm not sure if this applies to Branson, i've never been but i picture everyone over 80yrs old and stuffed walker to hover-round to Walker in a 'variety show' so maybe the school calender doesn't apply to there
 
Another Link In The Vacation Village Chain ?

Massanutten.
The Massanutten people did a nice job of turning a ski resort area into a year-round resort with golf, riding stables, indoor water park, varied on-site activities, & I don't know what-all.

Proximity to Virginia's historic & scenic countryside doesn't hurt.

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​
 
Unfortunately this is not true. Higher value weeks also get assigned higher points, so the owner is paying the same MF whether they own a doggie week or a tiger week. That's why the high points package weeks go for more money on auction.

?? Each point costs $X. You don't buy X week - you buy X points. So if you want enough points every use period to get a prime week you pay more then you would have as a subsidized fixed week owner living off the fees of the dog weeks. If you are a bit more aggressive you get less points, pay less per year, and stretch them as best you can. You control the use, the cost & it's the same per point for everyone. So a dog owner pays less - a prime owner more. That reflects the value received which is where fixed weeks / same price for all fails miserably. And helped create the dumping we see going on especially in poor value (dog) ownerships of those costly fixed times.

Yes, RCI changes & rentals also helped fuel the issue but the basis is the unfair distribution of fees. At one time RCI "adjusted" for that using unfair trades but they stopped that. It was never supposed to do that - it was an unintended by product of the flawed weeks system(s). Points actually deals with the problem by smoothing costs to reflect the value you receive.
 
Massanutten....


I don't know about Branson, but most of those locations suffer from the school calender like all other locations...I agree, that Williamsburg i enjoy just as much during my daughter summer break from school as her winter break from school, and i'm going to try to enjoy Massanutten the same way...BUT in between, when their are no school breaks...those are some serious lows for those locations...

I'm not sure if this applies to Branson, i've never been but i picture everyone over 80yrs old and stuffed walker to hover-round to Walker in a 'variety show' so maybe the school calender doesn't apply to there

There are few place we've visited that I wouldn't gladly return to for at least a second visit. Branson is one of them. It held no appeal to us at all but some love it so I'll leave my possible use time to them to enjoy.
 
Woof !

I don't know about Branson, but most of those locations suffer from the school calender like all other locations.
That is why even the highest of the high-demand resort areas may still have some puppy-style doggy weeks.

The flip side is that off-season weeks in those locations, which are low in demand mainly because of the school calendar, are just about as attractive as ever for us semi-senile & walker-bound retired sr. citz. old folks -- not that there's anything wrong with advanced age as long as we're still breathing air.

Plus, those plentiful off-season timeshare weeks are easier & cheaper to snag via Last Call & Instant Exchange -- truly Motel 6 & Super 8 rates for luxury timeshare condos at attractive vacation destinations.

Is this a great country or what ?

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​
 
I have given two solutions. One is to migrate members who own off season to other exchange companies. The other is more appealing because it means not relying on exchangers at all, and that is push HOA inventory primarily to own to use markets. That happens naturally, anyway, as the longer a timeshare is around and weeks change hands, at least in our area, the percentage of own to use people goes up and exchangers goes down. That may be partly a function of not getting the exchange company razzle dazzle at a sales presentation or it may be from other factors. A reseller on another site said virtually all his buyers these days come in wanting specific weeks at specific resorts and have no interest in trading.

Some of the potential own to use markets that I am aware of include:
1) local people who own to use the amenities yearround. Some developers pushed in way back in developer sales, like Wychnor Park in the UK which was marketed by its developer to locals as ''a country club that is also a timeshare''. On resales, Outer Banks Beach Club I and II have made good use of this concept to market resale weeks, and other OBX timeshares have taken advantage of it to a lesser degree. The m/f is well worth it often just for use of the pool, and the timeshare week itself can be used to put up visited relatives or just to get away from the house for a week or even exchanged.
2) One OBX resort, Seascape is adjacent to a golf course at which owners (but not exchangers or renters) have golf priveleges. They have been succesful in selling offseason weeks to golfers. The golf option is, of course, used in HHI, but also in selling Myrtle Beach off season timeshares.
3) Figure out other things going on in the area where you can attract members. On the OBX, fall fishing season, which runs to Thanksgiving has always attracted a strong own to use base. One resort, Ocean Villas, figureed out that duck hunting season coincided with the very lowest part of the timeshare season in December through February and that there were duck blinds within a couple of miles of the resort. They have had some success in marketing those weeks to duck hunters. That part of the year also has the best off shore game fishing, but as far as I know, no resorts have tried to attract that group. Perhaps they tend to just come for a weekend, while the inshore fishermen in the Fall season like to come for a week. Still it is a market that can be tried.
4) Use your own own season own to use members to talk to their friends by offering them some premium for resales based on their referrals. They know other people who think like themselves. One resort I formerly owned at had some interesting off season owner who were real characters. They had one who had bought with her husband all four weeks in February in the same unit at a resort from the developer at developer prices. They lived in tidewater Virginia and loved coming to the Outer Banks for the whole month. The husband had been dead for years, but his widow kept coming. She knew all the other own to use members during that month and liked to befriend exchangers who were there. She arrived with her cats, and would immediate set up her first cocktail part for fellow timesharers, something she did at least once a week while she was there. Another of my resorts had a former HOA president who had bought one January week from the developer. The guy was wealthy and could have afforded any week he wanted but was not into swimming or lying on the beach and he got annoyed at a lot of children being around, so he avoided summer. So January worked fine for him, and he came every year on his week. The point is that there are people who like those weeks, and you just have to find them.

What week you use shows the level of your understanding of the system.



So your solution is nothing except "RCI is bad - they took away the 45 day window"

OH, and for the Nobility owners to just keep paying more and more and more and more as the "peasants" drop off the cart one by one.

Your "let them eat cake" attitude fails to consider who tills the field, fires the ovens and bakes that cake.

And no one here except you gives a rats rear which exact week I use as an example of a mud week.

Come back when you think of a possible solution!
 
The Massanutten people did a nice job of turning a ski resort area into a year-round resort with golf, riding stables, indoor water park, varied on-site activities, & I don't know what-all.

Proximity to Virginia's historic & scenic countryside doesn't hurt.

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​

Yeah, but it is overbuilt for the demand. I like the resort and the area, so the good thing about being overbuilt is that I could snag a cheap RCI rental in ski season.
 
The point is that there are people who like those weeks, and you just have to find them.

What week you use shows the level of your understanding of the system.

But unless they are idiots they can't feel good about paying the same fees as a prime week owner when they would know theirs can't trade (they may not care) or rent for anything near the same value.

Use is good but doesn't undo unfair fee distribution. Merely removing the cost of a seasonal pool isn't going to make any significant improvement to the that which is the single biggest reason weeks get abandoned or sold / given away for nothing.

It's not RCI or II or any other exchange company at fault. It is unfair fees at seasonal areas. Period.
 
The biggest problem is RCI ''adjusting'' values in Points Lite. It is easy to see. Just look at the resorts or resort areas where they regularly give more points lite for deposits than they charge for exchanges. If you have one of these, you are probably happy to ride the gravy train. But on the flip side are the hard to trade into resorts and resort areas where RCI regularly gives fewer points lite for a deposit than they charge to trade in. These owners are getting hosed and need to move to a different exchange company.

There was a fair amount of ''adjusting'' in setting values in RCI Points, but it is worse in Points Lite.


??Yes, RCI changes & rentals also helped fuel the issue but the basis is the unfair distribution of fees. At one time RCI "adjusted" for that using unfair trades but they stopped that. It was never supposed to do that - it was an unintended by product of the flawed weeks system(s). Points actually deals with the problem by smoothing costs to reflect the value you receive.
 
Every time I go to an RCI o other point conversion (and I have been to many for the freebie) presentation when I ask for inventory of PRIME(26-34 weeks, never mind oceanfront(which I own))I get hemming and hawing runaround and shown the door. WHY???????
A ZILLION POINTS WILL NOT GET A UNIT WHICH HAS NOT BEEN CONVERTED.
The sleazy points converters are just an extension of the sleazy developers and their sales weasels. Promise what you can not deliver but not in writing. This includes all the point conversion promoters who post on this BB.
 
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Rentals may be the key after all

Just realized - I'm coming around to Boca's view that fees need to reflect rental rates! But not his idea of how to get there - lower fees for all owners. What is needed is fee phased to the value of the ownership. So if the rental rate in the off season is $50 /night then a 7 day week should pay $350. But prime times rent for $1500 or more per week. So fees for those weeks have to be raised - not reduced - to be in line with rental rates! The resort overall would probably be billing MORE than they do now as rental rates include profit - especially during high demand times - thats how hotels survive & make money.

Maybe he has the answer after all. He's just wrong about the mechanics of it. You can't lower ALL fees for the owners - you have to lower those that get low rental rates and raise those that can demand top value. That's not what he had in mind but it makes far more sense than cutting fees when resorts can't survive if that was implemented across the board.
 
First, EVERY resort area is seasonal. Even London at the high end of the supply / demand curve has seasons when demand outstrips supply even more than it does in the rest of the year.

Fees are based on actual costs of running the resort as you well know from serving on an HOA board. I have yet to see a points grid that is fair, based on the need to be compact and therefore to overaverage, so that is certainly NOT a fair way to apportion costs.

RCI is to blame because it was their promotion of the 45 day window for many years in their promotional films and printed materials, including a constant two page spread in their directory, that was behind the developers selling the offseason weeks on that basis. If RCI had not promoted it so heavily, the developers would have had to find other ways of selling those weeks, like the developer at The Windjammer who decided the market for winter on the Outer Banks was selling to Canadians who would consider it a heat wave compared to their own country at time of the year, and had amazing success with that concept. Most took the path of least resistance and used RCI's marketing approach of pushing the 45-day window. Under Cendent, RCI stabbed its resort affiliates in the back by kicking out this prop that RCI itself had created. This left the HOA's in the lurch, so, yes RCI does have a big part of the blame for this.

But unless they are idiots they can't feel good about paying the same fees as a prime week owner when they would know theirs can't trade (they may not care) or rent for anything near the same value.

Use is good but doesn't undo unfair fee distribution. Merely removing the cost of a seasonal pool isn't going to make any significant improvement to the that which is the single biggest reason weeks get abandoned or sold / given away for nothing.

It's not RCI or II or any other exchange company at fault. It is unfair fees at seasonal areas. Period.
 
Just realized - I'm coming around to Boca's view that fees need to reflect rental rates! But not his idea of how to get there - lower fees for all owners. What is needed is fee phased to the value of the ownership. So if the rental rate in the off season is $50 /night then a 7 day week should pay $350. But prime times rent for $1500 or more per week. So fees for those weeks have to be raised - not reduced - to be in line with rental rates! The resort overall would probably be billing MORE than they do now as rental rates include profit - especially during high demand times - thats how hotels survive & make money.

Maybe he has the answer after all. He's just wrong about the mechanics of it. You can't lower ALL fees for the owners - you have to lower those that get low rental rates and raise those that can demand top value. That's not what he had in mind but it makes far more sense than cutting fees when resorts can't survive if that was implemented across the board.

And what do you do with the profits of such a system? A non-profit corporation, which HOA's are, cannot distribute it to the members or officers. They can sit on the cash or give it to charity, and there is a limit to being able to sit on the cash.
 
...

- snip pages of quaint cottage level "OBX style solutions"
...
What week you use shows the level of your understanding of the system.

Pretentiousness aside:

Apparently you don't understand that here on the west side of the USA the resorts are pretty quiet over thanksgiving - likely because many people go home for that holiday - thus a "mud week".

EUROPE might be different DAAARLING.
 
Just realized - I'm coming around to Boca's view that fees need to reflect rental rates! But not his idea of how to get there - lower fees for all owners. What is needed is fee phased to the value of the ownership. So if the rental rate in the off season is $50 /night then a 7 day week should pay $350. But prime times rent for $1500 or more per week. So fees for those weeks have to be raised - not reduced - to be in line with rental rates! The resort overall would probably be billing MORE than they do now as rental rates include profit - especially during high demand times - thats how hotels survive & make money.

Maybe he has the answer after all. He's just wrong about the mechanics of it. You can't lower ALL fees for the owners - you have to lower those that get low rental rates and raise those that can demand top value. That's not what he had in mind but it makes far more sense than cutting fees when resorts can't survive if that was implemented across the board.

Hey, you might have hit on it! It would be just as easy to mandate "Rental value based fees for maintenance" as it would be to mandate "all intervals must be converted to points" or "all resorts must accept all deed-backs"

They are all likely impossible to implement :eek:
 
Pretentiousness aside:

Apparently you don't understand that here on the west side of the USA the resorts are pretty quiet over thanksgiving - likely because many people go home for that holiday - thus a "mud week".

EUROPE might be different DAAARLING.

I can't picture Europe celebrating Thanksgiving in the same way us Americans do....But your right, i've talked to some family and friends about me taking a yearly vacation on Thanksgiving every year and there first response was "You're not going to spend it with your family?" I don't know the actual stats, but from my little perspective, it seems like it might not be a big 'timeshare vacation' time
 
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