Word on RCI rentals seems to be reaching more timesharers

[Walt]

I don't see anything in Madge's response that refers to these cruises being taken by Points members. RCI offers cruises to Weeks members. That is why she only mentions cruises and not any of the other things Points members can trade their points for.

In the end, Points members can back what they put in, point for point. If skimming occurs, Weeks is what makes it possible. There is nothing in the Weeks system that guarantees that RCI/II have to give back the same value that the owners put in.

(I said this before, but back in '96, my wife said that RCI had every incentive to get people to trade down so that they could use the top units for profit. That was before Points even existed. Her whole attitude toward time sharing changed when we joined Points. She now feels we are getting back the full value of our timeshare.)

Do you really believe that ALL of the Maui Embassy weeks were Cruises Weeks?

Walt

 

["Roger"]

No. I also don't believe that a single one of them came out of the Points system. (This is not a Points resort.) If skimming does occur, it is Weeks that enables it.

 

[BocaBum99]

I don't see how renting is an advantage to either the Points owners or the Weeks owners. All renting does is to put less weeks in either the Week's and/or Point's Pools.

The one thing that the Points System does is allow RCI to conceal the renting of Owner's Weeks.

Walt

There is an advantage to points that doesn't exist in weeks. You are given points for your deposit every year. You can use it for an exchange of another week. Or, you can use it for other goods and services. Many people I know take their points and convert them into Disney tickets. So, rather than have their week go usused and unexchanged, they get Disney tickets that appreciate in value.

The big problem with weeks exchanging is how many people who get nothing for their deposit.

 

[Walt]

Is it really a problem?

There is an advantage to points that doesn't exist in weeks. You are given points for your deposit every year. You can use it for an exchange of another week. Or, you can use it for other goods and services. Many people I know take their points and convert them into Disney tickets. So, rather than have their week go usused and unexchanged, they get Disney tickets that appreciate in value.

The big problem with weeks exchanging is how many people who get nothing for their deposit.

I don't have the answer. But is it really a problem? In over 20 years of Exchanging, I have always used my weeks.

Walt

 

[Carolinian]

In the end, Points members can back what they put in, point for point. If skimming occurs, Weeks is what makes it possible. There is nothing in the Weeks system that guarantees that RCI/II have to give back the same value that the owners put in.

There is no guarantee of getting the same value out of Points either, because the numbers are skewed to significantly overpoint some weeks, like resorts still in developer sales, and underpoint others, like sold our resorts in prime locations. Indeed the term ''sold our resort'' has a sinister double meaning in the corrupt world of RCI Points. Also due to the overaveraging problem which is endemic to Points, if you own in the higher range of a group of weeks that is averaged together, you are guaranteed not to get anything close to full value of what you put in back. Ditto if you happen to own week 46, because in the years it is Thanksgiving, RCI Points is not flexible enough to recognize that (Weeks is!!!) and you get hosed instead of getting the Thanksgiving bump.

 

[Carolinian]

I would call this a disadvantage as it serves to water down the core function of timeshare exchanging to offer unrelated frills. To get the inventory of those frills, they rent out timeshare inventory, often including t/s exchange deposits not directly related to those getting the frills. All of this undermines the core business.

I want an exchange company that does its core business correctly, and to heck with the extraneous frills!

There is an advantage to points that doesn't exist in weeks. You are given points for your deposit every year. You can use it for an exchange of another week. Or, you can use it for other goods and services. Many people I know take their points and convert them into Disney tickets. So, rather than have their week go usused and unexchanged, they get Disney tickets that appreciate in value.

The big problem with weeks exchanging is how many people who get nothing for their deposit.

 

[Walt]

Help Me understand Madge's Statement!

No. I also don't believe that a single one of them came out of the Points system. (This is not a Points resort.) If skimming does occur, it is Weeks that enables it.

Roger,

Is Madge saying that RCI can take a week from the Weeks Pool to rent in order to cover the cost of a Cruise of a Points Partner transaction?

As I understand Points, RCI will spacebank your week 10 months out. And your Points account will be credit with X number of points. Then 8 months out you use your points on a Cruise. But my that time your week is gone. Someone made an exchange for your week. Where does RCI get a week to Rent? Does this allow RCI to take the Maui Embassy weeks for rentals? And my question to Madge was, "Since there were many, many Hawaii Resorts and weeks for Rent, but nothing for weeks Exchanges. What is equal to Hawaii in March, April, and May? Madge would not answer this question. This is why I said, "The one thing that the Points System does is allow RCI to conceal the renting of Owner's Weeks."

Walt

______________________________________________________________

From my post to Madge:

"When members exchange their weeks for cruises or use Points Partners transactions, RCI rents space to cover the costs of those services. Since those members deposited inventory with RCI Weeks or RCI Points, but aren't taking a corresponding vacation back out, RCI has rental "credits" based on what the members deposited. These credits may or may not be redeemed in the form of the same units that were deposited.

For example, a member who took a cruise exchange may have deposited his week a year prior and it would already have been assigned to someone for exchange. In that case, we would use something comparable to his unit for the rental credit. Comparability is based on the same guidelines as Trading Power. Or, we might use something that would provide similar rental value, but would be less scarce in the exchange program. That way, the unit in higher demand for exchanges would be kept in the exchange system."

Madge

 

[JeffV]

You are certainly entitled to your opinion but that doesn't necessarily make it the choice of everyone. Many like to have options and those are greatly reduced by forcing a week for a week, especially when you have no idea of what your week will get since the Weeks system operates completely in the dark.
I also don't give much credence to your "RCI employee" quotes. If they had such hard facts, all they have to do is blow the whistle on RCI and collect big time. So far I haven't seen this happen.

I want an exchange company that does its core business correctly, and to heck with the extraneous frills!

 

[Carolinian]

You are certainly entitled to your opinion but that doesn't necessarily make it the choice of everyone. Many like to have options and those are greatly reduced by forcing a week for a week, especially when you have no idea of what your week will get since the Weeks system operates completely in the dark.
I also don't give much credence to your "RCI employee" quotes. If they had such hard facts, all they have to do is blow the whistle on RCI and collect big time. So far I haven't seen this happen.

Anon at TimeshareTalk certainly has access to RCI's computers. The site owner checked out his bonafides by asking specific questions which anon was able to anwer correctly. He had to be what he says he is to do that.

 

[BocaBum99]

I don't have the answer. But is it really a problem? In over 20 years of Exchanging, I have always used my weeks.

Walt

Walt,

Where do you think all of the extra vacations and last call weeks come from? They are primarily owner deposits that were never exchanged. For every week that ends up as an extra vacation or last call, either someone didn't get an exchange or RCI found an alternate to deposit like from a developer. With developers and RCI renting weeks now. Those most likely don't exist much anymore. So, there are lots of depositers who get nothing in return.

 

["Roger"]

....Ditto if you happen to own week 46, because in the years it is Thanksgiving, RCI Points is not flexible enough to recognize that (Weeks is!!!) and you get hosed instead of getting the Thanksgiving bump.

For the record, here is how the Weeks handles Thanksgiving. You own a week near Thanksgiving. Some years your week is worthless (November is perhaps the lowest month of the year for travel). Other years, it is worth a considerable amount of trading power (although, it is to RCI's/II's advantage at get you to trade down so they can skim). So, in the "flexible" Weeks system, it is feast or fathom.

In the Points system, you buy "Thanksgiving week." So, if you deposit your week, it is worth a great number of points, no matter what week Thanksgiving actually falls upon in a given year. (You buy a consistently steady product.) You are not left to the whims of the calandar. People trading in, likewise will pay higher values if they actually travel on Thanksgiving week; lower if they take an off week.

Carolinian prefers the feast or famine approach. I personally don't. That is nothing more than a difference of opinion. Fair enough. But, to say Points is not "flexible" because they can ADJUST so that someone has a consistent Point value is absurd. That is nothing more than saying black is white.

 

[timeos2]

Averaging isn't a bad thing

Roger - All points systems average over time periods to avoid peaks and valleys.

You have the right to and get the value for a time period such as June to August at one rate, September to November another, December another, etc. No one period is singled out to get get a bonus (such as Thanksgiving) but many owners get the average value of the time that includes Thanksgiving. If they decide to reserve that specific use time they will pay more than they got for it unless it is their home resort. Thats OK because that premium helps keep demand in line with supply. It is very simple to understand and if someone wants a higher pointed period they know going in that they have to have at least that many points to get it. They can rent, borrow or combine points to reach the number needed.

In weeks the one owner that happens to have that week gets the full benefit and those that fell just a hair short of "trade value", whatever that is, get nothing. They have no chance to adjust that value except to go back in time and deposit earlier or use a different week if they have rights to one. Saying points doesn't adjust or isn't based on demand values is simply an incorrect statement. Some may prefer the method weeks uses in secret to do the same thing but I doubt many see it as a benefit. And it certainly isn't flexible.

There are a few winners in weeks if they happen to own a valuable week. There are many winners in points because they get the choice of all use times and get to decide when and where they want to use the value they own. I can understand why a few weeks owners would prefer the old way but most owners will understand and probably do better with points. It doesn't bother me a bit that weeks is fading away as it simply isn't right for the job.

 

[Carolinian]

What I am saying is that an owner should get the correct credit for what he owns. A week 46 owner should be not cheated of the Thanksgiving bump when his week is actually Thanksgiving, and that is exactly what the inflexibility of the Points exchange mechanism does. Why should a week 47 owner get something that does not rightfully belong to them, the Thanksgiving bump, while the week 46 owner, who it really belongs to gets ripped off?

For the record, here is how the Weeks handles Thanksgiving. You own a week near Thanksgiving. Some years your week is worthless (November is perhaps the lowest month of the year for travel). Other years, it is worth a considerable amount of trading power (although, it is to RCI's/II's advantage at get you to trade down so they can skim). So, in the "flexible" Weeks system, it is feast or fathom.

In the Points system, you buy "Thanksgiving week." So, if you deposit your week, it is worth a great number of points, no matter what week Thanksgiving actually falls upon in a given year. (You buy a consistently steady product.) You are not left to the whims of the calandar. People trading in, likewise will pay higher values if they actually travel on Thanksgiving week; lower if they take an off week.

Carolinian prefers the feast or famine approach. I personally don't. That is nothing more than a difference of opinion. Fair enough. But, to say Points is not "flexible" because they can ADJUST so that someone has a consistent Point value is absurd. That is nothing more than saying black is white.

 

[Carolinian]

You had better go back and check your points book! Week 47 is given higher point totals in RCI Points many places, including the OBX. For the OBX, it is on the same grid as the second tier of red weeks, although it is ''blue'' on the ancient color code charts.

Where averaging really overpoints some and underpoints others is in the spring and fall, where the desirability of weeks gradually declines or rises. Saying week 33 in mid-August and week 43 in late October have the same value on the OBX, for example is just nuts. The 33 has significantly higher demand over supply, rents for significantly more, and sells for significantly more.

But if you really want to see overaveraging gone nuts, see the Points generic crossover girds. They say a New Years week in the Caribbean is worth the same as a hurricane season week in the Caribbean. RCI must have had a heavy dose of ganga when they came up with that one!

Roger - All points systems average over time periods to avoid peaks and valleys.

You have the right to and get the value for a time period such as June to August at one rate, September to November another, December another, etc. No one period is singled out to get get a bonus (such as Thanksgiving) but many owners get the average value of the time that includes Thanksgiving. If they decide to reserve that specific use time they will pay more than they got for it unless it is their home resort. Thats OK because that premium helps keep demand in line with supply. It is very simple to understand and if someone wants a higher pointed period they know going in that they have to have at least that many points to get it. They can rent, borrow or combine points to reach the number needed.

In weeks the one owner that happens to have that week gets the full benefit and those that fell just a hair short of "trade value", whatever that is, get nothing. They have no chance to adjust that value except to go back in time and deposit earlier or use a different week if they have rights to one. Saying points doesn't adjust or isn't based on demand values is simply an incorrect statement. Some may prefer the method weeks uses in secret to do the same thing but I doubt many see it as a benefit. And it certainly isn't flexible.

There are a few winners in weeks if they happen to own a valuable week. There are many winners in points because they get the choice of all use times and get to decide when and where they want to use the value they own. I can understand why a few weeks owners would prefer the old way but most owners will understand and probably do better with points. It doesn't bother me a bit that weeks is fading away as it simply isn't right for the job.

 

[timeos2]

Most points resorts aren't fixed weeks so no one "owns" a use time

What I am saying is that an owner should get the correct credit for what he owns. A week 46 owner should be not cheated of the Thanksgiving bump when his week is actually Thanksgiving, and that is exactly what the inflexibility of the Points exchange mechanism does. Why should a week 47 owner get something that does not rightfully belong to them, the Thanksgiving bump, while the week 46 owner, who it really belongs to gets ripped off?

You make it sound so sinister. If that owner wants to use the week he deposited with points at his home resort he CAN get it without the premium. But he won't get the "extra" points in his account in most cases since when he shops his points is isn't locked into that single use period or that resort. Points avergae values to smooth over the assignment and use of points. It is up to the owner of those points - not some unknown enitity in a secret room - to decide how to use them to maximize the value to that owner.

By now we know we'll never see eye to eye on this. Unfortunately when I see points based system being tarred with unfair "problems" they don't have I feel the need to respond.

 

[Carolinian]

He is still being denied his proper trade value in this collectivist policy of points. An owner of week 46 should in any fair and honest system get his full trade value when Thanksgiving falls during his week. Points is simply not a fair and honest system.

From what I see in eastern North Carolina, the few Points resorts here are predominantly fixed week resorts not floating weeks. I don't know if anyone has run the numbers for the whole system.

You make it sound so sinister. If that owner wants to use the week he deposited with points at his home resort he CAN get it without the premium. But he won't get the "extra" points in his account in most cases since when he shops his points is isn't locked into that single use period or that resort. Points avergae values to smooth over the assignment and use of points. It is up to the owner of those points - not some unknown enitity in a secret room - to decide how to use them to maximize the value to that owner.

By now we know we'll never see eye to eye on this. Unfortunately when I see points based system being tarred with unfair "problems" they don't have I feel the need to respond.

 

[CMF]

Cendant PR News Release

Cendant Reports

" Hospitality Services (Consisting of the Company's franchised lodging brands, hotel management, timeshare exchange and vacation rental businesses)

2005 2004 % change
Revenue $ 361 $ 324 11%
EBITDA $ 80 $ 83 (4%)

Revenue increased primarily due to growth in our lodging and RCI timeshare exchange businesses. The largest contributor to revenue growth was the inclusion of approximately $30 million of revenue associated with the acquisition of Wyndham International, of which approximately $25 million had no impact on EBITDA because it related to reimbursable expenses. Lodging revenue was also positively impacted by an 11% improvement in RevPAR, excluding Wyndham and Ramada International. Revenue from RCI increased 8% primarily as a result of increased rental activity and RCI points transaction volume. Partially offsetting these revenue increases was a decline at our European Vacation Rental business, which experienced slow booking patterns in the soft European travel marketplace. EBITDA was negatively impacted primarily by a previously announced $16 million charge incurred to combine the operations of RCI and the Vacation Rental Group to form the Vacation Network Group."


Just in case this might be of interest to anyone.

Charles

 

["Roger"]

What I am saying is that an owner should get the correct credit for what he owns. A week 46 owner should be not cheated of the Thanksgiving bump when his week is actually Thanksgiving, and that is exactly what the inflexibility of the Points exchange mechanism does. Why should a week 47 owner get something that does not rightfully belong to them, the Thanksgiving bump, while the week 46 owner, who it really belongs to gets ripped off?

There is absolutely nothing about points per se that would NOT allow it to be set up according to your preference (and that is all that it is). They could have let the number of points for weeks 46 and 47 go up and down depending upon where Thanksgiving fell a particular year. In fact, they do do that when you trade into a resort. (So, don't tell me that the published guide makes that impossible. Balony!)

Then, why didn't they set it up so that someone who owns one or the other of those two weeks have their allotted number of points go wildly up and down depending on the calandar year. They made a marketing decision that your preference would be less popular than just assigning one of the two weeks as Thanksgiving and letting its point value remain stable. People either buy a week that has high value every year or one that does not. If they don't want the low value week, then they don't have to buy it.

So, within Points, RCI had several options on how to set up point values for Thanksgiving. They chose one of them. That does not indicate that points systems are "inflexible." The fact that RCI had options to chose from would, if anything, indicate "flexibility" not inflexibility.

(For the record, when Points owners talk about "flexibity" they are referring to the options that they, as owners, have. Thus, RCI having choices is not what they mean by the points system being more flexible. Likewise, the fact that the trading power of weeks 46 and 46 swing wildly within the Weeks system would not be what they mean by flexibility.)

Finally, your original claim was also that allowing people to buy Thanksgiving week (regardless or where it occurred) created excess inventory within Points. ?????

 

["Roger"]

Thanks, Charles.

Also of interest is the next section immediately after your quote. Cendant's
"Timeshare" business (this is Worldmark and Fairfield) easily had more revenue and higher profits than the "Hospitality" section (which includes RCI, their hotel holdings, their rental units which include several European rental companies that rent caravan spaces, country cottages, and camp sites). That tells you where the big bucks in timesharing really lie -- the developers are the one's making the real money.

 

[JLB]

I have not read anything except the OP.

Since it mentions Association board members, my comment is that not all Associations care about this issue. I'm not sure how many would and how many wouldn't.

In my case for our home resort, they don't care what the exchange companies do. They are glad to have them as it enhances the resort. In fact, they were rather perturbed with me for bringing it up.

Sorta like here sometimes.

 

[reddiablosv]

Generally, you will find garbage weeks of timeshares are rented below maintenance and high demand weeks are rented out at higher than maintenance fees.

The issue should really be: is RCI renting out high demand weeks below maintainance fees?

I rented the last two weeks of summer at EVR PP Point for $629/wk from Snaptravel with my Amex discount. Is this below MF? Are these high demand weeks? Ben