Charge back from Paypal for rental -- after renter checked in!

[rickandcindy23]

I never think of the police in civil matters like this. But many civil matters are also criminal matters.

Judy, I am sorry you are having this problem. I wonder if these issues are going to become more common?

I think Jennie's advice is very good. BoyBlue used to be a very frequent poster here, and he could be of some help, being local.

 

[AFARR]

If nothing else...

Having the local police identify the person in the unit (and writing a police report, which you should be able to obtain) may help in the future.

As someone mentioned above, they're not likely to kick the renter out...but, if you have positive identification, made by a police officer, you may be able to file charges against that individual in the future. Restitution may be part of their judgement (if it can be pursued).

AFARR

 

[Tommart]

My Opinion

OK, here is my tale of woe!
......
Do you think there's any chance Paypal will find in my favor?
......

I view Paypal almost like a bank.

Had the renter sent you a check signed by someone else, and it bounced, it's not up to the bank to make the check good. It's up to you.

If the renter has a paypal account, Paypal will make good for the money by charging whatever account the renter provided to establish the account -- assuming it's still good.

If the person is not a paypal member or the original account is now closed, I do not believe that paypal will make good the payment. But try. I may be wrong.

In my opinion, if the renter is not a paypal member, it's now a police matter. I would file charges that the person used an unauthorized credit card for payment.

In fact, even if paypal is able to charge the renter's account and pay you, I would file charges.

Sorry for your troubles. I could see myself doing exactly what you did.

Paypal is geared more to protect the buyer, than the seller.

Tom

 

[klynn]

Has anyone else ever run into a problem like this?

Yes, it happened once to me with a PP transaction. PP said the transaction was fraudulent and took the funds out of my account. When I contacted the person who sent the money she said her credit card had been stolen after she paid me. She had told the police and PP what transactions were authorized by her, but PP canceled ALL transactions, event the ones made by her. She just sent me payment again with a different card and all was fine. Perhaps this is what happened in your case? Have you tried to call the person who sent you the money (not the renter)?

 

[BocaBum99]

Paypal is geared more to protect the buyer, than the seller.

Tom

I don't think I agree that Paypal is geared more to protect the buyer. If the transaction is more than 2-3 months old, Paypal is extremely slow in investigating charge backs and disputes. Let's say you pay in full for a rental for next March. You show up and there is no unit because your confirmation letter reflects a unit that was cancelled. A Paypal dispute will do nothing to help you at that time.

My experience is that Paypal acts like any other merchant bank. They hold the funds in question and they seek proof that the transaction was real or fraudulent. They hope that there is a resolution between buyer and seller. If not, then they will make a judgement based on the evidence submitted.

I have received payment from Paypal for several thousand transactions over the years. In that time, I have only had 3 charge backs. 2 were disputed by a spouse that didn't know their husband or wife made the charge. The third was because we added the wrong name as a guess. All 3 were resolved without further investigation by Paypal.

Think about that chargeback record. Not many businesses have that low of a charge back rate. So, this type of scam isn't very prevalent. To protect yourself in a timeshare rental, I use the following policy:

Always have a rental agreement where the rental agreement matches the person paying. There can be a third party guest. But, the signature you get must be from the person paying. Use language like "rented by John Smith for use by Andy Jones" in the agreement. Then, you can add Andy Jones as the guest, but collect payment from John Smith. Keep a copy of the confirmation letter, too.

If you get a chargeback, you provide to paypal the following:

1) Rental agreement with a signature of the person paying
2) Confirmation letter proving you got a reservation for the guest.
3) Call the resort to verify who checked in.

Once you have those 3 things, you can win a credit card dispute from virtually any merchant bank or credit card company.

The only time you lose is if there was a fraudulent transaction with a stolen credit card. You can't do much to prevent that. However, there is usually plenty of time between collection of payment to check in. If it is more than a couple of weeks, then it's like you will find out before the guest checks in.

 

[theo]

Clarification requested...

I have received payment from Paypal for several thousand transactions over the years....Think about that chargeback record.

Call me a cynic, but with all due respect, without knowing what proportion of those "several thousand transactions" were actually rentals (i.e., uncovered non-tangibles transactions), it's a bit hard to be impressed by the success rate cited.

I have a few hundred successful PayPal transactions myself, with no problems or "chargebacks" at all at any time --- but every last one of those transactions was for either purchase or sale of an "in hand" item. Accordingly, I could claim either a 100% or a 0% "success rate" with my PayPal rental transactions...

 

[JudyS]

Thank you for all of the suggestions!

I heard back from someone on the fraud department at Atlantis this morning. She wants to have the local police investigate, and asked me to send an email stating the facts of the case and requesting an investigation. I did that, and included a scan of a signed version of the letter. I also had to state that I would press charges in the US, if appropriate.

Although some of the suggestions here sound good (fax a letter to the renter demanding payment, call the front desk and tell them he isn't entitled to the room, etc) I don't want to interfere with the investigation by the Atlantis and the local police. So, I am going to hold off on further action, unless the Atlantis or the police request that I do more.

I still need to try contacting Paypal again, although right now I am very tired! (I was stressed out and didn't sleep much last night.) They have been the weakest link in dealing with this problem. I couldn't get their fraud resolution form to work, I spend an hour on hold with them last night and got very little information, and I can't find out anything about the credit card used, which the Atlantis really wants to know.

 

[theo]

You're a trusting soul...

I heard back from someone on the fraud department at Atlantis this morning. She wants to have the local police investigate, and asked me to send an email stating the facts of the case and requesting an investigation. I did that, and included a scan of a signed version of the letter. I also had to state that I would press charges in the US, if appropriate.

Although some of the suggestions here sound good (fax a letter to the renter demanding payment, call the front desk and tell them he isn't entitled to the room, etc) I don't want to interfere with the investigation by the Atlantis and the local police. So, I am going to hold off on further action, unless the Atlantis or the police request that I do more.

Personally, I don't know of any resorts with a "fraud department"; you may be placing a whole of trust and confidence in the facility...

What substantive assurance do you have that any effort will be undertaken by the resort "fraud department"? At the very least, I would strongly suggest making your own phone call to the Nassau Police in the very near future, if only to confirm to your own personal satisfaction that they have, in fact, been contacted, adequately informed, and have become involved. Time, remember, is not on your side here...

Just my own $0.02 worth (and it's exactly what I would do in your shoes).

 

[wackymother]

Judy, I'm so sorry you're going through this. What a nightmare!

 

[rickandcindy23]

Call me a cynic, but with all due respect, without knowing what proportion of those "several thousand transactions" were actually rentals (i.e., uncovered non-tangibles transactions), it's a bit hard to be impressed by the success rate cited.

I think Boca is talking about his own timeshare transactions, and our own daughter's timeshare biz (most all are Wyndham rentals) used to use Paypal exclusively, and we indeed used it hundreds of times in the first year, so I think what Boca says is very relevant here. We now process cards through Costco's company (Elavon???). It's cheaper for us, and the renter can go to our secure page and enter their payment info.

 

[theo]

We'll see...

I think Boca is talking about his own timeshare transactions......I think what Boca says is very relevant here.

No offense intended, but I'd prefer to see Boca clarify and confirm for himself particularly since, unless I am mistaken, I vaguely recall that he is also involved in some sort of sales. Personally, I see a clear and distinct difference between sales and rentals (which, unlike sales, are uncovered non-tangibles transactions).

 

[BocaBum99]

Call me a cynic, but with all due respect, without knowing what proportion of those "several thousand transactions" were actually rentals (i.e., uncovered non-tangibles transactions), it's a bit hard to be impressed by the success rate cited.

I have a few hundred successful PayPal transactions myself, with no problems or "chargebacks" at all at any time --- but every last one of those transactions was for either purchase or sale of an "in hand" item. Accordingly, I could claim either a 100% or a 0% "success rate" with my PayPal rental transactions...

I do around 750 timeshare rentals per year averaging around $500-1000/transaction. Most of the transactions I mentioned are timeshare rentals. I'd say about 500-600 paypal rental transactions per year. I do have other transaction types as well. But, I wasn't thinking of those.

Only this year, I started doing last minute rentals on eBay which would be much more succeptible to this type of scam. I was shocked to learn just how many people will rent a timeshare unit for check in the next day. If you don't believe me, just go to my eBay store. It's not hard to find.

I used to only accept checks when I first started. I was shocked at just how many people would send money to someone they didn't know from a hole in the ground.

I also used to require security deposits. It turns out that the damage rate by timeshare renters is even lower than their charge back rate. I have only had 2 units damaged out of several thousand timeshare rentals. One cost me $400. The renter got a bad unit and went wild on it with superglue. The other just checked out late and cost me about $100.

Believe what I post, or don't believe it. I really don't care. But, I stand by my assertion based on over 5 years of transaction data that the timeshare rental business is one of the safest businesses out there from a payment and damage point of view.

I have 2 residential real estate rentals and I have more problems for those rentals every month than I have had in my entire experience with timeshare rentals.

I think others who are really experienced in timeshare rentals can verify what I am stating.

 

[BocaBum99]

I forgot to mention that only time I really got burned is when an owner went belly up and lost his unit last minute. I had to fork out $2500 to replace the unit for my renter. That was an expensive lesson that I hope not to repeat any time soon.

 

[theo]

Request for clarification was not disbelief...

Believe what I post, or don't believe it. I really don't care. But, I stand by my assertion based on over 5 years of transaction data that the timeshare rental business is one of the safest businesses out there from a payment and damage point of view.

I have never had any reason to doubt anything you have ever posted, and I don't now, so please don't get all huffy. Your original post made absolutely no reference to rentals, just to "several thousand transactions". Accordingly, I merely asked for clarification. Please don't take offense at a simple request for some specificity; certainly no offense was ever intended.

 

[am1]

Regardless of what others say here it is privacy issue. I will be shocked if the resort and local police get involved. They have a lot more to lose than to gain by getting involved. Just think of the Tripadvisor review that the guest would post. The resort wants the room occupied so they earn extra revenue.

Follow up with paypal and then try your local police for credit card fraud and then small claims court. Also also as has been said google their name and see where that gets you.

 

[BocaBum99]

I have never had any reason to doubt anything you have ever posted, and I don't now, so please don't get all huffy. Your original post made absolutely no reference to rentals, just to "several thousand transactions". Accordingly, I merely asked for clarification. Please don't take offense at a simple request for some specificity; certainly no offense was ever intended.

If you didn't mean any offense, all you had to do was ask a direct question instead of starting it with "call me a cynic"

Most people who read this thread probably interpreted your message as challenging the veracity of my post as some type of smoke and mirrors to somehow convey misleading information. It was not.

 

[ondeadlin]

I have never had any reason to doubt anything you have ever posted, and I don't now, so please don't get all huffy. Your original post made absolutely no reference to rentals, just to "several thousand transactions". Accordingly, I merely asked for clarification. Please don't take offense at a simple request for some specificity; certainly no offense was ever intended.

Tone is hard to read on message boards. People often read things into posts that the original poster didn't intend.

As an example, I find your posts much huffier than Boca's. Your aggressive questioning and highlighting is borderline inappropriate IMO. The way someone asks questions often says a lot about them, particularly on TUG, particularly when dealing with a long-time member who is sharing their experience.

 

[rickandcindy23]

If you didn't mean any offense, all you had to do was ask a direct question instead of starting it with "call me a cynic"

Most people who read this thread probably interpreted your message as challenging the veracity of my post as some type of smoke and mirrors to somehow convey misleading information. It was not.

I was trying to relate our own experiences as well, but he didn't see that part of my post, apparently. Count me as a person who is offended.

 

[ada903]

Peace! We're all trying to help Judy in our own way!

Judy you should find a way to let the renter know about all these things happening - going to Court, engaging the police, looking up their employer, etc. You may be surprised to find that they get scared enough to fork over the payment and apologize for the "confusion". I would fax a letter and leave voicemails on their room phone, I guarantee you that even if he is not picking up calls, he will read a fax and listen to messages. At least make sure he is not enjoying that vacation, how can you enjoy it thinking the police may be around the corner possibly to kick you out, and a lawsuit is waiting for you back home?

 

[theo]

Get over it...

Your aggressive questioning and highlighting is borderline inappropriate IMO.

You are certainly entitled to your personal opinion, but I will leave it to TUG moderators to determine and advise if or when my tone, input, or style is in fact "borderline inappropriate".

Highlighting is merely to emphasize content. If you have a problem with it, or find it too "aggressive" for you, simply employ the "ignore" function in the User CP; I most certainly won't feel "hurt" in any way.

Warm and fuzzy, or vague and ambiguous is definitely not my style. It has never been, nor will it ever be.
I offer no apology for efforts (past, present or future) to seek clarification and specificity when I find that the absence of same clouds the discussion at hand. That much clearly stated, I guess I should be more mindful of possible entirely unintended interpretations of my own words.

 

[Tommart]

I don't think I agree that Paypal is geared more to protect the buyer.....

Yes, fortunately this doesn't happen that often, and it hasn't happened to you or me.

If someone bought something from you with a stolen credit card through paypal, and the owner of the card rejected the charge, do you believe that paypal must still pay you? I don't. There's a better chance getting funds from the credit card company.

I use paypal myself -- probably 40-50 times, and I'm glad that I have it. Paypal requires that they have "my" checking account in case I don't deliver on a promise to mail something. They do not require a validated checking or credit card from all buyers.

They are set up to give confidence to the buyer that they have protection if they buy something from a person with a paypal account.

 

[theo]

Fair enough...

If you didn't mean any offense, all you had to do was ask a direct question instead of starting it with "call me a cynic"

A lame (and clearly ineffective) attempt at wry humor on my part....

Your track record of knowledge, experience and credibility is long and well established here. I guess that fact was (to me) a "stipulated fact" before even inquiring for details. If my poor choice of words came off as offensive, never intended, please accept my apology.

 

[Tommart]

Credit Card Company

Thank you for all of the suggestions!

I heard back from someone on the fraud department at Atlantis this morning.....

.....So, I am going to hold off on further action, unless the Atlantis or the police request that I do more.....

I agree with your approach.

At some point, you may want to talk to the credit card company. They may still pay you and write it off as fraud.

Tom

 

[BocaBum99]

One thing we do not know is whether or not the renter is the scammer. It could be that there is a third party who collected money from the guest who checked in and stiffed Judy with a fraudulent transaction. His profit is the money collected from the guest.

I can see this as a problematic scam for last minute timeshare renters. 2-4 weeks or less from check in are at risk for this scam.

The way to reduce the risk of this type of last minute transaction is to require a copy of the driver's license of the person paying if it happens less than 2 weeks from check in. However, if a wallet was stolen, they may have the driver's license, too.

But, the issue for the scammer will be the time elapsed between stealing the wallet or purse and the time the owner reports it to their credit card issuer to turn off the card.

I am interested in this scam because this is a new risk item that could be a new trend in the industry that would directly impact me.

 

[BocaBum99]

A lame (and clearly ineffective) attempt at wry humor on my part....

Your track record of knowledge, experience and credibility is long and well established here. I guess that fact was (to me) a "stipulated fact" before even inquiring for details. If my poor choice of words came off as offensive, never intended, please accept my apology.

No problem. Sorry to everyone that it got uncomfortable. I get grumpy every now and then.