Creating a liquid timeshare resale market

[ronparise]

Please note this is not true for good ski resorts, Hawaii, Newport Beach, Aruba, and the Virgin Islands.

Crummy timeshares--you can fill in the blanks--during offseason are truly worthless, and were so since day one.

When you buy a Brooklyn Bridge, you get what you deserve.

no! ultimately the HOA gets it...They may not deserve it but they get it

these weeks may be worthless and may always have been worthless, but somebody is expected to pay the mf

If its me, and Im expected to pay the same mf every year as the guy that owns a prime ski week...and he can rent his for $1500 a week or more and I cant give mine away ...well... Im walking away,sticking it to the HOA...Sorry that's the way its gonna be

This is the problem we face, and the problem that this thread has been discussing...restating the problem doesnt move us any closer to a solution....any ideas?...what do you tell that prime week owner when his mf goes up 25% due to bad debt?...

I know...give him a fee mud week, and the bill for this years mf...that ought to make him happy...Thats what one of the resorts I own is doing...I have been given the "opportunity" to use another week,,,just pay the years mf

 

[Beefnot]

no! ultimately the HOA gets it...They may not deserve it but they get it

these weeks may be worthless and may always have been worthless, but somebody is expected to pay the mf

If its me, and Im expected to pay the same mf every year as the guy that owns a prime ski week...and he can rent his for $1500 a week or more and I cant give mine away ...well... Im walking away,sticking it to the HOA...Sorry that's the way its gonna be

This is the problem we face, and the problem that this thread has been discussing...restating the problem doesnt move us any closer to a solution....any ideas...what do you tell that prime week owner when his mf goes up 25% due to bad debt...

I know...give him a fee mud week, and the bill this years mf...that ought to make him happy...Thats what one of the resorts I own is doing...I have been given the opportunity to use another week,,,just pay the years mf

Watch out everyone, you are in the presence of a prophet. Ronparise is all about real talk. Uncomfortable, unescapable truth. Preach it.

 

[Carolinian]

The answer to that is to make sure the resort has had a professional reserve study performed and then follows it. If that is done, the reserves will be okay.

When you try to force ''a timeshare'' to take your week back, unless the developer is still active, what you really mean is forcing your fellow owners (who make up the HOA and pay the freight) to take a deadbeat's week back. Do you want to be forced, yourself, to share the burden of deadbeats at your resort? That is what you are proposing.

One very common problem with HOA is that the maintenance fees are not enough to cover long term maintenance. During the first 20-40 years the the owners pay less than they should to save a proper amount of reserves. They the tides change the owners pay more than they should. Then the vacancy number increases and reduces the number of owners who then have to pay more to make up for the non paying units. Then more owners decide to not pay. These are the $1 units on EBay. Their MF are too high.

Having appraisals like buying houses would greatly benefit the industry and change it from high pressure sales.

Requiring the timeshare to deed back a timeshare would go a long way to stabilizing this industry. I do not specify whether the owner owes money or not. If somebody has a timeshare for a couple of years and owes a great deal then the owner has also paid a substantial amount. The timeshare should be in better shape to forgive the remaining debt and resell the unit. If the original concept of buying a perpetual contract without deed back could be declared against the law then existing timeshares could be forced to take back timeshares.

There are not many products that you can buy that have the ability to set your yearly payment each year and prevent you from ending the contract. Taxes fall into this category and there is of course a great deal of government regulation.

 

[ampaholic]

The problem with proposed solutions like Boca's is that before we can agree or disagree with the solution, we have to agree on the problem....
... The first order of business in any problem solving discussion is to define the problem. If we cant cant define the problem it makes no sense to discuss solutions

So ...Let me put forward the problem as I see it:

I own timeshares at several resorts where the annual budget is based on less than 83% of the ownership paying their mf. ie their anticipated bad debt exceeds 17%

Simple arithmetic tells me that my maintenance fees are 20%higher than they should be.

So: I define the problem as bad debt and increasing maintenance fees


Now even if you agree that this is a problem its too soon to discuss solutions, I think you have to first ask why some folks arent paying.

...

no! ultimately the HOA gets it...They may not deserve it but they get it

these weeks may be worthless and may always have been worthless, but somebody is expected to pay the mf

If its me, and Im expected to pay the same mf every year as the guy that owns a prime ski week...and he can rent his for $1500 a week or more and I cant give mine away ...well... Im walking away,sticking it to the HOA...Sorry that's the way its gonna be

This is the problem we face, and the problem that this thread has been discussing...restating the problem doesnt move us any closer to a solution....any ideas?...what do you tell that prime week owner when his mf goes up 25% due to bad debt?...

I know...give him a fee mud week, and the bill for this years mf...that ought to make him happy...Thats what one of the resorts I own is doing...I have been given the "opportunity" to use another week,,,just pay the years mf

Ron I agree that bad debt and increasing maintenance fees is a big issue creating the lack of liquidity in the timeshare market.

A major factor contributing to the bad debt and increasing maintenance fees is the lack of liquidity in the timeshare market causing defaults by owners who are bamboozled (to borrow Alan's phrase) into paying big bucks for a mud week.

So we have these factors feeding each other into a slow death spiral.

What we need is a way out.

Examining your statement about your own HOA I see that 17% of the interval owners are the "bad debt" at your resort.

I don't know if 17% is typical or not, but I don't see why the vast majority (83%) should cave in and let the 17% essentially off the hook scott free by willy nilly taking deed-backs and even advertising the fact.

A foreclosure is not all that expensive and time consuming for the HOA to undergo to regain the week in question and then get it back on the market.

So in short:
a) I agree there is a problem and that it's in a death spiral at some resorts (maybe not WKORV).
b) I agree in thinking Boca's idea is NOT the solution and might even increase the speed of the death spiral.

So Ron - can I now discuss a possible solution?

 

[Carolinian]

I doubt that its true, just that she didnt want to be involved with such a sleezy business...as for me I revel in sleeze

Just because some, like the upfront fee companies, are sleaze does not mean that everyone in the timeshare resale business is. Timesharing Today magazine, for example, helped start a professional association of timeshare brokers who were properly licensed in their states and did not charge upfront fees.

 

[chriskre]

Ron,

Isn't there one of your Ft Myers realtor brethren that deals in somewhat of a select TS resale market? (only Monroe County properties)??

There's a realtor that sells the HGVC resorts. When you check into the resort they have flyers with all the weeks available at that resort. I stayed at Seawatch which is in Ft. Myers and they had several resale weeks for 3-5K. With those they could be converted to HGVC units.

 

[Carolinian]

It depends on the system. For state tax stamps, the register of deeds simply asks verbally how many stamps you want. You don't have to sign anythng, even, to say what the purchase price is. I would take those with a grain of salt. The recitation in the deed is even less reliable. In North Carolina, it is often ''Ten dollars and other good and valuable consideration''.

However, a group of counties in the northeastern part of the state, including Dare County, where the Outer Banks is located, have a local land transfer tax, which is higher than the state tax stamps and requires a sworn affidavit as to purchase price before a deed is approved by the Land Transfer Tax office for recording. Filing a false affidavit constitutes the felony of purjury, so while it may happen every now and then, it is not at all like the tax stamp situation. All of those on the OBX involved in real estate, including timeshare, that I am aware of, follow the law with correct sales prices.

A good example of problems in failing to give the correct amounts are two of the three sales of prime red weeks in Nags Head. One is by an executor of an estate, and is BTW the highest of the reported sales. Is he really going to open himself up for problems by swearing to an accounting in the estate file saying he received one amount and then swearing in an affidavit to the Land Transfer Tax office that he received a different amount? Another is through a timeshare management company. Since every member of the resort can go look at the books and see the amounts recorded there, are they going to open themselves up for problems by recording one amount in the resort's books and swearing to a different amount to the Land Transfer Tax office? Then they get a choice of being invested for the felony of embezzlement or the felony of perjury.

Do reported sales prices mean anything when deed are being recorded? I have had a few where the amount was $500 when I paid more for the deed.

Going forward RTU's may be an easier sell to timeshare marks. It is all in how the sales people think they will sell more timeshares. That may help to solve the problem of what happens when people no longer want a timeshare. But current RTU resorts are probably developer controlled.

So maybe the solution is deeded timeshare but with a defined exit plan. Or the ability to deed back the timeshares to the developer at any time.

Thinking a timeshare will be worth the total value of the resort divided by the amount of weeks sold is dreaming without a good exit plan.

 

[ampaholic]

Ron I agree that bad debt and increasing maintenance fees is a big issue creating the lack of liquidity in the timeshare market.

A major factor contributing to the bad debt and increasing maintenance fees is the lack of liquidity in the timeshare market causing defaults by owners who are bamboozled (to borrow Alan's phrase) into paying big bucks for a mud week.

So we have these factors feeding each other into a slow death spiral.

What we need is a way out.

Examining your statement about your own HOA I see that 17% of the interval owners are the "bad debt" at your resort.

I don't know if 17% is typical or not, but I don't see why the vast majority (83%) should cave in and let the 17% essentially off the hook scott free by willy nilly taking deed-backs and even advertising the fact.

A foreclosure is not all that expensive and time consuming for the HOA to undergo to regain the week in question and then get it back on the market.

So in short:
a) I agree there is a problem and that it's in a death spiral at some resorts (maybe not WKORV).
b) I agree in thinking Boca's idea is NOT the solution and might even increase the speed of the death spiral.

So Ron - can I now discuss a possible solution?

Well not hearing any objection I'll propose this solution:

Points

You heard me - Points - more specifically RCI Points.

If all intervals (even the prime weeks) were converted to RCI Points (well OK Wyndham, MROP, HVAC or whatever "points") all would be well.

How's that you ask?

Well, Points level the usage field - you no longer have the mud week bamboozle-ee stuck using (or trying to exchange) his week 46 (or 13 -any blue week) - he now has options such as saving two years worth of points to get a July 4th week at his same resort (easy since he has owner's ARP from his (converted) mud week) or buying another mud week and adding all the points to get July 4th every year.

NOW MUD WEEKS HAVE VALUE! so why default?

Points level the usage field and since I see no future in trying to level the MF field it's likely the only real workable solution

And we are headed that way anywho.

Now I think I'll go look on eBay for a WorldMark, tee hee

 

[Carolinian]

You picked a very poor example for this post. Week 47 is Thanksgiving and a fairly good week many places. Indeed on the OBX, for example, it gets a decent point allotment in RCI Points, more than any other blue week, more than any white week, and more than quite a few red weeks.

Second the idea of combining two m/f's to exchange is not economical. This was something that points people floated for years, but does not make economic sense. It will drive people out of off season weeks a lot quicker than making them more attractive. Indeed if you look at Sunterra, they sold small points packages, particularly in Europe, and this was the cause of the major members revolts, both the Sunterror website, and the Scottish Action Group Against Sunterra with its Sunterrified website and the Scambulance, a repainted ambulance they used to use as a prop when they picketed Sunterra sales sites. The furor was over small points packages and their inherent unusability.

What worked to give value to off season weeks was something that RCI (and consequently the developers) heavily promoted for years - the 45 day window when trading power was turned off and you could trade any week for any week left in the system. Many bought blue weeks expressly for this purpose, and once Cendent-controlled RCI started backpedalling on the 45 day window, many of those people have started dumping those weeks or trying to. The bean counters at Cendent figured that goosing short term profits by renting out those weeks to the general public was more important than the sustainability of the ownership / exchange model of timesharing. Crystal deHaan, the founder of RCI was a genius and created a great exchange company. It is just too bad that Cendent (now Wyndham) had to come along and ruin it for both resorts and members. Since short shelf life inventory in the travel industry is distressed inventory, the 45 day window made perfect sense for everybody.

When the majority of owners at many resorts are not members of exchange companies and have no interest in exchanging or paying to be a member of an exchange company, no practical solution lies in the realm of exchanging to begin with. At least in my area, the real numbers show that it is not such a big problem anyway. It may be in some other local markets, but so far we only have seat of the pants guesses as to that.

Well not hearing any objection I'll propose this solution:

Points

You heard me - Points - more specifically RCI Points.

If all intervals (even the prime weeks) were converted to RCI Points (well OK Wyndham, MROP, HVAC or whatever "points") all would be well.

How's that you ask?

Well, Points level the usage field - you no longer have the mud week bamboozle-ee stuck using (or trying to exchange) his week 47 - he now has options such as saving two years worth of points to get a July 4th week at his same resort (easy since he has owner's ARP from his (converted) mud week) or buying another mud week and adding all the points to get July 4th every year.

NOW MUD WEEKS HAVE VALUE! so why default?

Points level the usage field and since I see no future in trying to level the MF field it's likely the only real workable solution

And we are headed that way anywho.

Now I think I'll go look on eBay for a WorldMark, tee hee

 

[Carolinian]

I have finished the comparisions for Kill Devil Hills with the same months, August through December in 2007, and the result there is a slight variance in sale prices but not huge from 2011, and a bit over 30% decline in volume in 2011 from the 2007 levels, with some categories impacted more than others.

Kill Devil Hills is just a few miles down Virginia Dare Trail (locally called just ''the beach road'') from Nags Head, but the different trends who that all real estate really is local.

Here are the August-December 2007 numbers:

Prime red - 29 sales - average price $7,810
Pink - 39 sales - average price $2.693
White - 10 sales - average price $1125
Blue - 16 sales - average price $572

During this period, there were 7 deedbacks; 3 blue, 1 white, and 3 pink
There were 17 foreclosures; 11 blue, 3 white, and 3 pink

There were 17 weeks sold by HOA's; 3 blue, 2 white, 9 pink, and 3 prime red

There were 7 weeks deeded to PCC's; 2 blue, 1 white, and 4 pink
There were 7 weeks deeded out by PCC's; 3 blue, 1 white, and 3 pink
(this looks like a wash, but most of those deeded out involved a different PCC from those taking weeks in)

There were 47 intra-family deeds of gift; 19 blue, 2 white, 13 pink, and 13 prime red
There were 11 other indeterminate deeds of gift; 4 blue, 6 pink, and 1 prime red

I included only individual sales during this period, not any transactions by Peppertree, which had been developer at OBBCI&II, or its successor Festiva (which had no control or management rights but did have some developer inventory).

Well, now I have 2011 Kill Devil Hills to add to Nags Head, again August through December, and since KDH includes the highest demand timeshare on the OBX, the prices as expected are higher on resales:

prime red - 12 sales - average price $8775
pink - 35 sales - average price $2461
white - 1 sale - price $500
blue - 18 sales - average price $591

blue sales averages are skewed by two Thanksgiving weeks, which have higher demand than any other blue week, all white weeks, and many pink weeks, one selling for $2,500 and the other for $3,000. Most blue weeks sold for $100 or a little more.

There were 29 intra-family gift deeds, 5 prime red, 16 pink, 3 white, and 5 blue

There were 8 gift deeds to individuals that were indeterminate as to whether they were intra-family, 3 prime red, 1 pink, 1 white, and 3 blue

There were 13 deedbacks, 8 pink, and 5 blue (I really expected more with the big special assessment at Golden Strand)

There were 14 foreclosures, 4 prime red, 9 pink, and 1 blue (all of the prime red foreclosures were at Golden Strand which had the big special assessment).

HOA's sold a total of 10 weeks during this period, mostly at OBBCI&II, and SPM management should be commended on the good prices they are getting.

There were 13 weeks deeded to PCC's, 6 blue, 3 white, and 4 pink.
PCC's deeded out 6 weeks, 1 white and 5 blue (one of the blues was a deedback to the HOA)

With Festiva having taken over the Peppertree / Equivest points club that had some weeks at OBBCI&II, it is also interesting that they deeded out 5 weeks, 2 blue, 2 white, and 1 pink (not included in above totals) and received in one prime red (undoubtedly someone suckered into their points club - boy what a bad deal!)

My initial impression without the comparative figures for the same months of 2007 yet is that prices are holding up, and volume probably too, although it may be a bit off. While I have not stopped to count family gift deeds before, my impression is that they are up. Foreclosures, deedbacks, and PCC transactions also appear to be up a bit.

To compare to eBay, the ones I have watched on auction were prime summer weeks, and there those weeks tended to go in the $2-3,000 range on the OBX at eBay. I do wish I could get some summer weeks for $1 or so to rent out, but no such luck.

I would also note the PCC transaction where they seem to have gotten some poor sap to pay them a big fee just so they could turn around and do the same deedback to the HOA that their victim could have done himself without that big fee. And this is hardly the only time I have seen this dishonest practice by PCC's.

 

[Carolinian]

Combined market comparision - NH & KDH - 2007 vs. 2011

Putting it all together on resales in Nags Head and Kill Devil Hills, comparing August through December 2007, before the great recession and August through December of 2011 yields the following:

2007

Prime Red - 33 sales, average price $7177
Pink - 50 sales, average price $2333
White - 10 sales, average price $1125
Blue - 18 sales, average price $519

2011

Prime Red - 15 sales, average price $8020
Pink - 47 sales, average price $2322
White - 5 sales, average price $240
Blue - 20 sales, average price $490

This shows a bit over a 20% drop in volume of sales, which is certainly not falling off the cliff, and it shows prices relatively stable. Blue and Pink weeks are selling at about the same volume each year. The difference in volume is mainly in the prime red weeks. Average prices for blue weeks and pink weeks are also remarkably stable. Prime red weeks also show a variance in price of only about 10%, and that has actually gone UP.

These are the best two OBX towns for this comparision as all resorts are owner controlled and no longer have developers actively selling. Hatteras doesn't have enought volume, with only one resort with 4 units, and Duck and Kitty Hawk have too much developer activity which distorts the results.

I would love to see some Tuggers run the numbers in some other resort areas, so we have real numbers from the broad market to compare, not just impressions from the eBay bargain basement.

One cavaet on blue weeks is that Thanksgiving week usually sells for a lot more than any other blue week on the OBX, and if you excluded the week 47's the average price for blue weeks would drop substantially.

 

[ampaholic]

You picked a very poor example for this post. Week 47 is Thanksgiving and a fairly good week many places.

OK for my point make it week 46 or week 13 - ANY mud week - GET IT?

You miss the point (right over your head?) and I am beginning to see a lack of a solution idea from you:

I said ALL the weeks were in the points system - as it is right now the "prime" weeks avoid the points systems because of speculators etc.

Yea, of course if you only have mud weeks in the system then it is only 3/4 of a system and it struggles to perform up to expectations.

So the real solution is for RCI, Hilton, Disney et al to figure out a way to limit speculators and get all intervals into the points system.

As an added benefit to my system - resorts that keep their mf to points ratio in line will be rewarded with near 100% "occupancy" as their intervals from prime to mud will have value.

 

[Carolinian]

No, you are the one who just doesn't get it (right over your head?). Two m/f's & an exchange company membership fee & an exchange fee for one week? That is very poor value, and such a system will turn off more people than it will attract.

The other thing that you don't seem to comprehend is that when someone owns a summer week, then they OWN it. The HOA nor anyone can take it away and give them something else, like points, instead.

Your solution reminds me of ''redistribution of wealth''. I remind you that there are property rights involved that just do not allow your ''solution'' to be carried out. People paid extra to buy those prime weeks and they are entitled to them.

The solution that worked for years for off season owners who were exchangers was the 45 day window, which has now been destroyed by the new RCI. Resorts need to either migrate their owners to other exchange platforms that continue to offer value for off season owners who exchange or to develop resale programs to market weeks to own to use buyers. I have posted at length on other threads about various options that resorts have used to do that. I will repeat that if necessary.

And of course, you still do not hit weeks that are necessarily bad. Week 13 is a spring break week some places. On the OBX, week 46 is part of the major fishing season.

OK for my point make it week 46 or week 13 - ANY mud week - GET IT?

You miss the point (right over your head?) and I am beginning to see a lack of a solution idea from you:

I said ALL the weeks were in the points system - as it is right now the "prime" weeks avoid the points systems because of speculators etc.

Yea, of course if all you have in points is mud weeks then it is only 3/4 of a system and it struggles to perform up to expectations.

So the real solution is for RCI, Hilton, Disney et al to figure out a way to limit speculators and get all intervals into the points system.

As an added benefit to my system - resorts that keep their mf to points ratio in line will be rewarded with near 100% "occupancy" as their intervals from prime to mud will have value.

 

[timeos2]

Well not hearing any objection I'll propose this solution:

Points

You heard me - Points - more specifically RCI Points.

If all intervals (even the prime weeks) were converted to RCI Points (well OK Wyndham, MROP, HVAC or whatever "points") all would be well.

How's that you ask?

Well, Points level the usage field - you no longer have the mud week bamboozle-ee stuck using (or trying to exchange) his week 46 (or 13 -any blue week) - he now has options such as saving two years worth of points to get a July 4th week at his same resort (easy since he has owner's ARP from his (converted) mud week) or buying another mud week and adding all the points to get July 4th every year.

NOW MUD WEEKS HAVE VALUE! so why default?

Points level the usage field and since I see no future in trying to level the MF field it's likely the only real workable solution

And we are headed that way anywho.

Now I think I'll go look on eBay for a WorldMark, tee hee

I know there are those that feel "points" are the Devil but I agree that a good points system can easily fix the "non-valued" week issue by tying on going costs to real value not an arbitrary week of small value paying the same as the prime time owner.

It is a great solution.

 

[AwayWeGo]

Hurdles To Clear In Trying To Equalize Timeshare Values Via Points.

I know there are those that feel "points" are the Devil but I agree that a good points system can easily fix the "non-valued" week issue by tying on going costs to real value not an arbitrary week of small value paying the same as the prime time owner.

It is a great solution.

Points -- RCI points, TPUs ("pointe lite"), Wyndham points, DRI points, & what have you -- all seem to do a decent job of equalizing timeshare exchange values.

The weenie is in equalizing timeshare values in the eyes of the taxman &, more important, in the statutory requirements for apportioning timeshare maintenance fees.

As I understand it -- not that I understand much of this -- many if not most jurisdictions require timeshare resorts to charge all owners of comparable-size units the same maintenance fee amount. Charging extra for ocean views & prime-demand high-season weeks is not allowed.

If that truly is the case, how can HOAs get by that when looking to set up a sliding scale of maintenance fees based on high- & mid- & low-demand seasons ?

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​

 

[ronparise]

Well not hearing any objection I'll propose this solution:

Points

You heard me - Points - more specifically RCI Points.

If all intervals (even the prime weeks) were converted to RCI Points (well OK Wyndham, MROP, HVAC or whatever "points") all would be well.

How's that you ask?

Well, Points level the usage field - you no longer have the mud week bamboozle-ee stuck using (or trying to exchange) his week 46 (or 13 -any blue week) - he now has options such as saving two years worth of points to get a July 4th week at his same resort (easy since he has owner's ARP from his (converted) mud week) or buying another mud week and adding all the points to get July 4th every year.

NOW MUD WEEKS HAVE VALUE! so why default?

Points level the usage field and since I see no future in trying to level the MF field it's likely the only real workable solution

And we are headed that way anywho.

Now I think I'll go look on eBay for a WorldMark, tee hee

No objection at all..except that I just got out of bed,,,,contrary to popular belief, I do have a life outside of TUG

One of the resorts I own is doing just what you suggest, converting to RCI points. and I applaud their decision, Now the week I own can be used for something other than just that week at that resort...In fact my week even though is not allocated very many points, will convert to enough points to get 2 of RCIs last minute reservations...and they are selling HOA owned weeks with points included

As usual the devil is in the details. The problems with their approach are several

1) I can already deposit my week with RCI weeks and get more TPU exchanges than if I were to convert to points and get points exchanges..I dont see the advantage to convert.

2) The mf to points ratio is too high. If we agree that a penny a point is about right and my week would convert at two and a half cents my week is still a dog, but now its clear its a dog compared to other points resorts and liquidity is not improved

3) My resort has hired company to market and sell what they own...The hope is that including points would make the job easier...I think it would make giving them away easier..trying to sell this stuff is doomed to failure

4) They want us paying members to convert to points too...and they want to charge us...That wont work


You say "NOW MUD WEEKS HAVE VALUE! so why default?" and I agree but the value is still less than zero. ........as long as I can buy penny a point points at VV@P for a dollar on ebay my 2,5 cents per point week is not salable. I still have to pay someone to take it away. I would rather pay the hoa than pay a PCC, but my hoa wont accept it....as I see it still not liquid

So I think you are on to something here as long as we dont charge owners for the conversion and we give away the HOA owned weeks with points included. now all we have to to develop a marketplace for this stuff ...But thats were we began this conversation

By the way...Im shopping Worldmark too...Why do they have value and why are there several brokers actively selling this stuff? I suggest its because the resorts are ok, and well located, and mf is cheap, and owners can swap credits among themselves freely. I feel confident that I can buy here and when I want to sell, Ill be able to. ...maybe the answer to the problem we have been discussing is hidden within the worldmark model...

 

[Carolinian]

I know there are those that feel "points" are the Devil but I agree that a good points system can easily fix the "non-valued" week issue by tying on going costs to real value not an arbitrary week of small value paying the same as the prime time owner.

It is a great solution.

That assumes m/f's based on # of points, as otherwise the value of points on an off season week for a standard m/f is very obvious poor value, and only the gullible are going to buy it.

The point has already been raised that some state laws simply do not permit setting up m/f's based on things like points. They require each week pay its proportionate share. This concept would be a legal non-starter in those states.

But even where it is allowed by state law, it is not going to get passed by existing HOA's. Amending Declarations of Covenants is a very difficult process, requiring a high supermajority (and usually of all owners not merely of a quorum of owners) or sometimes even unanimous consent. If it is proposed to cram points down everyone's throat, then it almost certainly would take unanimous consent. That is just not going to happen. When a majority of owners are not even exchangers and do not want to be, as at many resorts, they would never vote for such a thing. Why be compelled to play reservation roulette when you bought the week you want and are happy with it? Even many exchangers are very allergic to the points concept, which is why RCI Points hit a plateau with existing owners, and RCI had to frogmarch the rest into points with Points Lite.

The 45 day window solved this situation for many years until RCI jerked that rug out from under HOA's. Today's RCI offers no substitute. The only realistic options for HOA's are 1) gearing resales to people who will own to use, and/or 2) migrating members to other exchange companies. I think II still has some equivalent of the 45 day window.

And most important, the idea of pay two m/f's plus and exchange company membership plus an exchange fee to get one timeshare week is going to be a non-starter for most people. It is very, very poor value.

 

[e.bram]

Amp:
Are you now or did you ever sell points. You sound like the points salesmen deal with at every TS visit. Question I ask them and now you. How many PRIME weeks owners converted to points. Show me your prime inventory. Next thing I know, I get my freebie and am ushered out.
All the points owners have is choice of MUD weeks, and a conversion and RCI expense.

 

[timeos2]

No, you are the one who just doesn't get it (right over your head?). Two m/f's & an exchange company membership fee & an exchange fee for one week? That is very poor value, and such a system will turn off more people than it will attract.

The other thing that you don't seem to comprehend is that when someone owns a summer week, then they OWN it. The HOA nor anyone can take it away and give them something else, like points, instead.

Your solution reminds me of ''redistribution of wealth''. I remind you that there are property rights involved that just do not allow your ''solution'' to be carried out. People paid extra to buy those prime weeks and they are entitled to them.

The solution that worked for years for off season owners who were exchangers was the 45 day window, which has now been destroyed by the new RCI. Resorts need to either migrate their owners to other exchange platforms that continue to offer value for off season owners who exchange or to develop resale programs to market weeks to own to use buyers. I have posted at length on other threads about various options that resorts have used to do that. I will repeat that if necessary.

And of course, you still do not hit weeks that are necessarily bad. Week 13 is a spring break week some places. On the OBX, week 46 is part of the major fishing season.

You insist on saying it won't work because you are paying "two gees plus exchange fee.". That can actually work with tpu's but in any case that's not the system we say can fix the issue. A true points system like RCI points truly levels the field as every point pay the same fee so the more you get the more you pay. The less you use per stay the less it costs.

The cost/value ratio is the same for the mud week owner as it is for the super prime one. It eliminates the unfair special value of prime times and raises the value of mud time so everyone gets a fair shake and no one is subsidized.

I know those that want super valuable prime times for lowet than true cost may hate it but it solves the real underlying problem and makes it fair value to all.

A true solution not a patch or some mandate that may not even be legal such as trying to force Associations to automatically take ownerships from buyers and removing their obligations to pay. Make fees fair and the problem is moot - buyers/takers exist for ownerships with true value.

 

[KarenP]

The free market will create liquidity with these unwanted timeshares as people get creative in dumping timeshares.

Some exit strategies could involve setting up family trusts where the good assets are separated from the bad and then impoverishing the owner to where they only have a social security income.

Younger people might consider bankruptcy and it might occur to this person to charge a cash fee to take over other peoples unwanted timeshare property.

I believe some people create LLC's that for a fee will take your timeshare and then go belly up. Doing this on purpose is securities fraud.

Eventually the free market system will find solutions to the many worthless timeshare contracts. Until then, imo, RTU and the few really good timeshares would be the smart buy if your wanting an exit stratagy.

After reading all this thread and thinking about it, I think you have hit the nail on the head. The free market has already figured out a way to deal with resales, we just don't like it. Also, since timeshares are so very different, maybe you have to look at each timeshare as its own market and can't really have a mega-market that would apply to all timeshares.

 

[e.bram]

John:
Suppose the PRIME week owners don't convert? What do give the DOG week owners, but promises?
PRIME week owners do not want two DOG weeks.
Same for the TPUs. prime owners will stop depositing when all they can get is more(2 for 1 or 3 for 1) MUD weeks

 

[Nolathyme]

West Coast happier than East Coast?

By the way...Im shopping Worldmark too...Why do they have value and why are there several brokers actively selling this stuff? I suggest its because the resorts are ok, and well located, and mf is cheap, and owners can swap credits among themselves freely. I feel confident that I can buy here and when I want to sell, Ill be able to. ...maybe the answer to the problem we have been discussing is hidden within the worldmark model...[/QUOTE]

I looked at the Worldmark resort map, they are in some great locations. Many resorts up and down the west coast, Vegas, , New Mex, Ariz, skiing...

I bet, in general, west coast timeshare owners are happier than east coast timeshare owners.

If it wasn't for Florida /Orlando those blue white weeks would be worth -7K.

 

[timeos2]

There are creative ways around the all weeks pay the same rules if the Association works at it. It may involve creation of a trust with the weeks them using RTU licenses to back the points assigned and the proper percentage of fees

Its a different approach that's needed & can work to go a long way toward solving the rrsale / value problems.

 

[chriskre]

Well not hearing any objection I'll propose this solution:

Points

You heard me - Points - more specifically RCI Points.

If all intervals (even the prime weeks) were converted to RCI Points (well OK Wyndham, MROP, HVAC or whatever "points") all would be well.

How's that you ask?

Well, Points level the usage field - you no longer have the mud week bamboozle-ee stuck using (or trying to exchange) his week 46 (or 13 -any blue week) - he now has options such as saving two years worth of points to get a July 4th week at his same resort (easy since he has owner's ARP from his (converted) mud week) or buying another mud week and adding all the points to get July 4th every year.

NOW MUD WEEKS HAVE VALUE! so why default?

Points level the usage field and since I see no future in trying to level the MF field it's likely the only real workable solution

And we are headed that way anywho.

Now I think I'll go look on eBay for a WorldMark, tee hee

Points, sheesh I said that about 4 paqes ago.

I know it's no secret that I love points ownerships although I do own two fixed and one floating ownership as well.

I love how DVC does points. You don't buy a week you only buy points. Maybe since it's RTU they can get away with this as opposed to a permanent deed. Dunno.

They just deed a week for inventory but you buy a block of points. Everybody pays the same MF/point ratio in the same resort. Everyone. So the 50 point owner pays the small MF per point as the 1000 point owner. How Disney can pull it off while others don't seem to be able to is a mystery to me. If you own a small points package then I guess it could be considered a mud week ownership but you'd still be able to book 4 nights prime time or combine two years to do a big prime time trip every other year. There is no class distinction in DVC.

Maybe it's too late for the older resorts to do something like this but certainly they could offer the RCI points conversion at cost. I have heard it's only $250 one time. I think many would be willing to do that if it was an option. Of course RCI has already attempted at offering even those resistant to points their mandatory points program which of course we will never agree on.

Obviously RCI believes that points is the answer one way or another and II seems to be going that way as well. Not to mention Marriott etc. Now if only those points would transfer on the resale market then we'd have something that would work long term, but the Marriott's of this world are killing off their own golden goose by punishing the resale buyers. Why would they care anyway, they're outta there.

 

[AwayWeGo]

Orlando, Las Vegas, Williamsburg, Branson, Alexandria, Etc.

Suppose the PRIME week owners don't convert? What do give the DOG week owners, but promises?
PRIME week owners do not want two DOG weeks.
Same for the TPUs. prime owners will stop depositing when all they can get is more(2 for 1 or 3 for 1) MUD weeks

Nice thing about the timeshare havens with year-round traveler demand, based on non-seasonal attractions, is no mud & no dogs -- a few puppies, maybe, but no out & out mutts.

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​