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We sold WKORV-N

FYI, here are the current prices for 2 bdrm OF platinum floating resales at WKORV-N listed on Redweek and MyResortNetwork, which are reputable resale websites. Note that these are the LIST prices, which is where most negotiations begin. Given that there is literally no difference between the VOIs, if you were a buyer, which listing would you choose?

$25,000 (Redweek)
$25,000 (MyResortNetwork)
$28,500 (Redweek)
$28,500 (MyResortNetwork)
$30,000 (Redweek)
$30,000 (Redweek)
$75,000 (Redweek) <-- seriously?

Armed with similar data, as a seller I had to get my emotions out of the equation and not focus on what I paid for it, but rather what the current market rate is. And the current market rate is ~$25k, give or take. It doesn't matter that I paid $50k for it back in '07; It's simply not worth that much today.*

You may find a buyer who is willing to pay a little more, especially since ROFR threshold is around $28k (it appears), but I wouldn't count on it.

Good luck to you.

*I learned a lesson that you should probably not buy within the first few years of a resort opening. Wait until equilibrium sets in.
 
Last year Starwood offered us an OF at North for $78k during an owners update.
What a deal! :)

Here are the other prices I recall:

North OV-$68k
North IV-$58k

South OFD-$125k
South OFC-$110k -if they had any available which they did not

North OF sale price necessary to get past ROFR appears to have moved up in the last 12-18 months from $25k to $28k. So things are moving in the right direction for sellers.
 
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DavidnRobin-"Do not get ROFRs mixed up between OF at WKORV and OF at WKORVN - or other non-OFs."

David, was this directed to me?

I don't believe I was getting ROFR mixed up on OF. My point was that 18 months ago $25k would most likely get past ROFR for North OF and now it appears you have to be somewhere over $28k for Starwood to waive the purchase.
 
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It was directed at comments being made about ROFR for OF at WKORV and WKORVN - and what Syed (and Fred) have been posting regarding these ROFRs. Why I linked specific posts on these.

The OF WKORVN that LR just sold was ~$23K. I have not seen ROFR that puts OF WKORVN at $28K (or even $25K - or did I miss it - or do you have data beyond what has been posted?)
 
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ROFR etc

Starwood exercised ROFR on my WKORV 1 Bdrm Ocean View and then did not pay me for something like 4 months. They had all flavors of excuses about being short staffed, etc. I had the same clause in my contract--pay in 45 days--obviously does not apply if you are STARWOOD. I am actually glad to be reading these posts as I was beginning to wonder if I was paranoid with being unable to make a reservation 12 months out and calling first thing in the morning. I have also recently sold my Marriott and their closing company is slow as molasses in January--so no better. Even though I love these beautiful high end resorts, I have learned that it is MUCH better to own where the HOA is truly owner directed. I don't like to sound so suspicious, but I really wonder if Starwood is making all the inventory available to those owners paying the outrageous maintenance fees. Those gouging fees were the reason I sold. Marcy
 
DavidnRobin said:
It was directed at comments being made about ROFR for OF at WKORV and WKORVN - and what Syed (and Fred) have been posting regarding these ROFRs. Why I linked specific posts on these.

The OF WKORVN that LR just sold was ~$23K. I have not seen ROFR that puts OF WKORVN at $28K (or even $25K - or did I miss it - or do you have data beyond what has been posted?)
Click to expand...

David,

I gave my best guess on what I believe it would take to get past ROFR based on my knowledge of the resale market, my continuous research and my own personal experiences last year.

I found out I was actually a bit low. Syed believes it would take $29k to get past ROFR on a North OF right now.
 
Mauiwmn said:
David,

I gave my best guess on what I believe it would take to get past ROFR based on my knowledge of the resale market, my continuous research and my own personal experiences last year.

I found out I was actually a bit low. Syed believes it would take $29k to get past ROFR on a North OF right now.
Click to expand...

Regardless - there has been no WKORVN OF that has come close to a ROFR price of $27K or $29K - unless I missed it and I posted links to the specific ROFR posts by Syed and/or Fred from the ROFR thread. The highest i have seen for WKORVN OF is ~$23K - that is quite different than $4-$6K higher than that. perhaps they can go that high, but no one has yet posted one higher than the most recent. Again, be careful not to mix the south and north OF villas as they are different beasts (as well as OFD vs OFC - the only two types worth owning IMO).
 
DavidnRobin said:
Regardless - there has been no WKORVN OF that has come close to a ROFR price of $27K or $29K - unless I missed it and I posted links to the specific ROFR posts by Syed and/or Fred from the ROFR thread. The highest i have seen for WKORVN OF is ~$23K - that is quite different than $4-$6K higher than that. perhaps they can go that high, but no one has yet posted one higher than the most recent. Again, be careful not to mix the south and north OF villas as they are different beasts (as well as OFD vs OFC - the only two types worth owning IMO).
Click to expand...

North OF exercised last month at 24k. Another passed at 26k. Both with 2014 first use and fees.

My guess is that with summer travel (and associated sales) increasing, Starwood will be kicking it up a notch to acquire more inventory.
I would not be at all surprised if OF exercise prices increased by a couple of thousand at both KOR and KORN.
So, although 27k is high (in my experience) for a KORN OF exercise, it may not be in the near future. For all I know ROFR prices may have increased in the past few weeks.
 
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Fredm said:
North OF exercised last month at 24k. Another passed at 26k. Both with 2014 first use and fees.

My guess is that with summer travel (and associated sales) increasing, Starwood will be kicking it up a notch to acquire more inventory.
I would not be at all surprised if OF exercise prices increased by a couple of thousand at both KOR and KORN.
So, although 27k is high (in my experience) for a KORN OF exercise, it may not be in the near future.
Click to expand...

I don't disagree, but my point was stating the ROFR values based on the fact of where they are now instead of a speculative number being thrown about - they do appear to be rising. As I am still ~$20K in the hole for our resale OFD - it would be nice to see them rise (although I am not selling and have no plans to as we love our OFD). I have always thought (and been vocal) that OFD and OFC are 2 unique SVO VOIs worth owning if view and privacy is important. I also think that the ROFR helps to keep them elevated as well as a soft set of the market price (and know that some disagree).

As always - thanks for your input (and Syed's). I know you do not have to, and as NaCl-T said - may not be in your best interest. But great to hear what the ROFR where exerised or waived at - very useful info for those who pay attention.
 
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DavidnRobin said:
I know you do not have to, and as NaCl-T said - may not be in your best interested. But great to hear what the ROFR where exerised or waived at - very useful info for those who pay attention.
Click to expand...

OK, I give up....... Who's NaCl-T?
 
^^^ David, ... You are correct. Before Starwood started exercising its ROFR, the prices were lower. Starwood is forcing buyers to pay more to avoid the dreaded ROFR. If it wasn't raising prices, do you think anyone would be posting here about their concern on a unit they'd love to buy?

You are also correct that the ROFR exercise causes prices to go up and benefits sellers. Nothing about ROFR forces them to accept a lower price.

Finally, the people who should never be buying a WKORV/N because they cannot afford the high annual MFs are starting to be forced out of the WKORV/N market. That means there will be less turnover and more stability at the resort as more affluent people who can afford the MFs buy in.

The people who were looking for steals at WKORV/N are buying at SDO or SBP or SVR in hopes of trading into WKORV/N through II. As the economy improves, they will find less and less availability because the place will rent out to owners and SO owners and it will be harder even for SO owners to trade in at 8 months for prime weeks. That's already started.

It's good for all those owners who rode out this horrible slump and those smart owners who saw the opportunity - and took it - prior to Starwood exercising its right to ROFR. Rental and hotel room prices are also up at HI. Timing is everything in real estate. Salty
 
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DavidnRobin said:
I don't disagree, but my point was stating the ROFR values based on the fact of where they are now instead of a speculative number being thrown about - they do appear to be rising. As I am still ~$20K in the hole for our resale OFD - it would be nice to see them rise (although I am not selling and have no plans to as we love our OFD). I have always thought (and been vocal) that OFD and OFC are 2 unique SVO VOIs worth owning if view and privacy is important. I also think that the ROFR helps to keep them elevated as well as a soft set of the market price (and know that some disagree).

As always - thanks for your input (and Syed's). I know you do not have to, and as NaCl-T said - may not be in your best interest. But great to hear what the ROFR where exerised or waived at - very useful info for those who pay attention.
Click to expand...

David,

I think you misunderstood my point. All I was stating is that to pass ROFR one must make an educated guess regarding what price will get past Starwood. This guess includes research, data, market conditions and expert Broker knowledge. As no one except Starwood knows what they will purchase and what they won't, it is always a guess and nothing more. And since past ROFR figures are a lagging indicator, they do not reflect current market conditions which are constantly changing.

As with my own example, my $32k for OFC was waived and another OFC for $33k was not waived soon after my purchase.
 
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Fredm said:
North OF exercised last month at 24k. Another passed at 26k. Both with 2014 first use and fees.

My guess is that with summer travel (and associated sales) increasing, Starwood will be kicking it up a notch to acquire more inventory.
I would not be at all surprised if OF exercise prices increased by a couple of thousand at both KOR and KORN.
So, although 27k is high (in my experience) for a KORN OF exercise, it may not be in the near future. For all I know ROFR prices may have increased in the past few weeks.
Click to expand...
I agree with you. The economy in Hawaii is improving, I read the other day. Tourists are back and certainly the Asians from Japan and other countries too from over there. They want to travel just like we do and HI is closer than the rest of the USA or Europe.

Personally, I believe that the Hyatt Residence Club is going to benefit all the major hotel timeshare developments on Maui that are for re-sale by owners in the near future. The Asians are very Internet savvy so they will find TUG and RedWeek and My Resort Network or whatever they are called.

Maui is still a very popular Island and not overbuilt yet at the moment and Ko'olina has the Disney Aulani next door that is presently selling points. There are even more Japanese tourists on Oahu than in Maui. Everything depends on the economy so we have to stay informed.

We were surprised to see how many tourists there were on Oahu at Waikiki Beach in March but Maui was very busy too as we noticed this at the popular restaurants where we had to wait so long like at Merriman's in Kapalua and the Waterfront Restaurant in the Ma'alaea Harbor and Duke's and Leilani's too plus even at Longboards at the MOC the first night and the night of the buffet. Waiting lines were everywhere unless you had made reservations.

There were hardly any waiting lines for several years on a row so the economy must have changed again for the better. Just my observation.
 
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DavidnRobin said:
It was directed at comments being made about ROFR for OF at WKORV and WKORVN - and what Syed (and Fred) have been posting regarding these ROFRs. Why I linked specific posts on these.

The OF WKORVN that LR just sold was ~$23K. I have not seen ROFR that puts OF WKORVN at $28K (or even $25K - or did I miss it - or do you have data beyond what has been posted?)
Click to expand...

David,

As I stated previously, my best guess to pass ROFR right now was $28k and Syed advised me his best guess was it would take $29k.

I questioned Syed further regarding his $29k figure yesterday and he advised that Starwood exercised ROFR on WKORV-N OF at $28,500 and waived one at $29,000.
 
No worries - I am not looking to sell. We use our 1Bd side of the OFD and rent the studio side to help offset the MFs. We brought resale (from Syed) but before the TS collapse. It is good to hear they are edging upwards (and the ROFR is active) - even though it would take a long time for me to 'break-even' - especially without using fuzzy math. I do not expect it to ever recover - that money spent is 'water under the bridge'. I concern myself more forward looking events - MFs, upkeep, and ability to rent.

I do not consider an n=1-2 to be the determining price (the statistician in me...) - ROFR acivity will depend on SVO's professional evaluation of demand - and it is merely a gauge as their needs to be both a seller and buyer - especially for OF which has a unique value.

As mentioned, I would only own OFD or OFC at WKORV - and would not buy OF at WKORVN even if it were as low as $15K. And sure as hell glad I rescinded a WKORVN OF and found TUG. The OF villas at WKORV are very unique (IMO) - and will always be at a premium, but only for those who are looking for what they have to offer - good size room/balcony, excellent light, relatively quiet, incredible panoramic OF views and sunsets, and privacy.

Like all RE transfers - the final price is the actual price.
Say hello to Syed from me.
 
DavidnRobin said:
Like all RE transfers - the final price is the actual price.
Click to expand...

If I can slightly paraphrase; the final COST to the buyer is the actual price.

Applicable to the discussion of ROFR prices in general, it is helpful to know the TERMS of sale.

A fictitious example of two transactions for the same interval at KOR:

1. EOY ODD sells for $10,000. Buyer gets 2013 use and reimburses seller for 2012-2013 fees paid. Buyer pays all closing costs. Starwood waives ROFR.

2. EOY ODD sells for $11,500. Buyer gets 2013 use, and pays no fees. Seller pays closing costs. Starwood exercises ROFR.

Example 2 is a much lower cost to the buyer. Starwood is putting themselves in the position of the buyer, and pays attention to these details. They are not stupid.
 
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I absolutely love my OF at WKORVN! OF units at WKORVN have amazing views. The size of the units, design and added bonus of studio balcony is priceless. I appreciate others strong opinions about not wanting to own anything else other than OFC or OFD but I do find exessive repetition of the same statements unecessary. To each his/her own.
 
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Just so you know - the OF units on the south side all have lanais too. It's the standard studio units that don't.
 
Thank you Denise. I do know that OFD units have side facing balconies, not oceanfront facing ones like those on the north side. So although the smaller OFD units qualify as oceanfront, their balconies do not, in my opinion.
 
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