Wild fires and insurance

[Carolinian]

In eastern North Carolina, insurers give a discount to those with roofs less vulnerable to wind. The biggest discount is for a so-called fortified roof.

It would seem to me that California insurers should give discounts to people with roofs and walls less like to carch fire, such as metals roofs and non-flamable wall materials. Also for keep vegetation away from the house.

 

[Ken555]

In eastern North Carolina, insurers give a discount to those with roofs less vulnerable to wind. The biggest discount is for a so-called fortified roof.

It would seem to me that California insurers should give discounts to people with roofs and walls less like to carch fire, such as metals roofs and non-flamable wall materials. Also for keep vegetation away from the house.

Building codes here changed long, long ago to require more heat-resistant roofs. For instance, wood shingles have not been allowed for decades. Certainly this can be improved based on current tech, and I am certain it will be.

 

[oceanblue2]

We live in a 1950s ranch house in California. When we needed a new roof nine years ago we got estimates on metal roofs. We were quoted $135,000.00 for a metal roof. Needless to say we went with a different type of fire rated roof, if there even is such a thing. I dread to think how much metal roofs cost today. We have owned this house for almost fifty years. It is not in a wildfire area and the area has not had a wildfire in the time that we have lived here. Obviously that doesn't mean that it can't happen just that we don't have a history of wildfires.

When our homeowners policy was coming up for renewal we received a phone call, followed by a letter informing us that our policy would not be renewed. Pretty much all of our insurance has been with this company (AAA) for the last fifty years. So much for loyalty. My husband spent MANY hours on the phone trying to find coverage. Despite being promised call backs with policy information the majority of companies did not call him back. We were forced to go to the California Fair plan plus a wrap around policy that covered the points of a homeowners policy that the Fair plan doesn't cover. The non renewed policy had cost $3400 the previous year, the Fair policy with wrap around is now more than $9,000. This of course doesn't include earthquake and flood insurance. The deductible on the earthquake policy makes it questionable as to whether it is even worth having in the first place unless the insured is extremely wealthy.

The sad reality is that many people will lose their homes, not from fires or earthquakes but because they are unable to afford the insurance that their mortgage holder requires. The LA fires will have far reaching consequences.

So many people who had homes a week ago are now homeless. Where will they live, so much of the housing market no longer exists, many will no longer have jobs as their workplaces went up in smoke.

This is all so huge that it is difficult to comprehend.

 

[T_R_Oglodyte]

Building codes here changed long, long ago to require more heat-resistant roofs. For instance, wood shingles have not been allowed for decades. Certainly this can be improved based on current tech, and I am certain it will be.

After major urban fires in the 1800's many cities banned new wood frame construction in the core commercial areas. IMHO - we should require this across the board in more urban areas. Might be boom times ahead for masons.

 

[Janann]

We were quoted $135,000.00 for a metal roof.

I have a metal roof in Texas for hail protection, and we didn't pay anything near that amount. However, it has probably been about 20 years since it was added to the house.

 

[emeryjre]

There will be a hunt to find a "deep pocket" cause of the fire
Ultimately it will be the consumer/taxpayer who will be helping pay for the losses
My heart goes out for all the people losing their homes
I am praying that North County San Diego does not become the next area in the new round of high winds coming later this week
The danger is not over yet

 

[oceanblue2]

I have a metal roof in Texas for hail protection, and we didn't pay anything near that amount. However, it has probably been about 20 years since it was added to the house.

We live in .com country and everything cost an arm and a leg! It is totally ridiculous.

 

[Carolinian]

We live in a 1950s ranch house in California. When we needed a new roof nine years ago we got estimates on metal roofs. We were quoted $135,000.00 for a metal roof. Needless to say we went with a different type of fire rated roof, if there even is such a thing. I dread to think how much metal roofs cost today. We have owned this house for almost fifty years. It is not in a wildfire area and the area has not had a wildfire in the time that we have lived here. Obviously that doesn't mean that it can't happen just that we don't have a history of wildfires.

When our homeowners policy was coming up for renewal we received a phone call, followed by a letter informing us that our policy would not be renewed. Pretty much all of our insurance has been with this company (AAA) for the last fifty years. So much for loyalty. My husband spent MANY hours on the phone trying to find coverage. Despite being promised call backs with policy information the majority of companies did not call him back. We were forced to go to the California Fair plan plus a wrap around policy that covered the points of a homeowners policy that the Fair plan doesn't cover. The non renewed policy had cost $3400 the previous year, the Fair policy with wrap around is now more than $9,000. This of course doesn't include earthquake and flood insurance. The deductible on the earthquake policy makes it questionable as to whether it is even worth having in the first place unless the insured is extremely wealthy.

The sad reality is that many people will lose their homes, not from fires or earthquakes but because they are unable to afford the insurance that their mortgage holder requires. The LA fires will have far reaching consequences.

So many people who had homes a week ago are now homeless. Where will they live, so much of the housing market no longer exists, many will no longer have jobs as their workplaces went up in smoke.

This is all so huge that it is difficult to comprehend.

I think you are right on far reaching consequences. Banks and other financial institutions that are already shaky will be sitting on loans without adequate collateral. Local financial institutions will probably be hit hardest but national financial institutions with an exposure to California lending will also be hit. I suspect there are already market analysts figuring out which stocks are likely to take hits.

Then there are the re-insurance companies, which will be taking heavy hits. Insurance companies everywhere buy re-insurance, and when those rates go up, so will the insurance rates for the front line insurance companies. We will all share in the financial cost of this disaster.

As to metal roofs, we put a standing seam metal roof, the most expensive kiind and the one most resistant to wind, on an 1890 house we bought in our historic district a couple of years ago. We paid a little over $20,000. Installation of a standing seam roof is more labor intensive than other types of metal roofs, and I am sure labor in eastern NC is much cheaper than in California. We have more recently put standing seam metal roofs on some outbuilding in the back yard of our own house, also in the historic district, and have a qualified and competent installer who charged us $14 an hour for his labor. There is a company out of Tennessee that has a local distributor that we buy the roofing materials from.

 

[Carolinian]

There will be a hunt to find a "deep pocket" cause of the fire
Ultimately it will be the consumer/taxpayer who will be helping pay for the losses
My heart goes out for all the people losing their homes
I am praying that North County San Diego does not become the next area in the new round of high winds coming later this week
The danger is not over yet

There is already talk of suing the big electric company out there on the as yet unsubstantiated theory that a downed power line caused at least one of the fires. This could bankrupt them. There has also been allegations of arson, but no deep pocket there. The only arsonist arrested was unsuccessful in getting a fire started and he was arrested on a probation violation and not yet charged with arson. He was using a blow torch to light up discarded CHristmas trees and local citizens stopped him and called police.

This is all such a tragedy.

 

[emeryjre]

Well aware of the process of hunting for a "deep pocket" cause of the fires
As is everyone else in California paying a utility bill

 

[Carolinian]

Well aware of the process of hunting for a "deep pocket" cause of the fires
As is everyone else in California paying a utility bill

It looks like lawsuits are already being filed, even though there seems to be no solid evidence yet.

Southern California Edison sued for 'sparking deadly LA fire'

The lawsuits claim SoCal Edison's electrical equipment started one of the major wildfires raging in the Los Angeles area, according to court filings.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[T_R_Oglodyte]

We live in a 1950s ranch house in California. When we needed a new roof nine years ago we got estimates on metal roofs. We were quoted $135,000.00 for a metal roof.

That seems crazy, even for CA. Metal roofs are very common in places like Crestline, Arrowhead, and Big Bear, and I would be amazed if people spend $100k on metal roofs there.

 

[oceanblue2]

That seems crazy, even for CA. Metal roofs are very common in places like Crestline, Arrowhead, and Big Bear, and I would be amazed if people spend $100k on metal roofs there.

I agree that it is crazy. Unfortunately things are much more expensive in the Bay Area than down south. I know that from experience as we used to live in Orange County. A new roof there cost us $13,000 on a two story house so the roof had less square footage but the difference is still extreme. Needless to say we don't have a metal roof and there aren't many of them in our area probably due to the high cost.

 

[isisdave]

While some want to sue power companies for their equipment possibly starting fires, others want to sue them when they have power cuts ("PSPS") to prevent that, which came about after SDG&E was sued for NOT cutting power before a wind event.

Where I used to live, people complain "Why cut MY power, our lines are underground?" as if it comes down from the sky via lightning bolt. This is a good incentive for solar power, or at least natural-gas fueled emergency generators.

You really can't win this game. There needs to be clear public policy and a restoration fund. I often think that we (former) Californians want everything, we just don't want to pay for it.

 

[T_R_Oglodyte]

While some want to sue power companies for their equipment possibly starting fires, others want to sue them when they have power cuts ("PSPS") to prevent that, which came about after SDG&E was sued for NOT cutting power before a wind event.

Where I used to live, people complain "Why cut MY power, our lines are underground?" as if it comes down from the sky via lightning bolt. This is a good incentive for solar power, or at least natural-gas fueled emergency generators.

You really can't win this game. There needs to be clear public policy and a restoration fund. I often think that we (former) Californians want everything, we just don't want to pay for it.

Where I formerly lived, in Belly-View, WA, our subdivision had underground power. We were supplied through an adjacent subdivision with standard electric poles. So when that subdivision lost power, we lost our power as well.

 

[VacationForever]

While some want to sue power companies for their equipment possibly starting fires, others want to sue them when they have power cuts ("PSPS") to prevent that, which came about after SDG&E was sued for NOT cutting power before a wind event.

Where I used to live, people complain "Why cut MY power, our lines are underground?" as if it comes down from the sky via lightning bolt. This is a good incentive for solar power, or at least natural-gas fueled emergency generators.

You really can't win this game. There needs to be clear public policy and a restoration fund. I often think that we (former) Californians want everything, we just don't want to pay for it.

Actually there are countries that are more advanced than the US that have power lines run underground.

 

[Ken555]

I feel every homeowner insurer carrier will increase premiums in 2025/2026 to cover the 8 billions dollars or more loss in the California wild fire and just think hurricane season for 2025 have not hit the United States. IMHO

Today's press conference stated a preliminary estimate of $240-275 billion.

New Report Finds Total Damage, Economic Losses From The L.A. Wildfires approximately $275 Billion – California Globe

californiaglobe.com

 

[Carolinian]

Some of the history of property insurance claims denials in California are not good, some companies around 50%

The California insurance company that denied the most fire claims

Residents are scrambling to recoup costs after at least 12,300 structures were razed to the ground by the infernos, including thousands of homes and businesses.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[mountainboy]

Today's press conference stated a preliminary estimate of $240-275 billion.

New Report Finds Total Damage, Economic Losses From The L.A. Wildfires approximately $275 Billion – California Globe

californiaglobe.com

Some of the history of property insurance claims denials in California are not good, some companies around 50%

The California insurance company that denied the most fire claims

Residents are scrambling to recoup costs after at least 12,300 structures were razed to the ground by the infernos, including thousands of homes and businesses.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Related article from WSJ on insurance, rebuilding & home owners likely getting hosed with significant share of rebuilding costs

https://www.wsj.com/finance/insurers-rule-change-puts-california-homeowners-on-the-hook-for-l-a-fire-88336040?st=WfsNiM&reflink=desktopwebshare_permalink

 

[T_R_Oglodyte]

The Private Firefighters On Call for the Californians Who Can Afford Them

Andrew Sarvis of West Coast Water Tenders on the LA fires and the demand for private firefighers in Malibu and the Palisades.

www.rollingstone.com

 

[am1]

In eastern North Carolina, insurers give a discount to those with roofs less vulnerable to wind. The biggest discount is for a so-called fortified roof.

It would seem to me that California insurers should give discounts to people with roofs and walls less like to carch fire, such as metals roofs and non-flamable wall materials. Also for keep vegetation away from the house.

My beach house has some areas with flat poured concrete roofs. A nightmare as they leak but easy to walk on. My neighbour in town did a sloped concrete roof but with metal mesh and styrofoam in the middle. No need for a drop ceiling, higher ceilings and not likely to be broken in through the roof.

None of these houses have insurance but I am sure less resistance to fire.

Because of rust here plastic roof sheeting is becoming popular.

 

[WaikikiFirst]

I have a relative in San Diego who was notified of insurance non-renewal because the insurance company claimed lack of defensible space. Apparently they had either drone or satellite images of the property. My relative was able to cut down the trees and bushes before the cancellation deadline and their broker was able to appeal and was reinstated.

anyone remember what I wrote about "defensible space" and the Fire Prevention Districts in these threads? Well, in late June, LA County’s “Blue Ribbon Commission on Climate Action and Fire-Safe Recovery” issued its “draft action plan” for “The Resilient and Sustainable Rebuilding of Los Angeles County.” It is a WHOLE LOTTA Bureaucracy, BUT BUT BUT, I applaud them for most of it. Multiple things in it directly fix wacky issues and loopholes that existed, and that I wrote about.
There is one thing in there that should prevent a problem that one of my neighbors has with their solar-power dream-home. This is for the rebuilt homes, and I'm sure most of the stuff will soon find its way into all newly-built homes.

Some of it is boot-on-neck overkill, but all-in-all, most of it is needed given the realities of CA and the ability of people to do dumb things that put the cost on other people / society, an "externality" in econ.

 

[WaikikiFirst]

Related to this, just a few days ago, a different neighbor who moved in about 1 yr ago told me that when the property changed hands, they were forced to pay for a monitor that sits at the main water line and has an internet connection. I never asked if it was WiFi or cellular. The thing connects to some algorithms & data base. It knows usage patterns, etc. The point is that a large % of all homeowners insurance claims are due to flooding, so this thing looks for flows that may be due to a leak, for whatever reason the leak occurred. They have an app on cellphones that can turn the main water line off, in case the "leak" occurs while nobody is home.

When they take a shower late at might, they get a text warning them of the water flow, because that is considered unusual. I think he called it a "Moen", which is a company. There are 2 different companies I think of when thinking of "smart" water-meters, etc. Since it is not actually a meter, maybe Moen makes it?

I've been known to shut things off when we go on a week vacation and my wife looks at me like I'm crazy. Yeah, crazy like a fox. People are SO lazy

 

[Ken555]

anyone remember what I wrote about "defensible space" and the Fire Prevention Districts in these threads? Well, in late June, LA County’s “Blue Ribbon Commission on Climate Action and Fire-Safe Recovery” issued its “draft action plan” for “The Resilient and Sustainable Rebuilding of Los Angeles County.” It is a WHOLE LOTTA Bureaucracy, BUT BUT BUT, I applaud them for most of it. Multiple things in it directly fix wacky issues and loopholes that existed, and that I wrote about.
There is one thing in there that should prevent a problem that one of my neighbors has with their solar-power dream-home. This is for the rebuilt homes, and I'm sure most of the stuff will soon find its way into all newly-built homes.

Some of it is throat-on-neck overkill, but all-in-all, most of it is needed given the realities of CA and the ability of people to do dumb things that put the cost on other people / society, an "externality" in econ.

I assume you're also referring to the new Zone Zero Regulatory Advisory Committee meeting tomorrow and their discussion of enforcing new Zone 0 rules statewide by December 31st. Community groups and residents oppose these rules until studies are complete, perform new studies how well-maintained, irrigated hedges have protected homes during wildfires, listen to on-the-ground experiences, not just laboratory-based models, to create fire-resilient and livable communities, and engage directly with local HOAs and other organizations before finalizing these rules.

 

[WaikikiFirst]

Zone Zero Regulatory Advisory Committee meeting tomorrow and their discussion of enforcing new Zone 0 rules statewide by December 31st

Yes, that is a small part of it. Idk the specific details of those "Zone 0" rules, which I am sure have changed since the LA fires, nor of that meeting.
But most of that Zone 0 stuff was supposed to have been implemented statewide ... way back "when?" ... who can keep up ... it is CA ... years pass ... studies go on and on.
I'm not sure I ever read ANYTHING that sounds more like overly-massaged mantra from a mass-mailing
"Community groups and residents oppose these rules until studies are complete, perform new studies how well-maintained, irrigated hedges have protected homes during wildfires, listen to on-the-ground experiences, not just laboratory-based models, to create fire-resilient and livable communities, and engage directly with local HOAs and other organizations before finalizing these rules."

I think I got my exercise for the day just reading it. 1 sentence, 50 words, to put lipstick on delay tactics. Good luck to the HOAs when they can't get insurance.