Why Michael Flaskey’s New Role at Marriott Vacation Club Should Terrify Timeshare Owners

[JIMinNC]

Be careful about generalizing about “the rich”. How do you define what is “rich”? Certainly for the truly ultra rich (the private jet class), saving a few bucks here or there wouldn’t be something they would worry much about. But there aren’t all that many of those people in the scheme of things. They are truly the 1% or 0.5%.

There is also a large group of people that the average person sees as part of “the rich”, but who still care about finding value where they can. They always fly business class or first class, only stay in 4/5 star hotels, drive BMW/Mercedes/Porsche/etc, and own vacation homes. They can afford a lot, but if they can get what they want at a better price, they will seek it out. They just don’t compromise on quality, service, etc just to save money. We have friends who fall in that category - heck, maybe some of our other friends would think we do too - but this group doesn’t have unlimited funds and they still value a good deal. Most average people would consider them “rich” when they compare that lifestyle to their own, but they don’t fly around in private jets.

 

[jp10558]

Be careful about generalizing about “the rich”. How do you define what is “rich”? Certainly for the truly ultra rich (the private jet class), saving a few bucks here or there wouldn’t be something they would worry much about. But there aren’t all that many of those people in the scheme of things. They are truly the 1% or 0.5%.

100% - I was poorly trying to make or allude to this point in some of my posts - how high end is MVC and Vegas actually targeting? The Youtube videos explaining "Vegas" reorientation sure made me think of the private jet class, or at least pretty close - they tout high roller tables, $50k+ F1 experiences, and $20k+ betting / losses in a night. IDK if having what I'd estimate at $100k to blow in a weekend puts you in the 1% or 0.5% or what, but it seems a different level than the business class flyer with a BMW and a vacation home to me.

There is also a large group of people that the average person sees as part of “the rich”, but who still care about finding value where they can. They always fly business class or first class, only stay in 4/5 star hotels, drive BMW/Mercedes/Porsche/etc, and own vacation homes. They can afford a lot, but if they can get what they want at a better price, they will seek it out. They just don’t compromise on quality, service, etc just to save money. We have friends who fall in that category - heck, maybe some of our other friends would think we do too - but this group doesn’t have unlimited funds and they still value a good deal. Most average people would consider them “rich” when they compare that lifestyle to their own, but they don’t fly around in private jets.

I'm still skeptical about how much and at what scale someone like that "values a good deal". What I mean is simply there are things I notice most people won't do to save a small enough percentage of their income. Like me not using a gas buddy app or signing up for a gas station debit card to save a couple bucks on each fill up (at best).

Except has a niche hobby, the timeshare hoops to get value push a lot of people away. The savings can overcome that (at least buying resale, or be made to seem to overcome that retail) - however most of the sales pitch is "see places you can go!" with an undercurrent of "places you couldn't afford to go normally" but that's a harder pitch to 4* hotel people who've been paying cash. At least IMHO. If I was already affording resort hotel suites I'm not sure I'd have ever bothered to look at timeshares once they mentioned at least the limitation of locations. Especially if I was touring say Wyndham Nashville or Smugglers Notch or Palm-Aire say, which are decidedly 3* properties.

 

[WBP]

At some point, if you're willing to lower yourself to collecting Marriott's equivalent of food stamps by turning sales-presentation attendance into a lifestyle, you might as well consider other ways of earning money.

I've noticed a pattern among certain TUG members. Some have amassed thousands of posts, and if you observe the frequency and spontaneity of their posts on TUG, it raises questions about whether their behavior reflects an obsessive behavior. They seem to devote an extraordinary amount of time and energy to posts on TUG.

I suppose the one advantage of attending Marriott sales presentations instead of prostitution is that you're less likely to contract a sexually transmitted disease—although, given the nature of some sales pitches, perhaps that's still open to debate.

 

[dioxide45]

The Youtube videos explaining "Vegas" reorientation sure made me think of the private jet class, or at least pretty close - they tout high roller tables, $50k+ F1 experiences, and $20k+ betting / losses in a night.

The video I was watching was actually showing Dana White when referring to the high stakes betting class. Even though he is actually banned from several Vegas casinos. I would put Dana White in the private jet class.

 

[dioxide45]

At some point, if you're willing to lower yourself to collecting Marriott's equivalent of food stamps by turning sales-presentation attendance into a lifestyle, you might as well consider other ways of earning money.

I've noticed a pattern among certain TUG members. Some have amassed thousands of posts, and if you observe the frequency and spontaneity of their posts on TUG, it raises questions about whether their behavior reflects an obsessive behavior. They seem to devote an extraordinary amount of time and energy to posts on TUG.

I suppose the one advantage of attending Marriott sales presentations instead of prostitution is that you're less likely to contract a sexually transmitted disease—although, given the nature of some sales pitches, perhaps that's still open to debate.

Judging other people much?

 

[Dean]

At some point, if you're willing to lower yourself to collecting Marriott's equivalent of food stamps by turning sales-presentation attendance into a lifestyle, you might as well consider other ways of earning money.

I've noticed a pattern among certain TUG members. Some have amassed thousands of posts, and if you observe the frequency and spontaneity of their posts on TUG, it raises questions about whether their behavior reflects an obsessive behavior. They seem to devote an extraordinary amount of time and energy to posts on TUG.

I suppose the one advantage of attending Marriott sales presentations instead of prostitution is that you're less likely to contract a sexually transmitted disease—although, given the nature of some sales pitches, perhaps that's still open to debate.

Of course all the regulars here are obsessed in some way whether it be with the system, management, usage, rules or conspiracy theories (likely some combination for most of us).

Regardless, there becomes a level of wealth, income and expectations where timeshare don't make sense. Whatever cutoff you use, timeshares are essentially a middle class/upper middle class product. There will be outliers whether it be someone living beyond their means or someone trying to squeak out value when they don't have the need. The 1% is a safe level to draw the line though in reality the cutoff line is likely a bit lower than that. The reality is timeshares come with commitments, risk, aggravations and compromises and they don't make sense for everyone and likely don't make sense for most people. I wonder what % of the population that they do make sense for shy's away either because of fear, reputation or lack of knowledge.

 

[Hindsite]

Of course all the regulars here are obsessed in some way whether it be with the system, management, usage, rules or conspiracy theories (likely some combination for most of us).

Count me in

I suspect @TUGBrian and colleagues do a great service to many health providers in ensuring there is an effective outlet for obsessive behaviours that might otherwise generate a net drain on society.

I'm happy that my neurodivergence has the ability to enable some others to derive additional benefit from their vacations

 

[JIMinNC]

For us, timeshares started as a way to get bigger, higher-quality lodging units at a better value when we were traveling with our children when they were growing up.

Now, as empty nesters with successful adult children, there is a different value. When we travel to Europe and places without timeshares we can afford 4/5 star hotels, but we still find value in our Marriott and Hilton timeshares because they still offer the space we have come to expect, offer more certainty of meeting our quality expectations than the unpredictable world of AirBnB and VRBO, and can host trips with our kids and their significant others.

We have learned to plan ahead, so it doesn’t seem like we have to jump through hoops to use our ownership. Interestingly, we now have to plan our Azamara cruises even father out than we do our timeshares. We just booked a cruise for August 2028. There are only four of our desired suites on each Azamara ship, and they often book up quickly. Timeshare ownership was good training!

 

[jp10558]

Of course all the regulars here are obsessed in some way whether it be with the system, management, usage, rules or conspiracy theories (likely some combination for most of us).

Also, have you been to other online forums? Some of them are really challenging to be on or have very little traffic so if you like chatting with people about something like Timeshares, TUG is a lot better / more active than say reddit, and way better real info than much of Facebook (so I've heard anyway, I'm not on facebook). People I'm regularly around IRL have different hobbies (some that I align with and some I don't) and so they're not necessarily into the optimization of things like travel cost or even just general planning out trips or the like. I used to be like that pre TUG and timeshares, and I've said it before but I really didn't travel much before. Being on TUG inspires me, and helps me make it cost effective.

Having a hobby isn't a bad thing IMHO. Some of us have more than one.

Regardless, there becomes a level of wealth, income and expectations where timeshare don't make sense. Whatever cutoff you use, timeshares are essentially a middle class/upper middle class product. There will be outliers whether it be someone living beyond their means or someone trying to squeak out value when they don't have the need. The 1% is a safe level to draw the line though in reality the cutoff line is likely a bit lower than that.

100% - this is why I question the "go for a wealthier market" in relation to timeshares. Yea, you can probably go from targeting middle class to trying for upper middle class, but if you're now moving upmarket from upper middle class ... I want to see any indication that market exists for timeshares cause I really question that it does.

The reality is timeshares come with commitments, risk, aggravations and compromises and they don't make sense for everyone and likely don't make sense for most people. I wonder what % of the population that they do make sense for shy's away either because of fear, reputation or lack of knowledge.

I think in a lot of ways the attempts to replace fixed week fixed unit and traditional RCI/II exchanges actually narrow the people it makes sense for. I get that it sells better but I do question how many people both don't want a week and can plan 9+ months out to get a specific weekend, and want the hassle for less days to spread the costs over and hence build potential savings. Too many people struggle with points systems, and get flimflammed. At least with tradational fixed week fixed unit, they knew what they were buying and they always got it.

And as you got more experienced with weeks you could learn exchanges to expand your dates and locations etc. I'm not too sure how much this holds true for other people, but with many things in my life, the "sales pitch" for a newbie sells you on stuff that as you learn more the less it's valuable. This held true for things as diverse as "simple software installers" at work through "more autofocus points or automatic modes" for cameras to "blender programs" on high end blenders. The "simplicity and features" of points programs often gets in the way of actually getting a booking or makes things cost more IME. When I need a weekend or a day here or there, a lot of the timeshare value doesn't exist for me booking it. With HGVC I have to amortize the $80 booking fee over less days, with RCI Points it's even higher. Wyndham doesn't have this issue (nice) but the days or minimum stay usually aren't available in the shorter timeframe that most short trips come up for me or friends or family. Also, if I'm somewhere for 2 days, I don't need laundry, I probably don't need to shop and cook, I won't likely have time to lounge in a sauna or play mini golf - i.e. short trips are for other purposes IMO.

I think at least some people for whom timeshares would have made sense either could not have afforded retail buy ins, or didn't even know they exist. My sister has said more than once that these resorts seem like a bit of a hidden secret world that many don't know about. I guess that's potentially changing with them up on the hotel brands booking sites, but that's also newish. And "back in the day" when I first heard of timeshares around 2000 - I didn't know about TUG, and not sure I could have found it online at the time. So all we had were whispers of how "scammy" they were. I can see people being scared away, especially when the mainstream like reddit or news articles only talk about the negatives.

 

[Tahiya]

Timeshares are all about saving money for us. We fly business class (often using FF miles) and own a BMW, but have no second home. We charge most expenses to credit cards, but carry no debt. My relatives and friends who have less funds than we do are happy to stay in our timeshares with or without us. Relatives and friends who have more wealth/income than us are more reluctant to stay in our 3 and 4 star, location and advance-planning constrained timeshares. They value freedom and less hassle, and often stay in greater luxury than we can offer. I agree that timeshares are for the middle class, though I might have said Costco rather than Wal-Mart shoppers.

 

[JIMinNC]

I just did a little research, and the true "private jet class" may be closer to the top 0.5% or even the top 0.1% rather than the top 1%.

The top 1% in income is estimated to be in the $800k to $1 million range. The top 1% in wealth is estimated to be in the $13 to $15 million of assets range. I would think very few people in those ranges regularly travel by private jet, unless it is a jet owned by the company they work for.

Based on some opinions I saw online, it would take a net worth above $50 million (maybe well above) to find people who regularly travel in private jets for non-business travel.

 

[Dean]

I just did a little research, and the true "private jet class" may be closer to the top 0.5% or even the top 0.1% rather than the top 1%.

The top 1% in income is estimated to be in the $800k to $1 million range. The top 1% in wealth is estimated to be in the $13 to $15 million of assets range. I would think very few people in those ranges regularly travel by private jet, unless it is a jet owned by the company they work for.

Based on some opinions I saw online, it would take a net worth above $50 million (maybe well above) to find people who regularly travel in private jets for non-business travel.

I would think the bar for those who just pay cash and/or not fool with timeshares would be quite a bit lower than the private jet crowd and likely lower than the 1% level.

 

[jp10558]

I would think the bar for those who just pay cash and/or not fool with timeshares would be quite a bit lower than the private jet crowd and likely lower than the 1% level.

People paying cash and not fooling with timeshares are all over the income map. We talk about that all the time - the vast majority for whom timeshares don't make sense. Timeshares already don't make financial sense with retail buy in prices. I imagine it's been a while since they did, if they ever did.

The sales process still lives on "savings". Cheap trips for going to a presentation, or free tickets or $150 gift cards. All things that have less appeal to upper middle class people and up. If you're OK paying a couple grand for accommodations without much thought, then getting 3 or 4 nights for $299 probably doesn't impress you once you see the presentation requirement, especially with the lack of knowledge of the hotel or room or whatever you're actually staying in.

What is the pitch to even get these higher end customers in the presentations? That's the problem.