Welk/Hyatt Maintenance Fees [and Marriott's Influence?]

[DayTraveler]

You're basically in "you can't fight city hall" territory. The new Florida law which requires condo communities to increase reserves and perform more maintenance (so that condos don't collapse and kill their occupants) is hitting Florida timesharing hard -- and any points-only system with condos in Florida.

Home maintenance is more expensive, too. It's no different -- except for the fact that I'm shopping my best deals and doing the work myself on home maintenance. With a condo association, they only deal with contractors. That means everything costs more. It's basically the same as complaining about the cost of a restaurant -- food went up, utilities went up, commercial rent skyrocketed, and the employees want a raise or else they'll be homeless.

My maintenance fees went up a third this year because of that new law. I'd LOVE to have a mere 18% increase. I don't really care about this increase because I'm still able to wring 3-5 weeks of vacation out of my single week. That means my per-night cost is anywhere between $60 to $100. That's still a solid win for timesharing over even cheap hotels like Motel 6.

I don't have the knowledge that these posting TUG folks have but I don't agree with your response based on what I am seeing from other experienced folks.

 

[ScoopKona]

I don't have the knowledge that these posting TUG folks have but I don't agree with your response based on what I am seeing from other experienced folks.

I don't think you're looking at this the right way. Maintenance fees go up. We all knew this when we purchased. We've seen the first real inflation in decades. Everything went up. Including vacations.

Compare your maintenance fee to the increases in hotel stays. Hotels have gone up even more. Instead of complaining about the cost of maintenance, many of these operations should be commended for holding the line to the extent possible in the face of the worst inflation since the 1980s.

 

[DayTraveler]

I don't think you're looking at this the right way. Maintenance fees go up. We all knew this when we purchased. We've seen the first real inflation in decades. Everything went up. Including vacations.

Compare your maintenance fee to the increases in hotel stays. Hotels have gone up even more. Instead of complaining about the cost of maintenance, many of these operations should be commended for holding the line to the extent possible in the face of the worst inflation since the 1980s.

Well look at what other TUG members have shared others are keeping costs down. We own at Coronado and I don't think they have gone up more than 1% for 7 years. My wife stayed in a lovely hotel in Poulsbo over the holiday weekend for only $120 a night. I don't want to argue I just don't agree based on my limited understanding and the trust I have in the knowledge of those very experienced TUG posting responses.

 

[DayTraveler]

[Moderator Note: This entire post has been edited/deleted because the TUG Rules prohibit ads in the public forums. Admittedly I can't figure out if you're copying/pasting your comments (so your ads) from Facebook or if they're someone else's, but either way they include the contact information and other sales-related details that aren't allowed here. If there was a point other than promoting the ad from FB, let me know in a private message if there are specific comments not-ad-related that you want to be un-deleted.] <-- SueDonJ

I did not realize I did this sorry. I definitely am not trying to advertise. I am just disgusted with how Welk has changed. And disappointed.

 

[DayTraveler]

You're basically in "you can't fight city hall" territory. The new Florida law which requires condo communities to increase reserves and perform more maintenance (so that condos don't collapse and kill their occupants) is hitting Florida timesharing hard -- and any points-only system with condos in Florida.

Home maintenance is more expensive, too. It's no different -- except for the fact that I'm shopping my best deals and doing the work myself on home maintenance. With a condo association, they only deal with contractors. That means everything costs more. It's basically the same as complaining about the cost of a restaurant -- food went up, utilities went up, commercial rent skyrocketed, and the employees want a raise or else they'll be homeless.

My maintenance fees went up a third this year because of that new law. I'd LOVE to have a mere 18% increase. I don't really care about this increase because I'm still able to wring 3-5 weeks of vacation out of my single week. That means my per-night cost is anywhere between $60 to $100. That's still a solid win for timesharing over even cheap hotels like Motel 6.

PS How do you get 3-5 weeks out of a single week?

 

[ScoopKona]

PS How do you get 3-5 weeks out of a single week?

That's how the Hyatt system is set up. Doesn't work that way for Welk, unfortunately. I'm in favor of integration. Then we'd have one system and not three confusing ones.

You can go to the Hyatt subforum and click on the Sticky "How Hyatt works."

 

[Soccer Canada]

Good luck with that. I'm very unhappy with the MF increases this year, but people are always threatening class action lawsuits against timeshare companies, and it is exceedingly rare that anything positive comes of it for owners. I would think that dissatisfaction with MF rates of increase would not, in and of itself, be something you would have much legal basis for winning such a suit. You'd probably need evidence to prove actual fraud in the way MFs are determined and assessed, which I think might be extremely hard to do.

MFs are approved by individual resort HOAs, and for points-based trusts they are generally based on their share of HOA-approved MFs for the resorts in which the trust owns inventory, plus some additional overhead for running the trust itself. You're more likely to have success pushing back against MF increases by influencing HOA boards, which means getting candidates (or yourself) elected to various resort HOA boards that will strenuously resist large increases. The problem is that it isn't easy to get people elected. I don't know how correct it is, but many feel that the timeshare companies have an outsized influence on who gets elected to HOA boards, therefore making it more likely that HOAs will just approve the budgets suggested by those companies.

All you would have to do is ask anyone who was caught in the Sunchaser mess at Fairmont, BC. Thousands upon Thousands were spent on lawyers for a class action.. Not only did those owners end up paying back maintenance fees, they paid the exit fee, interest on the whole amount from the beginning, and a "because we were right" fee on top of that as well. Now I know there was more to it than that, but on the surface thats how it ended up in the end.
Our new maintenance on 480,000 pts through welk is $3471. This accounts to approximately $867/week, if you put into Interval you add $219 to that. So it works out to $123/night within the system and $155/night in Interval. No one including myself is happy about the fee increases, but really your only recourse is to enjoy the time (we didn't pay anything for these points) realizing that both $123 or $155 per night is still going to be about the price of an average hotel ($148/night). And you are getting an accommodation that is generally nicer. Or you can try and gift the points away as someone did to us previously.
I feel this is what is happening to Timeshares in General. I believe that some folks who own small triennial contracts like at the Grandview may be starting to more and more get it right, pay the maintenance once every 3 years, pay your membership, and book nothing but cheap getaways if you are not picky and just need a decent accommodation in places that have generally a decent amount of availability. If you want to vacation in one place every year at the same time, then probably not much beats the value of having a fixed week if you don't need that flexibility.
Sucks, but I don't know what else you can do. This is why somebody probably every hour of every day falls for a Exit Scam.

 

[Sapper]

I posted this in a different thread, but will post here as well (probably a better location anyway)

Re the Welk maintenance fee increases, I feel like it may be a fox guarding the hen house situation. MVW owns Hyatt/Welk, and they have solid control over the decisions made at former Welk properties. They have already said that there would be an increase in spending at these properties either due to differed maintenance or to bring properties up to Hyatt standards (what ever that may be). Then MVW/Welk/Hyatt decides who the contractors will be, the materials, equipment, furnishings, etc… used. MVW makes a % of the upgrades and maintenance spent as profit. If these costs are higher, MVW makes more money, so they have little incentive to choose the lowest bid contractor, lowest bid materials (assuming same specs), etc. Further, they could be using contractors, suppliers, etc with ties to MVW to further help their bottom line. The increases in both former Welk properties and Hyatt properties have been obscene over the last few years… far above normal inflation levels.

The evil business side of me thinks this is intentional because it is a win/win for MVW. Either the obscene maintenance fees are paid, and their profits increase, or owners walk away from their ownership and MVW gains properties for near nothing to either resell or rent, and their profits increase. MVW wins, the owners loose.

 

[ScoopKona]

The evil business side of me thinks this is intentional because it is a win/win for MVW. Either the obscene maintenance fees are paid, and their profits increase, or owners walk away from their ownership and MVW gains properties for near nothing to either resell or rent, and their profits increase. MVW wins, the owners loose.

Because of most states' condo laws, there isn't a whole lot of profit potential here -- other than kickbacks. (The Florida model of doing business.) I'll bet Mexico is an entirely new level of grift when it comes to what happens to maintenance-fee money. But in California, there will either be transparency or the HOA board is going to jail.

I think the case for "MVW wants owners to walk away so we can sell the same resort over and over" has merit, though. That's turned into their business model. Why develop new resorts (all that building expense) when they can create a new "Portfolio" program and resell the same units in perpetuity?

 

[cubigbird]

The fact that MVW resorts fees are increasing insanely higher than most resorts in other timeshare chains in similar locations raises an eyebrow. It does make one wonder the motive. I get the new Florida law but other systems aren’t seeing such massive increases.

 

[ScoopKona]

The fact that MVW resorts fees are increasing insanely higher than most resorts in other timeshare chains in similar locations raises an eyebrow. It does make one wonder the motive. I get the new Florida law but other systems aren’t seeing such massive increases.

Those of us who own the legacy HRC system have some built in cushion -- in that our average price per night can still be the lowest in the timeshare world. (Depending on how the week is used, of course.) It would take much higher increases to make the system unattractive.

Integration would be best for all involved. (And by integration, I mean "all the Welk owners get bumped up to the Hyatt system." Not "Hyatt owners get downgraded."

But since MVW shows no interest in anything other than selling the same condos over and over -- sell, foreclose, resell, repeat. I doubt this will ever happen.

 

[sponger76]

But since MVW shows no interest in anything other than selling the same condos over and over -- sell, foreclose, resell, repeat. I doubt this will ever happen.

I don't doubt that reselling existing weeks over and over is a huge part of their business model, but to be fair MVC did within the last few months announce new timeshare builds in Charleston (not clear but most likely Marriott) and Savannah (Westin). In addition, they are in the middle of construction on a new Marriott timeshare in Waikiki with expected completion some time in 2024. Not sure if there is anything in the pipeline for the Hyatt side, but at least overall the parent company is working to get some new projects going.

 

[ScoopKona]

Not sure if there is anything in the pipeline for the Hyatt side, but at least overall the parent company is working to get some new projects going.

Nothing since Maui. And nothing in the pipeline that I know of. (I still have friends there.)

Selling Portfolio points appears to be the only thing MVW is interested in. They can say whatever they want. But the only thing they're actually doing is selling points which came from weeks they couldn't sell in the first place, ROFRs and foreclosures.

 

[sponger76]

Nothing since Maui. And nothing in the pipeline that I know of. (I still have friends there.)

Selling Portfolio points appears to be the only thing MVW is interested in. They can say whatever they want. But the only thing they're actually doing is selling points which came from weeks they couldn't sell in the first place, ROFRs and foreclosures.

That's what most owners on the MVC and Vistana boards thought about their systems as well, but all of a sudden new projects were being announced. It is proof that overall, MVW is not averse to creating new developments. Maybe at some point Hyatt will get some as well, MVW could just be really slow in getting to that point.

 

[DayTraveler]

That's how the Hyatt system is set up. Doesn't work that way for Welk, unfortunately. I'm in favor of integration. Then we'd have one system and not three confusing ones.

You can go to the Hyatt subforum and click on the Sticky "How Hyatt works."

I thought the site was for both that were Welk and those that have been Hyatt. According to your explanation (which I respect but have a very difficult time understanding how the mf increase does not bother you) one aspect are the Florida components. Now all the owners are getting hit so you would think it should be equitable. I am trying to get out. I don't see it as a value any loner especially since Hyatt made it clear we can expect the same next year. Getting 3 for 1 would help but event that won't last long with the hikes. In my opinion and based on my financial picture.

 

[ScoopKona]

but have a very difficult time understanding how the mf increase does not bother you)

I don't see it as a value any loner especially since Hyatt made it clear we can expect the same next year. Getting 3 for 1 would help but event that won't last long with the hikes. In my opinion and based on my financial picture.

You don't *really* own Hyatt. (I'm not trying to be dismissive. The two programs are night-and-day different.) I've owned Hyatt for 25 years. And in all that time, I have never gotten less than two weeks out of my single maintenance fee. Most years I get three or four. And some years I get five.

A $2,000 maintenance fee does not sting AT ALL, when we're getting 28 days of vacation at $70 per night. You do what's best for you. But the HRC system just keeps chugging along, giving us year after fantastic year of vacations. It's the best toy I have ever purchased. And I could walk away from my week, happy that I wrung every single penny out of it, secure in the knowledge I saved an absolute fortune compared to hotel rooms.

If you want to read how that system works, the guide is stickied on the Hyatt (not Welk) forum. I won't blame you if you have no interest. After all, I don't care to learn any of the other systems. I'm happy with mine -- why learn how Disney works when I never go to any Disney parks?

But it makes no sense to say "how could you feel this way" when we own two entirely different products.

 

[ScoopKona]

That's what most owners on the MVC and Vistana boards thought about their systems as well, but all of a sudden new projects were being announced. It is proof that overall, MVW is not averse to creating new developments. Maybe at some point Hyatt will get some as well, MVW could just be really slow in getting to that point.

It's been almost 10 years since Kaanapali opened. And prior to that, it was Post Oak Ranch. There hasn't been much of anything happening with what used to be called HRC since the initial flurry of activity starting in 1994 with Sunset Harbor.

Hyatt has shown absolute reluctance to develop anything outside the US. (The single Cabo result which came with Welk's dowry doesn't really count as a Hyatt development.) London and Paris would be absolute slam-dunks. Just buy an existing building and turn it into condos. Even when the Pritzkers owned the system, they had no interest in anything international unless it was a hotel -- which is a known profit generator.

They could prove me wrong and announce a dozen new projects tomorrow -- and nothing would make me happier. But I have almost zero confidence that will happen. I have a feeling Hyatt (and Welk) will limp along until such time MVW discovers a way to absorb everything in such a way that it works out great for MVW.

 

[Sapper]

Because of most states' condo laws, there isn't a whole lot of profit potential here -- other than kickbacks. (The Florida model of doing business.) I'll bet Mexico is an entirely new level of grift when it comes to what happens to maintenance-fee money. But in California, there will either be transparency or the HOA board is going to jail.

I think the case for "MVW wants owners to walk away so we can sell the same resort over and over" has merit, though. That's turned into their business model. Why develop new resorts (all that building expense) when they can create a new "Portfolio" program and resell the same units in perpetuity?

They get a guaranteed percentage of the gross plus club dues on each unit owned plus the double dipping. I think they are even charging the management fee on the special assessment at Beach House, as the management fee alone is increasing almost 17%! Then there are all the garbage fees (booking fee, cancellation fee, guest fee, etc) that are near pure profit. This is a pretty good moneymaker for MVW.

Exactly, building new properties is expensive. When you can get the units for nearly nothing, the resale of that unit (or, now the points associated with that unit) is near total profit. Better profit margins and lower cost and risk just taking units fed up former owners walked away from.

 

[Sapper]

The fact that MVW resorts fees are increasing insanely higher than most resorts in other timeshare chains in similar locations raises an eyebrow. It does make one wonder the motive. I get the new Florida law but other systems aren’t seeing such massive increases.

Even properties with in Hyatt, but outside of Florida are seeing substantial maintenance fee increases.

 

[Sapper]

Those of us who own the legacy HRC system have some built in cushion -- in that our average price per night can still be the lowest in the timeshare world. (Depending on how the week is used, of course.) It would take much higher increases to make the system unattractive.

Integration would be best for all involved. (And by integration, I mean "all the Welk owners get bumped up to the Hyatt system." Not "Hyatt owners get downgraded."

But since MVW shows no interest in anything other than selling the same condos over and over -- sell, foreclose, resell, repeat. I doubt this will ever happen.

Some of us want to use the location we purchased at and there is not a good II alternative nearby. For example, I want a specific week in Carmel… I bought that week to use, not to trade. So the increases can still hurt legacy HRC owners.

I would like to see integration, I do not see it happening. MVW has Interval act as the intermediary and can charge more money to make a Hyatt/Welk or Welk/Hyatt exchange vs if they bothered to make an overlay and allow internal trading.

 

[Sapper]

I thought the site was for both that were Welk and those that have been Hyatt. According to your explanation (which I respect but have a very difficult time understanding how the mf increase does not bother you) one aspect are the Florida components. Now all the owners are getting hit so you would think it should be equitable. I am trying to get out. I don't see it as a value any loner especially since Hyatt made it clear we can expect the same next year. Getting 3 for 1 would help but event that won't last long with the hikes. In my opinion and based on my financial picture.

To be clear, to most of the old HRC owners, the maintenance fee increases are very frustrating. Scoop has a different use case than most of the ownership. The majority of Hyatt owners use their units, or use the associated points internally in the Hyatt system. Scoop arbitrages his Hyatt points through Interval exploiting the Hyatt trading power while at the same time targeting smaller units and/or less desirable times. The end result is a much more efficient price per week than what the majority of owners get.

 

[ScoopKona]

For example, I want a specific week in Carmel… I bought that week to use, not to trade. So the increases can still hurt legacy HRC owners.

I agree completely. And yet I'll counter that even with a $2500 Carmel maintenance fee (I'm just plucking a number out of thin air), $350/night for that property is still a screaming deal.

I'm heading there shortly. It's my favorite timeshare on the planet in one of my favorite locations. "Lap of luxury" is the best way to describe that place. Absolutely, it would be far better if the maintenance fees weren't so high. But we both know that all that firewood isn't going to chop itself. And if I'm not mistaken, our closest neighbor (when staying there at least) is Brad Pitt. He bought the property just up the hill. I've seen Clint Eastwood around town. (I wanted to ask him how his battle with chairs is going.) It's a seriously high-end location, in a high-end town, filled with A-list celebrities and cars which cost more than my farm.

This year, with 1880 points, we're doing four days in Carmel and a week each in SF and Napa -- 18 vacation days on a $2000 maintenance fee. $111.11 per night for Carmel, San Fran and Napa -- show me another system which can accomplish this. Even with the increases, these are "too good to be true" numbers. And yet we manage to do at least this well every year. If a timeshare salesperson said we could do this every year for so little, we'd be inclined not to believe him or her.

I'm also not particular incensed about the maintenance fees because property maintenance simply costs more. I'm spending considerably more on house maintenance -- both in Hawaii and on the mainland. Everything from toilet flappers to GFCI outlets costs considerably more than they did five years ago. A 25% increase -- much of which was legislated into existence in my case -- is about what I'm seeing on lumber, paint and light bulbs.

When I started this journey, the maintenance fees were $800. I think Hyatt has held the line rather well on maintenance. They're only a few hundred off the CPI -- and the CPI doesn't have many building materials in their basket of goods. Even for the owner who uses their week every year, the price compared to renting hotel rooms in Key West, Aspen, Breckenridge and Carmel is a deal. How much of a "screamin' deal" is in the eye -- and wallet -- of the beholder.

 

[Sapper]

I agree completely. And yet I'll counter that even with a $2500 Carmel maintenance fee (I'm just plucking a number out of thin air), $350/night for that property is still a screaming deal.

I'm heading there shortly. It's my favorite timeshare on the planet in one of my favorite locations. "Lap of luxury" is the best way to describe that place. Absolutely, it would be far better if the maintenance fees weren't so high. But we both know that all that firewood isn't going to chop itself. And if I'm not mistaken, our closest neighbor (when staying there at least) is Brad Pitt. He bought the property just up the hill. I've seen Clint Eastwood around town. (I wanted to ask him how his battle with chairs is going.) It's a seriously high-end location, in a high-end town, filled with A-list celebrities and cars which cost more than my farm.

This year, with 1880 points, we're doing four days in Carmel and a week each in SF and Napa -- 18 vacation days on a $2000 maintenance fee. $111.11 per night for Carmel, San Fran and Napa -- show me another system which can accomplish this. Even with the increases, these are "too good to be true" numbers. And yet we manage to do at least this well every year. If a timeshare salesperson said we could do this every year for so little, we'd be inclined not to believe him or her.

I'm also not particular incensed about the maintenance fees because property maintenance simply costs more. I'm spending considerably more on house maintenance -- both in Hawaii and on the mainland. Everything from toilet flappers to GFCI outlets costs considerably more than they did five years ago. A 25% increase -- much of which was legislated into existence in my case -- is about what I'm seeing on lumber, paint and light bulbs.

When I started this journey, the maintenance fees were $800. I think Hyatt has held the line rather well on maintenance. They're only a few hundred off the CPI -- and the CPI doesn't have many building materials in their basket of goods. Even for the owner who uses their week every year, the price compared to renting hotel rooms in Key West, Aspen, Breckenridge and Carmel is a deal. How much of a "screamin' deal" is in the eye -- and wallet -- of the beholder.

HYATT did a fantastic job regarding maintenance fees. It was after MVW purchased Hyatt (as part of the Interval purchase) that maintenance fees started outstripping reality… I mean normal inflation.

Yeah, I love Carmel, sad I can only afford to be there for such short periods of time. Had no idea Brad Pitt lives nearby. I knew Clint Eastwood lived on the bluff off to the left when looking out at the ocean, but sold that property back in 2017 or so. He still lives nearby, I am guessing in something with fewer stairs?

Back to the maintenance fee situation. I’m paying something like $2600 this year for Carmel vs half that in 2018… I know you are saying that the maintenance fees reflect inflation, but inflation has not caused things to double in cost in five years. Maintenance fees have increased at double digit rates ever since MVW took over as the management company. This is not sustainable for long. I was thinking about the situation some and may have another reason for all of this. MVW cannot incorporate the Hyatt system into the Marriott Vacation Club system and retain the Hyatt name. There was some agreement when Interval purchased the Hyatt system along the lines that no other hotel branded system could buy/integrate and retain the Hyatt name (Ie, “Hyatt by Marriott” can’t happen). I don’t actually think MVW ever specifically wanted Hyatt, the system was just along for the ride when they purchased Interval. Instead of dropping the Hyatt name and integrating all of the properties into MVC, MVW has instead paid a bunch of money to Hyatt for the name rights and kept the system separate. I know when flipping apartment complexes, one way to quickly increase the valuation is to increase rents. I wonder if MVW is doing with the Hyatt timeshare system what an apartment complex flipper would do, they are increasing “rents” (maintenance fees) in order to increase the system valuation. Adding Welk is analogous to buying the neighboring apartment complex, reducing operating costs through economy of scale, increasing the total size of the system, and of course increasing the “rents”… all of which increase the valuation. All of that to say, I think one possible end goal of MVW may be spinning the Hyatt system off. Who would be the buyer? It can’t be another hotel branded system (as they would have the same trouble with the name or would pay a premium for a name they cannot use), so Hilton, Holiday Inn, and Wyndham are out of the picture. Disney uses its timeshare system to increase park attendance, so probably not them. Most other management companies (like EastWest resorts) are not large enough to take on the new Hyatt/Welk system. What if MVW took “Hyatt Vacation Club” public? MVW would make their money back in the IPO and the valuation would be huge due to the increased size, operating efficiencies, and increased maintenance fees. well, just a thought. I’m off to cook burgers for the family.

 

[ScoopKona]

I know when flipping apartment complexes, one way to quickly increase the valuation is to increase rents. I wonder if MVW is doing with the Hyatt timeshare system what an apartment complex flipper would do, they are increasing “rents” (maintenance fees) in order to increase the system valuation. Adding Welk is analogous to buying the neighboring apartment complex, reducing operating costs through economy of scale, increasing the total size of the system, and of course increasing the “rents”… all of which increase the valuation. All of that to say, I think one possible end goal of MVW may be spinning the Hyatt system off. Who would be the buyer?

I think it's more likely that MVW desperately wants Carmel, Key West and similar. But since all of the deeded owners have contracts, they can't simply put "Marriott" over the door.

Hyatt owners have the best deal of any timeshare system. It can work like a traditional timeshare. Or people who want to trade and leverage can do that -- often with astounding results. I've been gaming this system for 25 years. "Let's take a month and a half off and see Europe," said no other single-week timeshare owners on the planet.

It's both frustrating and funny when everyone on the Timeshare Newbie forum demands that Europe is unobtainable. News to me. It's why I bought this thing in the first place. I hope to go back to trading my silly little timeshare week for a month at a clip in Europe. Right now, the logistics are personally awful. But as I wrestle my current project into submission, I'm going to want to treat myself to a month in Italy. It isn't nearly as hard an ask as everyone else demands it is.

I think that in their soul of souls, MVW wants the Hyatt properties. But they want the Hyatt system gone. No more trading a week for five weeks. No more mid-week stays and keep most of your points. No more trading down in season and getting more time. "[Sound of a pistol being cocked] Congratulations! Now you're all Marriott owners. Take it or leave it. Now do what we tell you." That's what they'd do if they could.

 

[DayTraveler]

It will take me a few days to just digest this stuff you guys are way above my head. I am seeing so many Welk - Hyatt folks trying to give their timeshares away people are very unhappy. Thank you guys for the good feedback.

I attached our invoice it came in the mail today. After jacking our fees they think we should donate money now so our voices can be heard and so we can protect our interests as owners. What a joke. In my opinion.