What determines a "tiger trader?"

[DaveNV]

I've seen this term used several times recently here on TUG. I presume it means a TS that trades well, or at least, better than average. But how is that measured? What is considered "average?" Is there a way to compare one resort's trading power side by side with another, so as to determine the relative "tiger" status? How can I tell if my resorts are tigers or not? Is there a list someplace? And are there various shades of, er... "tiger-ness?"

Anyone have ideas?

Dave

 

[PerryM]

It depends on the definition of "is" is....

It depends what your definition of “tiger” is.

To me a “tiger-trader” is a $5,500 resale unit that exchanges into a $55,000 developer priced unit.

To others it’s a $70,000 developer priced unit that exchanges into anything cheaper.

To many it’s just voodoo and somehow they get a feeling that they did great or screwed the other exchanger.

II and RCI give little guidance, beyond vague references to color of units (Red, Yellow, White, etc) and the developer tries to muddy up the waters with their own colors (Bronze, Gold, Platinum, etc). Within the 2 major exchanges that account for 80%+ of all exchanges made, all the definitions are trade secrets and you are left to guess how they view your unit or how they view the units you want to exchange into.

These 2 exchanges are based up a barter system where you don’t even get to haggle – they just conduct the haggling in secret and you are supposed to feel fortunate that you got any exchange at all.

Point based exchanges are far more open as to what you can use to determine whether your unit is a “Tiger-trader”. In fact in many systems, like WorldMark there is no such thing as a “Tiger-trader” – you just buy as many Points (Credits) as you need to go on various vacations to various locations at various times of the year. Point based systems are based upon a currency.

But to get back to “Tiger-traders” I like my definition and this is why I still use the Week based exchange systems – they are highly inefficient and you can easily take a puny unit and exchange it for a much better unit at a better time of the year. My definition of a "Tiger-trader" is really based upon the stupidity of the exchange companies and not the units.

 

[PeelBoy]

PerryM, in Redweek's model, a tiger trader is a week which can exchange for four weeks.

 

[PerryM]

Efficiency in generating RW Points is key...

PerryM, in Redweek's model, a tiger trader is a week which can exchange for four weeks.

There are NO tiger-traders in the RedWeek system! Just efficiency. How efficient is my unit in generating RW Points. Then it’s up to me how to spend my RW Points for vacations.

This is like asking if the old tube radio I inherited from my father which just got $1,000 on eBay is a tiger-trader compared to the GPS system, the IPod, and other electronic devices I could then buy from eBay with that $1,000. eBay is just a way of exchanging things with other parties and a currency is used.

To me a tiger trader in RedWeek would be one where I get 2 or 3 or 4 or more times the RW Points compared to the MF. Then you could go can go further in determining how efficient you are in buying the unit that generated those RW Points.

I see 2 measures of efficiency in the RW Exchange System:

1) How efficient is your unit at generating RW Points based upon your MF

2) How efficient is your unit in generating RW Points based upon your purchase price of the unit


Efficiency in generating RW Points based upon your MF (RW Coefficient of MF) :
RW Points / MF (The larger the number the more efficient you are)

Efficiency in generating RW Points based upon the purchase price of unit (RW Coefficient of Purchase Price):

RW Points/Purchase price (The larger the number the more efficient you are)

e.g.
RW Points = 1,180 gotten from deposit
MF $465
Cost to buy $2,500

RW Coefficient of MF = 1,180/$465 = 2.53
RW Coefficient of Purchase Price = 1,180/$2,500 = .472.

You could multiply both together to get the RedWeek Coefficient of Efficiency:
2.53 * .472 = 1.194

I’m betting that this is a fantastic number.

Conclusion:
Forget about Tiger Traders in RedWeek and concentrate on generating RW Points with the least amount of purchase price and yearly MF. Then spend the RW Points anyway you want.

Like I've been saying the RW Point system is a very different system than most folks are used to.

 

[chellej]

In the past tuggers have conducted trade tests which compares the trade power of the different resorts by conducting the same search at the same time an comparing the results. Those results are still available on the sightings board.

I don't look at it as a monetary upgrade rather that my week will see everything that is available at any point in time - it will be able to see anything that is posted in the sightings section.

There is also the monetary upgrade as Perry mentioned - I traded a week through interval I paid $1000 for and maintenance fees of ~$550 for a prime Newport Coast Villa that would cost $29000 to purchase.

Typical tiger traders are Southern Calf beach summer weeks, Colorado & Utah Ski weeks, east coast summer beach weeks, Summer weeks near the National Parks, etc. It doesn't necessarily have to be a high end resort, demand is more important.

 

[e.bram]

PERRYM:
Unfortunately the sample size provided by RW is orders of magnitude to small to determine anything statistically significant about your Efficiency Coefficient for any given resort.

If you have an II resort you can search first to determine if exchange is equivalent in your opinion. If not don't swap.

 

[PerryM]

PERRYM:
Unfortunately the sample size provided by RW is orders of magnitude to small to determine anything statistically significant about your Efficiency Coefficient for any given resort.

If you have an II resort you can search first to determine if exchange is equivalent in your opinion. If not don't swap.

Correct, a year needs to go by to get a feeling as to how RW is implementing and managing their new system. I placed enough confidence in RW to deposit 2 great, first rate, weeks – now I will have to wait and see if my hunches are correct.


All my fantastic exchanges in II and RCI have come about by using the insane rules both exchanges use to determine who gets an exchange. I really can’t relate these exchanges to what I can see by unit a unit to sniff around II. RCI I never see anything anyway - all the good exchanges are snapped up by on-going searches; just like II.

Many of my great exchanges come about by studying II and knowing where various II rules conflict with each other and what should not happen, happens.


I would encourage everyone to create their own risk/reward indicators to help them with a timeshare purchase or to analyze current holdings. I like the following:

How long will it take me to rent the unit out and repay my portfolio for the money loaned plus MFs?

e.g.
If a unit cost you $2,500 to buy and rents for $1,100 a year and has a MF of $465 – how long before I break even? (not taking into account inflation)
$2,500 loaned from me to me at 7% (lost opportunity if you want) = $175

year 1:

MF of $465
Rental income of $1,100.

At the end of year 1 the “loan” is $2,500 +465 +175 - $1,100 = $2,040,
Repeat this until you break even. In this case about 5.5 years.

Since this uses rental income that approximates RW Points this is a handy indicator too.

At the end of 5.5 years that timeshare is free and clear and all monies released to another project. If I decide to use the unit and not rent it out I still view it that way - paid off.

 

[CatLovers]

I've seen this term used several times recently here on TUG. I presume it means a TS that trades well, or at least, better than average. But how is that measured? What is considered "average?" Is there a way to compare one resort's trading power side by side with another, so as to determine the relative "tiger" status? How can I tell if my resorts are tigers or not? Is there a list someplace? And are there various shades of, er... "tiger-ness?"

Anyone have ideas?

Dave

To go back to the OP's question, to me a "tiger trader" is a week that will pull just about anything that is available in a exchange company's system at any moment in time. I have a couple of Canadian Rockies summer weeks that I have traded in RCI for many years. If it's available in inventory in RCI's system, these weeks will pull it. In contrast, I have a couple of other weeks that are not tigers, since if I search with them right after I search with the tigers, I pull relatively fewer resorts, and never the "hard-to-get" ones. In a TUG trade test that we did here several years ago, these two tigers fared very well.

So tigers are weeks that have pulling power. Of course, the week that you want has to be available in inventory in the first place. For example, even with my tigers, I could probably never get a Westin St. John ... because almost no owners deposit them into RCI. If an owner did, I bet you I could snag it though.

 

[Carol C]

I want to add that "Gold Crown" ain't all it's cracked up to be when considering tigerosity. RCI imposes quality filters and depending on which timeshare you bought first and its quality according to RCI (that's the resort associated with the first 4 digits of your RCI membership number)...you could end up having great exchanges pass you by because the filter won't let you see the available exchanges. RCI in other words deems certain resorts beneath you and your assumed high-brow taste in resorts. I actually know of a North Carolina resort that asked RCI *not* to give them Gold Crown or RID/Silver Crown anymore, because of the lofty expectations of exchange guests. So...don't be surprised when a Gold Crown resort, even in prime season, doesn't "see" cool stuff online that others are seeing (for example, many European resorts are "standard" so if you own Gold Crown you might not be seeing many top destinations in Europe when you "shop" with your week online.)

Hope this helps...but I probably made it even more confusing!

 

[DaveNV]

Thanks, everyone, for the insights. That gives me a better idea of what to expect. I'm still fairly new to this stuff, and I'm trying to make the most of what I own.

I want to add that "Gold Crown" ain't all it's cracked up to be when considering tigerosity. RCI imposes quality filters and depending on which timeshare you bought first and its quality according to RCI (that's the resort associated with the first 4 digits of your RCI membership number)...you could end up having great exchanges pass you by because the filter won't let you see the available exchanges. RCI in other words deems certain resorts beneath you and your assumed high-brow taste in resorts.

So now I wonder if the reverse is also true? That is, do those same RCI filters read the first four digits of my account number, and DENY me access to "higher-brow" resorts I'm not "entitled" to, even though my deposited week is a better one that the initial one that gave me my account number?

Case in point: I first bought at Kuhio Banyan Club, an admittedly lower-brow place. The TUG rating is something like 4.5. That was the resort I owned when I joined RCI, and my RCI account number starts with the resort number for the KBC. I next purchased at Mauna Loa Villages, a much nicer place, and currently rated as Silver Crown (used to be Gold Crown.) I think the TUG rating is around 7.5. I've been to both resorts, and there is literally no comparison between them. MLV is substantially better than KBC.

Yet when I try to exchange a quality week deposited from each resort, (December at KBC vs. June at MLV), I see all the same results with maybe one or two fewer being pulled by KBC. And the ones KBC doesn't pull don't seem to be all that great. So I'm left to wonder what makes a "tiger trader," and how can I know the difference? At first glance, I'd expect MLV to pull much better results than KBC. But if KBC pulls the same relative group of resorts that MLV pulls, then why own at MLV? MFs are almost twice what they are at KBC - seems if the goal is to use it for trading, then owning KBC isn't such a bad thing after all? Or is it just likely the higher-brow resorts the MLV would normally pull just aren't in inventory at the moment? The test trades found on TUG are a good idea, but the ones I need either aren't there, or are several years old.

Anyone have further ideas about all this stuff?

Thanks,
Dave

 

[ffxjack]

I would encourage everyone to create their own risk/reward indicators to help them with a timeshare purchase or to analyze current holdings. I like the following:

How long will it take me to rent the unit out and repay my portfolio for the money loaned plus MFs?

e.g.
If a unit cost you $2,500 to buy and rents for $1,100 a year and has a MF of $465 – how long before I break even? (not taking into account inflation)
$2,500 loaned from me to me at 7% (lost opportunity if you want) = $175

year 1:

MF of $465
Rental income of $1,100.

At the end of year 1 the “loan” is $2,500 +465 +175 - $1,100 = $2,040,
Repeat this until you break even. In this case about 5.5 years.

Since this uses rental income that approximates RW Points this is a handy indicator too.

At the end of 5.5 years that timeshare is free and clear and all monies released to another project. If I decide to use the unit and not rent it out I still view it that way - paid off.

I think this is a good way of looking at it. However, it seems this method fails to account for some TS which have better residual value. Assuming you bought preconstruction or resale, one may be able to get an equal amount or even appreciated amount back after using it for vacationing or rental for a few years.

 

[timeos2]

It's still a cat but the growl isn't as good

The tiger of yesterday is likely to be the pussy cat of tomorrow so be pleased if your week trades well while expecting that it won't.

 

[Kona Lovers]

And are tiger trades determined by regions?

Can a tiger be determined by what it brings from other regions, for example, a smaller Hawaii property pulling bigger units in Orlando, or elsewhere?

 

[bnoble]

I use a model very similar to Perry's to value purchases. I use 8% cost of capital, and if I can't make back the entire purchase cost in 10 years or less, I pass. I rarely rent my units out; this is just the technique I use to value the week.

This probably undervalues the week, because there may be residual value, and there is also some benefit in not having to find and negotiate a rental---it's much easier to just use your week (or points, in a mini-system) as you wish. But, I prefer to be conservative, as there are so many weeks out there, it's easy to find one that fits if you are patient.

I'm also intrigued by the RW Metric. I have a summer Wisconsin week that was offered 1450 points a bit more than one year in advance of check-in. MFs of $488, purchse cost of $855, so MF Eff of 2.97, and a purchase Eff of 1.69, for a total over 5. I'm getting a lot of help from that low purchase price, though.

As for the OP's question: a tiger trader is something that everyone who doesn't own wants, but no one who does own is willing to give up.

Edited to add: and as timeos points out, both of those desires can be fickle indeed. And, that brings me back to why I value my ownerships the way I do---they perform well for me even if I never, ever exchange them. Exchanging is gravy. I have young kids, and go to places that are "overbuilt" often, so the gravy is good. But, even when our tastes mature, and we want steak in a mushroom cabernet sauce rather than chicken-fried steak-n-gravy, we'll still be okay.

 

[Dani]

Thanks, everyone, for the insights. That gives me a better idea of what to expect. I'm still fairly new to this stuff, and I'm trying to make the most of what I own.



So now I wonder if the reverse is also true? That is, do those same RCI filters read the first four digits of my account number, and DENY me access to "higher-brow" resorts I'm not "entitled" to, even though my deposited week is a better one that the initial one that gave me my account number?

e

Dave,

I just saw this thread, so I am just now responding. The answer to your question is no. It does not matter what resort number is linked to your account when it comes to determining the trade power of an individual week in your account. Each week is given it's own trade power assignment. You could even have several weeks at the same resort deposited in your account and each might trade differently depending upon the trade power assigned to each week. Your week at MLV trades poorly because it likely lacks trade power. Take another look at Carol's post above. The mere fact that your week may be a Silver or Gold Crown week has little to nothing to do with the trade power assigned to a particular week. In fact, many standard weeks will out-trade Gold and Silver Crown weeks. The only thing a weak trading Silver or Gold Crown resort will do for you is get you shut out of so-called lower quality resort that you might actually want to go to.

RCI uses the resort number assigned to your account in order to determine which Extra Vacation weeks you can trade into. The lower the quality rating of the resort assigned to your account number, the more resorts you will see as Extra Vacations.

 

[Dani]

Can a tiger be determined by what it brings from other regions, for example, a smaller Hawaii property pulling bigger units in Orlando, or elsewhere?

No. Your studio in Hawaii may pull 2 and 3 bedroom units in Orlando because of an over-supply of weeks in Orlando. 2 and 3 bedroom units are easy to obtain in Orlando. IMHO, the best way to determine the strength of your week is to compare your week to others. When you see a sighting of an hard to get week on the Sightings board, compare yours to see if you can also pull the same weeks. After a few tests, you will begin to see what kind of week you have. You can also ask a good TUG friend with a known tiger trader to do some trade tests for you.

 

[Courts]

I want to add that "Gold Crown" ain't all it's cracked up to be when considering tigerosity. RCI imposes quality filters and depending on which timeshare you bought first and its quality according to RCI (that's the resort associated with the first 4 digits of your RCI membership number)...you could end up having great exchanges pass you by because the filter won't let you see the available exchanges. RCI in other words deems certain resorts beneath you and your assumed high-brow taste in resorts. I actually know of a North Carolina resort that asked RCI *not* to give them Gold Crown or RID/Silver Crown anymore, because of the lofty expectations of exchange guests. So...don't be surprised when a Gold Crown resort, even in prime season, doesn't "see" cool stuff online that others are seeing (for example, many European resorts are "standard" so if you own Gold Crown you might not be seeing many top destinations in Europe when you "shop" with your week online.)

Hope this helps...but I probably made it even more confusing!

I must agree on this point. I care about the quality of the unit and furnishings and cleanliness. All the other BS included in the "Gold Crown" award are meaningless to me.



.

 

[JudyS]

... It does not matter what resort number is linked to your account when it comes to determining the trade power of an individual week in your account. Each week is given it's own trade power assignment. You could even have several weeks at the same resort deposited in your account and each might trade differently depending upon the trade power assigned to each week. ...
RCI uses the resort number assigned to your account in order to determine which Extra Vacation weeks you can trade into. The lower the quality rating of the resort assigned to your account number, the more resorts you will see as Extra Vacations.

Dani, do you know if it works the same way for VEP? In other words, if my first resort with RCI had very high VEP week and I later add a very low VEP week to my RCI account, I realize that I would be shut out of low VEP Extra vacations for my whole account. But, what of trades? Would I also be shut out of low VEP trades for my whole account, or would only my high VEP week be shut out of trading into low VEP resorts?

Also, does anyone know how it works in II? If I have a high quality and a low quality resort in the same account, will they have different quality filter applied?

By the way, I agree with the comments that being Gold/Silver crown doesn't help trading ability in RCI at all. In fact, I believe it hurts trading ability by quite a bit, since it shuts traders out of the lower VEP resorts. Unfortunately, as part of their sales strategy, many resorts insist on promoting the myth that Gold Crown status helps trading power.

 

[LLW]

Dani, do you know if it works the same way for VEP? In other words, if my first resort with RCI had very high VEP week and I later add a very low VEP week to my RCI account, I realize that I would be shut out of low VEP Extra vacations for my whole account. But, what of trades? Would I also be shut out of low VEP trades for my whole account, or would only my high VEP week be shut out of trading into low VEP resorts?

Also, does anyone know how it works in II? If I have a high quality and a low quality resort in the same account, will they have different quality filter applied?

For II:

I often have different Worldmark deposits in my II account, plus the WM Float week (which has the trade power and quality of the WM bulk deposits). They each have different quality filters.

 

[Judy]

Dani, do you know if it works the same way for VEP? In other words, if my first resort with RCI had very high VEP week and I later add a very low VEP week to my RCI account, I realize that I would be shut out of low VEP Extra vacations for my whole account. But, what of trades? Would I also be shut out of low VEP trades for my whole account, or would only my high VEP week be shut out of trading into low VEP resorts?

Each of your resorts trades with its own VEP. Only your high VEP resort would be shut out of low VEP trades.

Also, does anyone know how it works in II? If I have a high quality and a low quality resort in the same account, will they have different quality filter applied?

In II also, each of your resorts trades according to its own Quality Rating. But I think that your access to Getaways is based on your lowest VEP resort.

By the way, I agree with the comments that being Gold/Silver crown doesn't help trading ability in RCI at all. In fact, I believe it hurts trading ability by quite a bit, since it shuts traders out of the lower VEP resorts. Unfortunately, as part of their sales strategy, many resorts insist on promoting the myth that Gold Crown status helps trading power.

That has been my experience in both RCI and II. My highest VEP resort, the Ridge Tahoe week 7, almost always pulls fewer exchange options than any of my others.

 

[Mom Poppins]

In the past tuggers have conducted trade tests which compares the trade power of the different resorts by conducting the same search at the same time an comparing the results. Those results are still available on the sightings board.

I don't look at it as a monetary upgrade rather that my week will see everything that is available at any point in time - it will be able to see anything that is posted in the sightings section.

There is also the monetary upgrade as Perry mentioned - I traded a week through interval I paid $1000 for and maintenance fees of ~$550 for a prime Newport Coast Villa that would cost $29000 to purchase.

Typical tiger traders are Southern Calf beach summer weeks, Colorado & Utah Ski weeks, east coast summer beach weeks, Summer weeks near the National Parks, etc. It doesn't necessarily have to be a high end resort, demand is more important.

Where is the "sightings board". I don't see a thread for that topic. Can someone assist. I own DVC but I also own at Tanglewood Resort in Pottsboro a 2 bedroom. I have been able to pull Disney which is what I wanted. Does that mean it shows me everything Disney has or are they filtered as well. If I see Disney is it showing me evething Disney has to currently offer ?

Thanks!

 

[tashamen]

Where is the "sightings board". I don't see a thread for that topic.

You have to be a TUG member and logged in to see the Sightings board. It's below the TUG Lounge.

 

[Dani]

Dani, do you know if it works the same way for VEP? In other words, if my first resort with RCI had very high VEP week and I later add a very low VEP week to my RCI account, I realize that I would be shut out of low VEP Extra vacations for my whole account. But, what of trades? Would I also be shut out of low VEP trades for my whole account, or would only my high VEP week be shut out of trading into low VEP resorts?

Also, does anyone know how it works in II? If I have a high quality and a low quality resort in the same account, will they have different quality filter applied?

By the way, I agree with the comments that being Gold/Silver crown doesn't help trading ability in RCI at all. In fact, I believe it hurts trading ability by quite a bit, since it shuts traders out of the lower VEP resorts. Unfortunately, as part of their sales strategy, many resorts insist on promoting the myth that Gold Crown status helps trading power.

Judy's answer is the same as the one I would I have given. I agree completely with respect to both RCI and II.

 

[JudyS]

Thank you Dani, LLW, and (the other) Judy!

... I own DVC but I also own at Tanglewood Resort in Pottsboro a 2 bedroom. I have been able to pull Disney which is what I wanted. Does that mean it shows me everything Disney has or are they filtered as well. If I see Disney is it showing me evething Disney has to currently offer? ...

No, not necessarily. The fact that you see some DVC properties means that the resort you are using to search has a high enough quality rating to trade into the DVC. You still need enough trading power to pull particular DVC deposits. For example, yesterday I was able to see three Vero Beach DVC studios with my weakest trader (a "mud" week at a Colorado Ski resort). A strong weak (Christmas week) at the exact same resort saw 10 Vero Beach DVC deposits for the same time period, including a two-bedroom.