Trouble using Platinum Benefits [merged]

[jcraycraft]

Cheating the system

This is where you and many others go wrong. Look up the true VIP benefits in the Wyndham directory (pages 346-347 in the 2015 directory), and you will not find Cancel-Rebook listed. What you will find is, “Points Discounts within 60 Days of Check-In” for “NEW reservations.” Cancel-Rebook artificially creates inventory to be booked as a “New” reservation by cancelling an existing reservation and, as fast as possible before anyone else can have a chance at it, Re-booking that exact reservation as a “New” reservation. This is not a VIP benefit, it is a technical loophole. It works, so sales weasels use it to sell VIP ownerships. (They are not known for their honesty).

The Wyndham lawyer is correct. Cancel-Rebook used by VIP owners to turn any reservation into a discount reservation within the 60-day window is a manipulation that cheats the system. Think about it; if it is not a cheat, VIP owners could make any reservation at anytime for their respective 50%, 35% or 25% discount.

Wyndham has recognized that Cancel-Rebook cheats the system since at least 2008, but they have not addressed the problem, so it works until it doesn’t. The Eye of Wyndham is not on the bots (if they exist), either. The result is that cancellations within 60 days of check-in are the Wild West – complete with vigilante justice and survival of the quickest draw.

It appears that you are absolutely right that "cancel-rebook" is not found in the VIP section of the directory. Probably because canceling a reservation is found on page 324 and is available to everyone not just VIP's.

Then if I go over to the pages 346-347-it appears that booking a reservation within the appropriate amount of days until check-in does allow for a discount and/or upgrade.

These are 2 separate functions and currently are permissible as far as I can tell. Appears to be more than a privilege.

It appears the problem with this whole topic is the made-up phrase "cancel-Rebook" and trying to turn it into a 1 step process which it is not or at least that's how I see it.

And as everything that Wyndham does--it is subject to change in order to benefit the stockholders account. That's why I hedged my Timeshare purchase by buying Wyndham stock.

 

[traveldaddy]

It appears that you are absolutely right that "cancel-rebook" is not found in the VIP section of the directory. Probably because canceling a reservation is found on page 324 and is available to everyone not just VIP's.

Then if I go over to the pages 346-347-it appears that booking a reservation within the appropriate amount of days until check-in does allow for a discount and/or upgrade.

These are 2 separate functions and currently are permissible as far as I can tell. Appears to be more than a privilege.

It appears the problem with this whole topic is the made-up phrase "cancel-Rebook" and trying to turn it into a 1 step process which it is not or at least that's how I see it.

And as everything that Wyndham does--it is subject to change in order to benefit the stockholders account. That's why I hedged my Timeshare purchase by buying Wyndham stock.

I agree. I am not a VIP, but I have thought about doing the same sort of idea.

Booking a 3 day at the 10 month mark, when I only want a 2 day, and then waiting until within the period that allows 2 day ressies and canceling and booking the 2 day.

Burns up a RT bt if it is what you want, the system and rules seem to allow it.

Never actually done this, but considered it and may try it in the future.


Not as sure about the stock though......I will have to look into that more.

 

[ronparise]

It appears that you are absolutely right that "cancel-rebook" is not found in the VIP section of the directory. Probably because canceling a reservation is found on page 324 and is available to everyone not just VIP's.

Then if I go over to the pages 346-347-it appears that booking a reservation within the appropriate amount of days until check-in does allow for a discount and/or upgrade.

These are 2 separate functions and currently are permissible as far as I can tell. Appears to be more than a privilege.

It appears the problem with this whole topic is the made-up phrase "cancel-Rebook" and trying to turn it into a 1 step process which it is not or at least that's how I see it.

And as everything that Wyndham does--it is subject to change in order to benefit the stockholders account. That's why I hedged my Timeshare purchase by buying Wyndham stock.

Hard to call a cancel


and



subsequent rebook separate transactions when they are both done within a few seconds. Technically of course they are and thats the loophole that makes it work

It is not what was intended, The intent was that VIPs get a discount to encourage them to make reservations for rooms that would otherwise stand vacant



All that Wyndham has to do to stop the practice is to build in a variable delay between when I cancel and when it becomes available again

 

[vacationhopeful]

...All that Wyndham has to do to stop the practice is to build in a variable delay between when I cancel and when it becomes available again

Ron,

Before you started playing in this sandbox .. Wyndham did have a delay .... nothing cancelled showed up til the next day when the computer system came back up @ 8AM....

Just like ARP booking now - calling the call center or booking online at 8AM.

Cancel and rebook was not something used a lot ....

Seldom wish for those good old days ... although the $29 GCs were nice as were the unlimited FREE GCs for Platinum owners.

 

[ronparise]

Ron,

Before you started playing in this sandbox .. Wyndham did have a delay .... nothing cancelled showed up til the next day when the computer system came back up @ 8AM....

Just like ARP booking now - calling the call center or booking online at 8AM.

Cancel and rebook was not something used a lot ....

Seldom wish for those good old days ... although the $29 GCs were nice as were the unlimited FREE GCs for Platinum owners.

All those changes ($99 guest confirms, no owner to owner transfer of points, instant availability of cancellations, etc) happened before my time and were all done with an eye to making it more difficult and less profitable for the mega renters of the day. And yet I was able to find room to operate, and so have lots of oters, and the definition of mega renter has expanded to the points managers. Then million used to be big, now 30 million doesnt come close to being big

Im not wishing for anything. All Im saying is that Wyndham could take action again, and there will be some owners that it puts out of business (maybe you and me) and yet others that adapt and thrive

 

[Bigrob]

I agree. I am not a VIP, but I have thought about doing the same sort of idea.

Booking a 3 day at the 10 month mark, when I only want a 2 day, and then waiting until within the period that allows 2 day ressies and canceling and booking the 2 day.

Burns up a RT bt if it is what you want, the system and rules seem to allow it.

Never actually done this, but considered it and may try it in the future.


Not as sure about the stock though......I will have to look into that more.

Same here... often you have to book more nights than you want to get the reservation you need. Later you hope to be able to cancel and rebook to the reservation you actually want.

Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.

 

[Bigrob]

I thought you had another room booked and the 4 BR was intended as a rental (so you did not necessarily plan to have that unit). Did you lose both rooms and now have no rooms, as your post suggests?

If you only lost the 4 BR, can check into your other unit, and are eventually refunded your points for the 4 BR, as you should be if what you write is true (difficult to determine), isn't that the same (pointwise) as if the 4 BR had rented? (You do not get the cash payment for the 4 BR rental from a renter, but you get the point refund "payment" from Wyndham).

Hindsight being 20/20, but of value going forward, if you put your husband's name on a guest certificate for $99 for the concurrent unit, instead of relying on what Wyndham "should do" regarding concurrent reservations, you might not have these kinds of problems. Sure these are additional costs, but $99 to (I guess virtually) guarantee a 4 BR in Hawaii, or multiple units later in Maui, would be well worth it. jmho

Why should an owner be required to put a guest confirmation on a unit they are occupying? It is perfectly legitimate to have separate owners on reservations and if this happened as described, Wyndham screwed up, plain and simple.

And by the way, it is not clear that even that would have "guaranteed" the reservation, as you suggest. I know am1 (Adam) has had a reservation cancelled that had a guest confirmation on it.

Obviously, one can argue that owner's "shouldn't" book, cancel and immediately rebook to take advantage of the VIP discount. That it's a loophole in the system and is not working the way it is supposed to, therefore owners should not be taking advantage of it, and if something bad happens as a result, well that's just too bad. But the counterpoint to that argument is that there are still costs associated with implementing this strategy - the OP no doubt booked that 4BR Presidential either using ARP or right at 10-months, and the number of points required to secure that reservation at that time is very high. They tied up possibly a million points for 10 or more months, and 2 months or so prior get the points back as cancelled points they need to use before the end of the year. Sure, they end up getting the 4BR Presidential for a ridiculously low number of points - but it's easy to lose sight of the "costs" associated with implementing this strategy.

There are loopholes in the Worldmark system too, it's just that they are different and may require multiple accounts. That system doesn't allow the same degree or type of manipulation, but creative owners still have found ways to "cheat" that system (using it in ways not intended). And, like Wyndham, there are even folks working for Worldmark that share these "cheats" to, as they describe it, "help owners get the most out of their ownership".

Having said all of that, my experience, and the experience of many others, has been that in general, Wyndham and Owner Care are not "out to get us" for using the system. That's why I wonder if there might not still be more to this story, as being slow to move from one unit to the next after being told they'd have help to move, does not seem to be reason enough to trigger what does appear to be a pattern of paying "special attention" to this account.

 

[Bigrob]

I dont think thats always the case. I presented a "corporate" problem Im having at one resort to the resort manager. He sees the problem and has agreed to meet with me to discuss it further. Ultimately the answer may be that there is nothing he can do, but I get the sense he's going to at least try.

I agree it's not always the case, and to the extent they can, they do try to work with you. My point was that there is often a difference between the experience dealing with resort staff versus corporate Wyndham, and that the resort staff often joins with their guests at lamenting some of the "issues" associated with Corporate. This seems more true at former Fairfield resorts.

 

[CO skier]

It appears that you are absolutely right that "cancel-rebook" is not found in the VIP section of the directory. Probably because canceling a reservation is found on page 324 and is available to everyone not just VIP's.

Then if I go over to the pages 346-347-it appears that booking a reservation within the appropriate amount of days until check-in does allow for a discount and/or upgrade.

These are 2 separate functions and currently are permissible as far as I can tell. Appears to be more than a privilege.

It appears the problem with this whole topic is the made-up phrase "cancel-Rebook" and trying to turn it into a 1 step process which it is not or at least that's how I see it.

Opinions vary, but in the end, only Wyndham’s opinion matters, because Wyndham makes and enforces the rules (or not) as they see fit. If a Wyndham lawyer thinks that two rights make a wrong, then that is the way it is until a successful lawsuit changes their opinion.

 

[CO skier]

All those changes ($99 guest confirms, no owner to owner transfer of points, instant availability of cancellations, etc) happened before my time and were all done with an eye to making it more difficult and less profitable for the mega renters of the day.

A relative few owners abused the rules in place at that time and ruined it for everyone.

 

[Bigrob]

A relative few owners abused the rules in place at that time and ruined it for everyone.

LOL... the owners you speak of were coached to use the system in the way they were using it. Rather than thinking they were "abusing" the system, they thought they were doing exactly what they were allowed, and even encouraged, to do, in order for Wyndham to sell more points.

And the Wyndham party line is that, rather than "ruining it for everyone," the changes implemented are designed to make it more likely that an owner trying to make reservations for personal use has a fighting chance to do so. The only change that impacted the casual owner is the lack of ability to trade points with other owners. The tighter cancellation rules might have caught a few, but generally speaking a call to Owner Care to explain the circumstances will result in a restoration of points on a one-time basis for a cancellation within 15 days. It used to be mega-renters would NEVER release the inventory because they could cancel right up to the day before check-in. (Ironically there are now mega-renters who take advantage of even this rule).

 

[CO skier]

Why should an owner be required to put a guest confirmation on a unit they are occupying? It is perfectly legitimate to have separate owners on reservations and if this happened as described, Wyndham screwed up, plain and simple.

They should not have to put a GC in place, but the OP is worried about the double bookings this summer. A GC is the only idea I have to provide any kind of insurance. Or they can take their chances, Wyndham screws up again, and they lose the reservations. They are right, Wyndham is wrong, but they are left with too many people for only the 1 bedroom unit that is left.

And by the way, it is not clear that even that would have "guaranteed" the reservation, as you suggest. I know am1 (Adam) has had a reservation cancelled that had a guest confirmation on it.

There are no certainties. That is why I used the word "virtually."

Obviously, one can argue that owner's "shouldn't" book, cancel and immediately rebook to take advantage of the VIP discount. That it's a loophole in the system and is not working the way it is supposed to, therefore owners should not be taking advantage of it, and if something bad happens as a result, well that's just too bad. But the counterpoint to that argument is that there are still costs associated with implementing this strategy - the OP no doubt booked that 4BR Presidential either using ARP or right at 10-months, and the number of points required to secure that reservation at that time is very high. They tied up possibly a million points for 10 or more months, and 2 months or so prior get the points back as cancelled points they need to use before the end of the year. Sure, they end up getting the 4BR Presidential for a ridiculously low number of points - but it's easy to lose sight of the "costs" associated with implementing this strategy.

I did not get the impression that they were trying the cancel-rebook with either reservation. Wyndham cancelled the 4 BR Presidential for reasons that are still sketchy. The Eye of Wyndham is clearly upon their account, so they need to tread cautiously and not invite further interest.

There are loopholes in the Worldmark system too, it's just that they are different and may require multiple accounts. That system doesn't allow the same degree or type of manipulation, but creative owners still have found ways to "cheat" that system (using it in ways not intended). And, like Wyndham, there are even folks working for Worldmark that share these "cheats" to, as they describe it, "help owners get the most out of their ownership".

There are loopholes in any complex system. Hopefully, the abuses by a few will not ruin it for all of us WorldMark owners.

Having said all of that, my experience, and the experience of many others, has been that in general, Wyndham and Owner Care are not "out to get us" for using the system. That's why I wonder if there might not still be more to this story, as being slow to move from one unit to the next after being told they'd have help to move, does not seem to be reason enough to trigger what does appear to be a pattern of paying "special attention" to this account.

The same thought occurred to me. Someone would have to really work at inviting wrath of this magnitude.

 

[am1]

All this begs the question why would someone want to purchase a Wyndham timeshare as a normal owner? Retail or resale. It is a lot of headaches and horseflies to deal with it.

 

[DeniseM]

All this begs the question why would someone want to purchase a Wyndham timeshare as a normal owner? Retail or resale. It is a lot of headaches and horseflies to deal with it.

Deeded weeks, with no points, at a resort you want to visit every year, work great.

My only complaint about Kauai Beach Villas is that I wish they had an automated reservation system. Their humans are not very efficient.

 

[CO skier]

The only change that impacted the casual owner is the lack of ability to trade points with other owners.

That is a pretty good privilege that I use in my WorldMark account and wish I could use in my Club Wyndham account.

I have also had to buy a few of the $99 Guest Certificates and thank those mega-renters of yore when I do.

 

[scootr5]

All this begs the question why would someone want to purchase a Wyndham timeshare as a normal owner? Retail or resale. It is a lot of headaches and horseflies to deal with it.

I don't know, I'd consider myself a "normal resale owner" and I don't think it's too many headaches. They have a wide selection of resorts in a ton of different locations with great flexibility of use.

 

[am1]

Apparently a Thursday - Saturday and Saturday - Monday split reservation is not really a split reservation but should always require 2 guest confirmation fees paid to add a guest name to the reservation.

 

[Bigrob]

I did not get the impression that they were trying the cancel-rebook with either reservation. Wyndham cancelled the 4 BR Presidential for reasons that are still sketchy. The Eye of Wyndham is clearly upon their account, so they need to tread cautiously and not invite further interest.

The odds of a week-long reservation in a 4BR Presidential being available "on its own" inside the discount window is virtually nil. They didn't specify that they had cancelled and rebooked it inside the discount window, but I can "virtually" guarantee that they did. That it was then cancelled by Wyndham inside the 15-day window was a separate event, so it wasn't that they lost it in the original re-book. At least, that's my best guess.

 

[CruiseGuy]

Apparently a Thursday - Saturday and Saturday - Monday split reservation is not really a split reservation but should always require 2 guest confirmation fees paid to add a guest name to the reservation.

I would think that this would depend on the availability of a single unit, and also the time of year. If it's during Prime season for the resort, and requires a check in or check out on Friday, Saturday, or Sunday, then it would require two guest confirmations in order to meet those conditions.

 

[am1]

Across the board. The point is the OR rep was out of touch with actual policy and reality but if he says he is the highest you can speak with short of legal where do you go from there. I know every other agent would not have an issue with this. No where in the rules I have seen states what I was told either.

Wyndham is not user friendly even though 98% of the people working for the company go above and beyond.

 

[travelwyndham]

Wyndham will remove the "flag" on account if we spend $70000 and go to PR?

Well, it just keeps happening... After Wyndham cancelled our 4 bedroom presidential at Waikiki (3 weeks later they admitted wrongdoing and reinstated the points), they are now saying that they won't honor my reservations for my guests who are set to check in at Wyndham Emerald Grand for Father's Day week. The option is- get my points back or they can have a studio or maybe 1 bedroom unit at Panama City (Emerald Grand has all 3 bedroom units). The guests have their airline tickets, time off from work, etc and its supposed to be a large family reunion (4 units for the entire family). I don't have any other rentals at Emerald Grand.

I went to my sales update yesterday and was told that this is happening because we are flagged as mega renters. We have approximately 6 million points with a reservation everyday from now until March 2016 (for us to stay in for travel). I rent out points that I get back from getting my discounts on my own stays.

They offered us a very nice option- buy up to presidential reserve for an additional $70,000 and they will reinstate any reservations on the cancel list, un-flag our account, and stop harassing us. We really can't afford this purchase and most people (Wyndham contacts) are telling me that even if they remove the flag during the recession period, they'll probably reinstate the flag later, or they won't remove the flag in the first place because they are bunch of crooks. Either way, the consensus is that this sounds like extortion or a bribe.

I wrote in earlier posts hoping for feedback on the issue of them canceling our 4 bedroom. We are currently traveling using our Wyndham points and other timeshare exchanges, hoping to see as much of the world as possible with our 5 children (ages 4-18) because my husband has a terminal brain tumor.

I've spent way too much time wasting my life on this with Wyndham. However, I need to know that when I book a room and get a confirmation, it will be there when we check in. I also count on these rentals to help me offset my fees and dues with Wyndham. I simply can't afford to start reimbursing people for all their travel fees because Wyndham refuses to honor their guest confirmations (which I pay a $99.00 non refundable fee for).

Anyway, I'm researching this "mega-renter" issue and came across all your posts. Any feedback is welcome. I can't understand why they want to target such a small fish. By the way- they invited us to the sales meeting to come in and give a speech and "lesson" to all the owner update agents because they loved our story so much. They said that Hanz and Meyers would love us and that we are what Wyndham is all about with traveling and family. We have almost 2 million developer points. Ya, they love us to spend our money and crap on us when we walk out the door.

Thank you, Christine

 

[DeniseM]

travelwyndham - I have merged your posts on this topic.

A friendly request: When you wish to add more info., please post it here in the same thread, rather than starting new threads. Thank you

 

[55plus]

I don't think what they are doing is legal. There is no policy concerning renting to others and they accept your $99 per guest certificate so that should constitute a contract between you an Wyndham.

 

[tschwa2]

The only suggestion I can make is stop attending Sales Updates. There is no reason for you to go. There is nothing the sales team can help you with. And of course since their reason to be is to sell, their solution is going to be that you need to buy more points.

The only group that you might want to sit down with is owner care and then I probably wouldn't do it without an attorney present. At the very least you may want to look into getting an attorney to write a letter demanding that Wyndham stops cancelling your confirmed reservations.

 

[Timelover]

I have followed Tuggs for a few years but never joined until recently. I have yet to post anything so "1st time poster, long time listener".
I am so utterly confused by this story. There simply has to be more.
If your troubles started last month, why buy Presidential this month?
If you aren't getting what sales promised in the past, why trust sales now?

I picked up a few things over the years of stalking this site. I've learned more from BigRob, am1 and Ron Parise than not but I smell more to this story!

I too received a call about Emerald Grande. I have a reservation for June 19. It is for me and my family.
On this call, a very empathetic young lady advised that there was an issue with availability and they were contacting everyone who booked last. I booked an ARP but did my cancel/ rebook knowing full well I could lose it. Technically I did book most recent (5/2 to be exact). I was offered to cancel with all points restored as regular or I could move to a 2BR at Majestic Sun. I chose to cancel and book 3 weeks later, I asked for the same point usage and was actually offered a 75% discount, plus she's pooling my remaining 25% and is a reimbursing my airfare. ($150 per person in changes x 6)
When did you rebook?
I knew to ask for all of this after stalking this page for so long.