Coylumbridge Scotland Purchase

[CalGalTraveler]

So help me to understand this: Is this a land and property trust similar to MVC DP trust in which HC holders own a share of the land and property trust. Key difference is your shares are a fixed week vs. points and the trust only consists of one property?

 

[ocdb8r]

I think that's probably a useful way of looking at it, although I suspect it is it's own Scottish "flavor" of such an arrangement. Bottom line, I think that's a more useful way of thinking about it compared to as a lease/RTU.

I might add, it's likely better than the MVC DP trust as I don't know that points owners have a right to any distribution on liquidation (unless maybe the whole trust is liquidated....never going to happen, whereas in Scotland it's at least remotely likely).

 

[drucifer]

So help me to understand this: Is this a land and property trust similar to MVC DP trust in which HC holders own a share of the land and property trust. Key difference is your shares are a fixed week vs. points and the trust only consists of one property?

The difference is the difference between having an ownership deed in a property and owning a share of stock in a company that owns a property.

Should the deed owners, through the board with a vote, or the "holiday certificate" holders, through voting their shares (certificates), choose to approve something (or disapprove something), then as one winnows it down, the difference becomes quite a bit smaller.

I mean, does owning a "stock certificate" with rights to one specific week in one specific unit of accommodation really differ from owning a deed that has a 1/50th fractional ownership to a specific unit a specific week? It seems the only difference is how it relates to the government (a security vs. a recorded deed). Arguably, the certificate is a better deal as it can be traded/exchanged/sold without the need for a title search, tax stamps, or a closing agent/attorney.

 

[Eric B]

That sounds similar to owning a timeshare/fractional through a fidecomiso for one in Mexico in the restricted zone.

 

[ski_sierra]

I sought specific assurance on this from Neil Hutchinson, Senior Vice President at HGV, and he replied as follows: ‘Please rest assured that HGV is fully committed to continuing our relationship with Craigendarroch Lodges. We are pleased with the continued improvement in our working relationship with your committee and owners’.

generally corporations make such statements when they are going to do the opposite. E.g. there are going to be no layoffs after a merger. All downgrades are dressed up as enhancements.

I don't believe anything HGVC says.

 

[CalGalTraveler]

Thanks all for clarifying.

@Lodemia Great stock analogy to get my head around this.

This is exactly my thought. Given all HGV properties are owned by owners via a deed or share of a trust with both offering rights to use during a specific time period. Both have HOAs representing owners. HGVC manages the resort.

So does it really matter that HGVC has "developed" vs. "Affiliate" resort if the resort has sold out and they just manage the resorts? Can't they simply walk from managing any resort deeded or HC if they discontinue their contract with the HOA?

 

[1Kflyerguy]

I just took a look at my Deed from Kings Land, it specifics that the deed gives me three things:

1) undivided percentage interest in the project
2) Right to use my unit on an annual basis
3) Membership in HGV Club.

It also state that these items cannot be separated from each other. I don't have my Elara deed handy, so i am not sure of the wording there. I am not a a lawyer, but that seems like my membership is not really negotiable..

Maybe there is more flexibility at other resorts, such as one where membership is optional.

 

[HuskerATL]

I just took a look at my Deed from Kings Land, it specifics that the deed gives me three things:

1) undivided percentage interest in the project
2) Right to use my unit on an annual basis
3) Membership in HGV Club.

It also state that these items cannot be separated from each other. I don't have my Elara deed handy, so i am not sure of the wording there. I am not a a lawyer, but that seems like my membership is not really negotiable..

Maybe there is more flexibility at other resorts, such as one where membership is optional.

The benefits in the Club can change though and have.

 

[Sky313]

i for one would like to see the chariman's letter for why there was a breakup between hgvc and coylumbridge. I've seen the pics for Craiggendaraoch lodges and wouldn't necessarily say they have nicer interiors than Coylumbridge (based on pictures only) so i'm not sure if it's the condition of the lodge that is the issue.

 

[Talent312]

HGVC is not about to walk away from it's developed resorts.
That would be a last, umm "resort," becuz...

(1) HGVC has reserved inventory for H-Hotels and RCI, recovered
inventory and first-refusal take backs, which provides it with...
(a) ongoing sales activity at just about every resort; and
(b) control of the HOA's who do it's bidding.
(2) The resorts HGVC built are part of it's operational heritage and identity.

If there was a serious retrenchment, I'd say foreign affiliates, the ones built by others (So. Carolina, Bay Club), and lastly the SW Florida affiliates (or the lessers of them) would be most at risk.

 

[1Kflyerguy]

The benefits in the Club can change though and have.

Yes, that's absolutely true. we have own for quite a while and I have seen things change. Fortunately so far most of the changes have not impacted my enjoyment. Though obviously others than been impacted.

 

[ski_sierra]

Coylumbridge (based on pictures only

Not many pictures on the HGVC or Hilton website. Can you share where you found the photos?

 

[HuskerATL]

Not many pictures on the HGVC or Hilton website. Can you share where you found the photos?

The perfect Highland hideaway in the Cairngorms - Coylumbridge Highland Lodges Club

Coylumbridge Highland Lodges Club is the perfect base to relax and enjoy access to some of the most breathtaking landscapes in the Scottish Highlands. Tucked into the foothills of the Cairngorm Mountains and with Loch Morlich and its beautiful sandy beach a short distance away, it’s easy to see...

www.coylumbridge.info

 

[Sky313]

The perfect Highland hideaway in the Cairngorms - Coylumbridge Highland Lodges Club

Coylumbridge Highland Lodges Club is the perfect base to relax and enjoy access to some of the most breathtaking landscapes in the Scottish Highlands. Tucked into the foothills of the Cairngorm Mountains and with Loch Morlich and its beautiful sandy beach a short distance away, it’s easy to see...

www.coylumbridge.info

Yes this is where i was able to tour the lodges. Re coylumbridge, i recall the virtual pdf brochures of the different lodges

 

[ski_sierra]

The perfect Highland hideaway in the Cairngorms - Coylumbridge Highland Lodges Club

Coylumbridge Highland Lodges Club is the perfect base to relax and enjoy access to some of the most breathtaking landscapes in the Scottish Highlands. Tucked into the foothills of the Cairngorm Mountains and with Loch Morlich and its beautiful sandy beach a short distance away, it’s easy to see...

www.coylumbridge.info

Yes this is where i was able to tour the lodges. Re coylumbridge, i recall the virtual pdf brochures of the different lodges

If the lodges look like this in reality then I am not sure what is the quality issue.

 

[CalGalTraveler]

Hard to tell from the photos. Coys ratings are lower. Remember some AirBnBs have gorgeous photos but the actual experience can be inferior with wear and tear.

I visited Craig this summer and it was on par with most HGVC resorts and in good repair. The kitchen was better stocked with utensils, plates and cutlery than some HGVC resorts. (Looking at you Lagoon Tower with only service for 6.) Nice white leather sofas and even a minibar complete with a martini shaker. The grounds and amenities were clean and in good shape.

Not luxury but clearly HCVC 4* class similar to the mainstay resorts.

 

[Sky313]

Hard to tell from the photos. Coys ratings are lower. Remember some AirBnBs have gorgeous photos but the actual experience can be inferior with wear and tear.

I visited Craig this summer and it was on par with most HGVC resorts and in good repair. The kitchen was So
stocked with utensils, plates and cutlery than some HGVC resorts. (Looking at you Lagoon Tower with only service for 6.) Nice white leather sofas and even a minibar complete with a martini shaker. The grounds and amenities were clean and in good shape.

Not luxury but clearly HCVC 4* class similar to the mainstay resorts.

I don't think you can go by tripadvisor for coylumbridge itself as it's mainly the hotel review which has poor reviews due to hotel management and other hotel issues. The lodges are harder to find on reviews but i did find this:

COYLUMBRIDGE HIGHLAND LODGES - Updated 2023 Hotel Reviews (Aviemore, Scotland)

Coylumbridge Highland Lodges, Aviemore: See 7 traveler reviews, 33 candid photos, and great deals for Coylumbridge Highland Lodges, ranked #9 of 13 hotels in Aviemore and rated 4.5 of 5 at Tripadvisor.

en.tripadvisor.com.hk

Per these pictures and review, the lodges don't seem that bad and seem comparible if not just as updated as the craiggendarach lodges.

Here is additional pictures on the coylumbridge lodge page:

The lodges - Coylumbridge Highland Lodges Club

Coylumbridge Highland Lodges are carefully positioned to take advantage of the peaceful wooded surroundings. With 61 self-catering lodges, varying in size, style and location, there’s something to suit everyone. Two and three-bedroom lodges (semi-detached and detached) are available for 7 night...

www.coylumbridge.info

Also the reviews from the HGVC page don't seem that bad either

 

[CalGalTraveler]

Hard to tell from photos. IMHO the purple plaid living room carpet and draperies in some units look frumpy to me. But the kitchens do not look too bad.

 

[Ken555]

i for one would like to see the chariman's letter for why there was a breakup between hgvc and coylumbridge. I've seen the pics for Craiggendaraoch lodges and wouldn't necessarily say they have nicer interiors than Coylumbridge (based on pictures only) so i'm not sure if it's the condition of the lodge that is the issue.

I was at both properties in May. Craig was much, much, much nicer. Perhaps we had a poor unit to judge at Coy (building 1) but I really felt like I had warped back to the 70s when I was upstairs, and in the 2000s when I was in the kitchen. It’s not that it was bad, but that it just didn’t work (for me). Craig, on the other hand, was nice all over. I remarked at the time that I had zero interest in returning to Coy but could easily see myself buying Craig.


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[bizaro86]

There is a note on the Craig owners website now:

From your Chairman

I sought specific assurance on this from Neil Hutchinson, Senior Vice President at HGV, and he replied as follows: ‘Please rest assured that HGV is fully committed to continuing our relationship with Craigendarroch Lodges. We are pleased with the continued improvement in our working relationship with your committee and owners’.

Peter Drury
Chairman[/I]

This is exactly the same message they would send if they were planning to not renew Craig when it comes up. Also, the phrase "continued improvement in our working relationship" sounds vaguely threatening to me.

If I was considering a Craig purchase (and given how many TS I currently own I'm not) I'd want to know when the HGVC management contract renews, and I'd delay purchasing until the next new one starts, as the that demonstrates that they have affirmatively renewed.

TS prices almost never go up, so there isn't a reason to rush into a Craig purchase.

 

[timsi]

Craigandaroch will probably stay in HGVC for the time being, but I doubt that HGVC will continue to allow their sales department to continue to do business as before. It makes zero sense to pay billions of dollars to acquire Diamond only to hear new owners bragging about paying next to nothing for “developer” weeks that also have rock bottom maintenance fees. I hope though that HGVC will grandfather the current owners.

 

[Sky313]

I was at both properties in May. Craig was much, much, much nicer. Perhaps we had a poor unit to judge at Coy (building 1) but I really felt like I had warped back to the 70s when I was upstairs, and in the 2000s when I was in the kitchen. It’s not that it was bad, but that it just didn’t work (for me). Craig, on the other hand, was nice all over. I remarked at the time that I had zero interest in returning to Coy but could easily see myself buying Craig.


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Out of curiosity did you stay at the craigendaroch lodge or suites

 

[Ken555]

Out of curiosity did you stay at the craigendaroch lodge or suites

Lodge


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[CalGalTraveler]

... that also have rock bottom maintenance fees. I hope though that HGVC will grandfather the current owners.

Your statement makes it sound like the MF are purposefully low. Not true. The MF are actually on par with other HGV resorts like Tuscany so slightly more expensive than Vegas when you factor in historical exchange rates..

MF are lower now due to the strong dollar but that can shift in the future as the UK works its way out of it's economic difficulties.

Anyone outside the UK who buys there needs to stomach currency fluctuations.

 

[GT75]

Perhaps we had a poor unit to judge at Coy (building 1)

Sounds like you were in one of the original lodges (1-16). To me, they have a strange layout.