Water Softeners, salt or no salt???

[KCI]

We are interested in getting a whole house water softener primarily because of scale buildup. I’ve researched water softeners on the web and find there are basically two types, those that use salt and those that don’t. The ones that don’t use salt, use a potassium-chloride salt substitute (which does not add sodium to the water) are said to eliminate scale and are maintenance free. My questions are, do the softeners that use potassium-chloride really eliminate the scale buildup as advertised? And are they really maintenance free?
Our city water is very hard (19.1 Grains Per Gallon, GPG) and scale buildup is a real problem. We could live with the hard water except for the scale. We have never had a water softener before and are having a hard time deciding what to do. Any help you can provide would be appreciated
KCI's Wingman

 

[ricoba]

I didn't know anything about water softeners until we purchased this home in Vegas, which has one. Water here is very hard. The type we have is the salt one. I really don't know anything about it (other than I had it looked at to make sure it was running well, which it is).

My major complaint is I feel "slimy" after I take a shower. It feels like the soap is still on. But they say this is because now the water is soft it's supposed to feel like this. I personally don't like the feel, but I know it's better for our dishwasher and washing machine to have softer water, so I live with it.

Maybe better experts will weigh in. I'd like to hear other opinions etc.

 

[Passepartout]

Nothing scientific here, just anecdotal. We installed the traditional (uses salt) water softener 10ish years ago. There had been an old one in the house, but it about broke me in salt use. Both expense and carrying 40 lb bags into the basement! The new(er) one recharges on demand and uses about 2 bags a year. Huge difference! Our municipal water is loaded with calcium and will clog a faucet screen in just a few months. Dog water dishes get a crusty white deposit around the water line in a short time. With the softened water no such thing. Soap 'sudses' instead of 'creaming on'. Clothes are softer, towels are fluffier. Word of warning- use 1/4-1/2 the dishwashing soap and detergent with the softened water or you'll have suds everywhere!

Whichever one you choose, you'll wonder how you ever got along without it for so long.

Jim

 

[Rose Pink]

We've had the potassium chloride kind for at least 20 years. I don't know if there is a difference in scale build-up between sodium and potassium. I just didn't want more sodium in my water.

 

[Rose Pink]

My major complaint is I feel "slimy" after I take a shower. It feels like the soap is still on. But they say this is because now the water is soft it's supposed to feel like this. I personally don't like the feel, but I know it's better for our dishwasher and washing machine to have softer water, so I live with it.

Maybe better experts will weigh in. I'd like to hear other opinions etc.

My DH complained at first about the slimy/slippery feel but got used to it. Now we can't stand unsoftened water because if feels sticky.

 

[KCI]

We've had the potassium chloride kind for at least 20 years. I don't know if there is a difference in scale build-up between sodium and potassium. I just didn't want more sodium in my water.

If you have been using a softener that uses potassium chloride for 20 years, you should be able to tell me if you have a problem with scale buildup or not. That's the $64,000 question that I'm trying to get an answer to.
KCI's Wingman

 

[T_R_Oglodyte]

As for preventing scaling, it doesn't make much difference whether you sodium or potassium chloride. The scale is calcium and magnesium carbonates. When you soften the water the softener swaps sodium or potassium cations for the calcium or magnesium cations. Either way you prevent scale buildup because the sodium and postasium carbonates are much more soluble.

Moving beyond that, carbonates are less soluble at higher temperatures. That's why if you have a scaling problems the scale is a bigger issue when water is heated - in coffee makers, clothes irons, or the hot water system in your house. For this reason, sometimes people choose to soften only only the hot water system in the house. Many times that will address the problem sufficiently - and it's a lot cheaper. It also means that when someone takes a shower the water isn't quite to soft - not as "slimy". (But the hotter the shower the slimier you might feel.)

Other benefits of only treating the hot water is that the water you use for drinking and cooking will retain a healthier blend of minerals. When you run the water through a sodium or potassium ion exchanger, it doesn't just remove the calcium and magnesium, it pretty much removes all cations and replaces them with potassium or sodium. So you lose a lot of the other trace cations that are in drinking water and that are important in the diet. So if you blast your water with an ion exchange softener, you need to pay more attention to the rest of your diet to be sure you are getting everything you need.

If you haven't deduced, I'm not a big fan of whole house water softening. In most situations I think it's overkill. Water treatment salesman will push it because they also like to sell servicing contracts and the more water you treat the more you need servicing. If scale is such a huge problem that it's plugging up everything then I don't take issue. (But even then I like the notion of having a small stream of unsoftened water available for cooking and consumption). But in quite a few cases simply treating the hot water is all that is needed.

*******

A side note. Replacing the calcium and magnesium in water water with sodium and potassium can make the water hugely more corrosive. Older houses with iron pipes (such as galvanized iron piping) are particularly affected. So if you have iron piping be careful - you may come home some day to a big mess when a pipe concealed in a wall or cieling starts leaking. (Happened to us.)

Softened water can also be extremely aggressive to copper piping, but that isn't likely to be an issue with the types of waters that are being discussed here.

Also be aware that when you soften water every calcium or magnesium cation that is removed is replaced with two ions of potassium or sodiu,. So the water comes out signficanly saltiers than it was originally. If you're watching your salt intake this is quite important.

 

[Elan]

As for preventing scaling, it doesn't make much difference whether you sodium or potassium chloride. The scale is calcium and magnesium carbonates. When you soften the water the softener swaps sodium or potassium cations for the calcium or magnesium cations. Either way you prevent scale buildup because the sodium and postasium carbonates are much more soluble.

Moving beyond that, carbonates are less soluble at higher temperatures. That's why if you have a scaling problems the scale is a bigger issue when water is heated - in coffee makers, clothes irons, or the hot water system in your house. For this reason, sometimes people choose to soften only only the hot water system in the house. Many times that will address the problem sufficiently - and it's a lot cheaper. It also means that when someone takes a shower the water isn't quite to soft - not as "slimy". (But the hotter the shower the slimier you might feel.)

Other benefits of only treating the hot water is that the water you use for drinking and cooking will retain a healthier blend of minerals. When you run the water through a sodium or potassium ion exchanger, it doesn't just remove the calcium and magnesium, it pretty much removes all cations and replaces them with potassium or sodium. So you lose a lot of the other trace cations that are in drinking water and that are important in the diet. So if you blast your water with an ion exchange softener, you need to pay more attention to the rest of your diet to be sure you are getting everything you need.

If you haven't deduced, I'm not a big fan of whole house water softening. In most situations I think it's overkill. Water treatment salesman will push it because they also like to sell servicing contracts and the more water you treat the more you need servicing. If scale is such a huge problem that it's plugging up everything then I don't take issue. (But even then I like the notion of having a small stream of unsoftened water available for cooking and consumption). But in quite a few cases simply treating the hot water is all that is needed.

*******

A side note. Replacing the calcium and magnesium in water water with sodium and potassium can make the water hugely more corrosive. Older houses with iron pipes (such as galvanized iron piping) are particularly affected. So if you have iron piping be careful - you may come home some day to a big mess when a pipe concealed in a wall or cieling starts leaking. (Happened to us.)

Softened water can also be extremely aggressive to copper piping, but that isn't likely to be an issue with the types of waters that are being discussed here.

Also be aware that when you soften water every calcium or magnesium cation that is removed is replaced with two ions of potassium or sodiu,. So the water comes out signficanly saltiers than it was originally. If you're watching your salt intake this is quite important.

That's really great information Steve. I've also been thinking about installing a water softener, and you pretty much told me everything I needed to know about softening water. Thanks!

 

[KCI]

Also be aware that when you soften water every calcium or magnesium cation that is removed is replaced with two ions of potassium or sodiu,. So the water comes out signficanly saltiers than it was originally. If you're watching your salt intake this is quite important.

Thanks TR, your explaination was excellent and really helpful in making a decision. I just have one question about your last paragraph quoted above. If I go with the potassium, will the water really come out more saltier, and if so, why is it saltier? Just trying to undertand.
KCI's Wingman

 

[T_R_Oglodyte]

Thanks TR, your explaination was excellent and really helpful in making a decision. I just have one question about your last paragraph quoted above. If I go with the potassium, will the water really come out more saltier, and if so, why is it saltier? Just trying to undertand.
KCI's Wingman

Calcium and magnesium are divalent cations. That means that when they are in solution they have +2 ionic charge. Sodium and potassium are monovalent - they have a +1 ionic charge.

Since ionic charge balance must be maintained, that means that two ions of potassium or sodium needs to go into solution to replace for each ion of calcium or magnesium that is removed. So there is net increase in the amount of ions in solution, which means the water is going to have higher total dissolved solids - i.e., it's going to be saltier.

 

[ricoba]

... So there is net increase in the amount of ions in solution, which means the water is going to have higher total dissolved solids - i.e., it's going to be saltier...

So this is probably the reasoning behind the previous owner of this house buying a water softer (salt based) and a reverse osmosis water treatment system for the kitchen sink???? Either that or the salesperson talked her into a two for one deal...either way we are happy to have both in good to excellent working order.

 

[rickandcindy23]

We have a power vent water heater, and we have a water softener. The sacrificial anode is not supposed to rust because it's not a metal that rusts. The water softener causes that sacrificial anode to rust clean through.

TUG members at the time said water softeners are actually bad for hot water heaters. I didn't know that.

 

[Rose Pink]

If you have been using a softener that uses potassium chloride for 20 years, you should be able to tell me if you have a problem with scale buildup or not. That's the $64,000 question that I'm trying to get an answer to.
KCI's Wingman

No, we don't have buildup.

 

[T_R_Oglodyte]

So this is probably the reasoning behind the previous owner of this house buying a water softer (salt based) and a reverse osmosis water treatment system for the kitchen sink???? Either that or the salesperson talked her into a two for one deal...either way we are happy to have both in good to excellent working order.

If you're in Las Vegas, receiving water from Lake Mead, the water is still going to taste bad even after being softened because you haven't reduced the salt. So the water from the RO unit is going to taste better. It's also possible that the previous owner needed to restrict sodium intake. The RO unit would help that.

******

I used to get to Las Vegas regularly for work, and I often spent a good part of the time doing outdoor field work. I would bring Las Vegas tap water by the gallon with me - I wanted the salt to help maintain electrolyte.

 

[ricoba]

If you're in Las Vegas, receiving water from Lake Mead, the water is still going to taste bad even after being softened because you haven't reduced the salt. So the water from the RO unit is going to taste better. It's also possible that the previous owner needed to restrict sodium intake. The RO unit would help that.

******

I used to get to Las Vegas regularly for work, and I often spent a good part of the time doing outdoor field work. I would bring Las Vegas tap water by the gallon with me - I wanted the salt to help maintain electrolyte.

That's interesting. Never thought of the benefits of "salty water" as a good alternative to Gatorade.

I actually think the tap water here tastes better than the tap water at our LA area place. The water from the RO unit is very good.

 

[T_R_Oglodyte]

That's interesting. Never thought of the benefits of "salty water" as a good alternative to Gatorade.

I actually think the tap water here tastes better than the tap water at our LA area place. The water from the RO unit is very good.

I've spent a good amount of time working in the southwestern deserts. I set a policy of making sure I was well hydrated to start the day, and drinking water regularly whether I was thirsty or not. I set an alarm to go off after two or three hours; if I hadn't had to urinate since the last alarm I immediately increased my water consumption.

A factor that people often overlook is that a significant amount of cooling occurs in the lungs, as your lungs hydrate the dry air you breathe. In many cases that is sufficient to maintain body temperature without breaking a sweat. So people sometimes think they don't need water because they aren't sweating, and then they get dehydrated. It's particularly an issue for people who come from humid summer climates, where they don't get that same cooling in the lungs. In the midwest and south, for example, when it gets hot you sweat because that's the only way for the body to cool off. Those of us on the West Coast enjoy the same temperatures without sweating - that's because we're doing our "sweating" in our lungs.

****

Returning to water softening. Many people will blend that RO treated water with some untreated water. It saves money, the water will still taste good (might even taste better than the RO because the body likes to have some salt in the water), and you get the benefits of having the well rounded salt presence.

 

[Passepartout]

Just an addendum. I went to the basement where the ganglia of pipes and water softener reside. It appears that only the water destined to water heaters is softened. That is in keeping with what T.R. explained it should be like. Good to know that earlier caretakers of our old house did it right.

Jim

 

[Conan]

Our well water is rich not only in iron but also manganese. We use a salt-based water softener to help remove both.

I understand manganese carries health risks, which is why we run all the water through the exchanger (not just the hot side).

I generally use 1/3 potassium chloride and 2/3 sodium chloride to reduce sodium intake. I'd go farther but there's a big price difference between the two salts.

 

[Liz Wolf-Spada]

Our system, set up in 94 right after we bought the house, does use salt. We also had them install a reverse osmosis system under the sink in the kitchen for drinking water and cooking water that does not have increased salts. We were about to go 18 years with one water heater, a real rarity here as the heavy calcium and magnesium build up and usually kill water heaters much more quickly. We put it in mostly for the pipes and appliances.
Liz

 

[T_R_Oglodyte]

Our well water is rich not only in iron but also manganese. We use a salt-based water softener to help remove both.

I understand manganese carries health risks, which is why we run all the water through the exchanger (not just the hot side).

I generally use 1/3 potassium chloride and 2/3 sodium chloride to reduce sodium intake. I'd go farther but there's a big price difference between the two salts.

Manganese is an essential nutrient. If you don't ingest enough of it you will get sick.

Toxicity issues associated with manganese are almost exclusively associated with inhalation of manganese dust, such as might occur with welders. We have evolved to obtain our needed manganese orally; our digestive systems incorporate what we need and excrete the rest. Manganese ingested orally would only be an issue if the bodies excretory mechanisms were inundated. But long before that point was reached you wouldn't drink the water because it would be unpalatable.

In the end there isn't a single thing you can ingest that isn't poisonous. None. To say that you don't want to ingest something in water because you heard it might be poisonous means that you should eliminate everything from your diet.

 

[pammex]

Oddly enough,mu husband is a master plumber and we have a water softener ( salt) in our entire house...we do not drink the tap water anyway, even with filtration system. anyway my point our water heaters we have 2, are 14 years old and hubby just changed themas he said way too long for them to last...( we come from Boston) but our home I an referring to is in Mexico. He says water softener has increased the life of all appliances and water heaters..

 

[MichaelColey]

It's nice to hear that newer systems use significantly less salt. One of my concerns has always been that I wouldn't want to mess with big bags of salt on a regular basis (like monthly or more often). A couple times a year would be no problem.

Great info, Steve! It's nice to understand the chemical processes happening in the system.

I really wish we had designed our house with a whole house water softener and filter in mind. We have three water heaters (big house), so just putting it on the hot water wouldn't be easy. I don't like equipment outside, and the water line comes in underground at the opposite side of the house from our garage and pool equipment room (the two places where it would be convenient to put equipment). I wouldn't want to run water lines up into the attic and back down. So it just hasn't been feasible for us.