Timber Lodge BOD election - MVW trying to stack board with employees

[Hindsite]

I am glad you are happy, but am left wondering why you bought when it sounds like what you want is best provided by a Marriott-owned property rather than one that is owned by individuals? If you are willing to share, I am curious what the benefits of ownership are for you and would also be interested to know whether you have ever wholly owned a condominium? I absolutely understand if you don't want to share, but what I am trying to discern is whether owning at your particular property enables you to access what you want at a price that is lower than what you'd pay on the open market. If that is the case, then none of this applies to you . . . yet.

Absolutely prepared to share. I bough quite deliberately from a major global brand because I understand how they operate, for good and bad.
We were at the point of wanting to buy overseas, but struggling to find a location that we would be prepared to be tied to and we didn't want the work associated with managing a property ourselves or even having to maintain oversight of a managing agent. It is my experience that resorts that are independently owned, and HOAs wider, can develop into a clique very quickly, often dominated by 1 or 2 personalities and very much dependent on the quality of the site manager that they manage to hire. If you are aligned with the clique that is great, if not it can be very unpleasant and that's not the sort of thing that I want to be involved in with my vacations, I had more than enough of that to deal with in my work.
MVC resorts, like every business, can also be heavily dependent on the quality of the management team and that has certainly been a feature of the resorts I've owned at in the last +20 years, but they at least have corporate infrastructure to deliver a level of smoothing and to intervene, sometimes helpfully, sometimes not. Basically its a model that I am more comfortable with, and the numbers worked and have delivered excellent value and better quality vacation experiences for more than 20 years.
If you are at the point where your ownership no longer delivers your requirements, then getting out is a far better option than fighting the system, unless that entertains you. I most certainly will be ditching my ownership when it no longer serves my needs, having got decades of value from it.
As Sue said above, if you want to limit commentary to a specific subset of TUG members, then you may be better served setting that out in your posts. When you make generalised comments about how MVW/MVC operate, you draw in those who have different experiences to yours and that may not suit your agenda.

 

[rcdcowner557]

Absolutely prepared to share. I bough quite deliberately from a major global brand because I understand how they operate, for good and bad.
We were at the point of wanting to buy overseas, but struggling to find a location that we would be prepared to be tied to and we didn't want the work associated with managing a property ourselves or even having to maintain oversight of a managing agent. It is my experience that resorts that are independently owned, and HOAs wider, can develop into a clique very quickly, often dominated by 1 or 2 personalities and very much dependent on the quality of the site manager that they manage to hire. If you are aligned with the clique that is great, if not it can be very unpleasant and that's not the sort of thing that I want to be involved in with my vacations, I had more than enough of that to deal with in my work.
MVC resorts, like every business, can also be heavily dependent on the quality of the management team and that has certainly been a feature of the resorts I've owned at in the last +20 years, but they at least have corporate infrastructure to deliver a level of smoothing and to intervene, sometimes helpfully, sometimes not. Basically its a model that I am more comfortable with, and the numbers worked and have delivered excellent value and better quality vacation experiences for more than 20 years.
If you are at the point where your ownership no longer delivers your requirements, then getting out is a far better option than fighting the system, unless that entertains you. I most certainly will be ditching my ownership when it no longer serves my needs, having got decades of value from it.
As Sue said above, if you want to limit commentary to a specific subset of TUG members, then you may be better served setting that out in your posts. When you make generalised comments about how MVW/MVC operate, you draw in those who have different experiences to yours and that may not suit your agenda.

Thank you for sharing.

Please note that I am happy to draw in those who have different experiences, and I do not believe I have dismissed anybody's discussion of their actual experience.

I am also comfortable making generalizations about how MVW/MVC operates and hear others' personal experiences. There is an undeniable pattern and practice that is in the process of being exposed in active litigation.

I have no problem with anybody's pushing back on generalizations with their actual experience. So far nobody has pushed back with anything other than "I am happy so why should I care?" That is fine, and I am happy for anyone in that camp.

However, for anyone not in that camp who is concerned that specific actions of which they are aware at their property suggest self-dealing, they do, in fact, have a remedy and should contact a qualified attorney who can advise them. Or, they can share them here and I will make sure that a qualified attorney looks into them further.

I understand that many are not equipped to "fight the system" or will deem that it is not worth it to them. That is fine, but there are multiple cases in process right now that are headed towards convergence. While "entertaining" might not be the word I'd use, I am relatively well equipped to assist those who are prosecuting the wrongs that are occurring in the timeshare space, and I find the legal issues and the logistics interesting. As I noted on another thread, I hate bullies and feel compelled to fight them where I am able. We all have our hobbies.

 

[wuv pooh]

My Lord - You have no clue. Nobody has explained to me how "it" is legal, and I don't even know what you are talking about when you are refer to "it." This thread is not about whether MVW has the right to run a candidate; the thread is about informing HOA members of the fact that MVW is running a candidate.

Oh sorry, thank you thank you thank you for your warning. No one here has realized in 20+ years that MVW runs candidates. No one has thought about that, discussed the implications ad nauseum, the legality/fiduciary requirements, or the possible remedies. Now we know. Mission Accomplished.

I clearly thought we were having a different discussion. I did not know the point under debate was that MVM runs candidates and my opinions have no relevance to that. MVM running candidates and protecting their interests should be self-evident.

 

[rcdcowner557]

Oh sorry, thank you thank you thank you for your warning. No one here has realized in 20+ years that MVW runs candidates. No one has thought about that, discussed the implications ad nauseum, the legality/fiduciary requirements, or the possible remedies. Now we know. Mission Accomplished.

I clearly thought we were having a different discussion. I did not know the point under debate was that MVM runs candidates and my opinions have no relevance to that. MVM running candidates and protecting their interests should be self-evident.

See @SueDonJ post above where she openly states that she was not aware that MVW runs candidates for electable seats. If one of the moderators of this Forum who has thousands of posts on here learned something new in this thread, I doubt she is the only one.

This thread also highlights that MVW is running candidates without identifying them as individuals who are being paid to be on the board by MVW (e.g., Dan Craig - the President of Timber Lodge). I believe one poster above alluded to the fact that Dan Craig refuses to share the details of his financial arrangement with MVW with a "none of your business" comment. Whether an individual is sitting on the board at the pleasure of the timeshare operator is most definitely the voters' business.

Again, your emotion bemuses me. One might surmise that you doth protest too much, but it is an open forum, so by all means, please carry on.

 

[Dean]

Nobody is arguing against MVW's right to run for board seats where either the developer or the Trust has an ownership interest. Also nobody is arguing against your right to vote for such candidate. I believe OP was providing information that I personally would find helpful were I eligible to vote at the property at issue. I also found it helpful because it provides another data point of a pattern and practice that is in the process of being challenged through appropriate channels. I do believe there are likely properties where MVW's board participation is productive. I also know based on conduct that I have personally witnessed that there are instances where they have used their board positions to self-deal.

Being aware and informed is always a good thing. However, the vibe of this thread from a few has been that this was a problem. I don't see it as such and I do think it can be a positive thing in many situations. While I don't own at either resort in Tahoe, I do think that seeing what happens at other resorts is important for all owners. The problem is that the devil is in the details. This played out for for the Residence club there and I followed with interest. I came away from all that posted thinking it was a mess on all sides but what I saw posted convinced me that was much more of an issue with the BOD than with MVC.

 

[rcdcowner557]

Being aware and informed is always a good thing. However, the vibe of this thread from a few has been that this was a problem. I don't see it as such and I do think it can be a positive thing in many situations. While I don't own at either resort in Tahoe, I do think that seeing what happens at other resorts is important for all owners. The problem is that the devil is in the details. This played out for for the Residence club there and I followed with interest. I came away from all that posted thinking it was a mess on all sides but what I saw posted convinced me that was much more of an issue with the BOD than with MVC.

Understood - you fall into the camp of "I haven't personally seen any problems, and from what I read about GRC, I concluded that the BOD was at fault." Fair enough, but I came to a different conclusion after reading court filings and speaking with principals on both sides of that issue. I absolutely discount the conclusion of anyone who views following an issue closely as simply reading one of these threads, but my opinion on someone else's conclusion is irrelevant. Moreoever, I do not believe this thread was started as a referendum on whether MVW is engaging in self-dealing at GRC, and I have no interest in taking it there. Rather, this thread was started by a poster who was concerned that voters at Timber Lodge might not be sufficiently informed about candidates they are being asked to vote on.

Note that I also appreciate your position, also articulated by others above, that you view a candidate's affiliation with MVW as a positive. Good for you! As I think I have stated a few times now, nobody is attempting to interfere with your right to vote for such a candidate wherever you are eligible to vote. I respect that you don't see the conflict of interest as a problem, and I will not be surprised if 100 other posters chime in to the same tune. While those posts are of no interest to me, it is an open forum, and I applaud anyone's weighing in as they deem appropriate. However, I do think my question about "what's up with the emotion of some posters?" deserves some attention.

 

[Dean]

Understood - you fall into the camp of "I haven't personally seen any problems, and from what I read about GRC, I concluded that the BOD was at fault."

Not accurate at all. I followed the events posted here very carefully and came to my conclusions based on what was presented here.

 

[rcdcowner557]

Not accurate at all. I followed the events posted here very carefully and came to my conclusions based on what was presented here.

I'm sorry, how is "events posted here" and "what was presented here" different than what you "read?" You are making my point for me. You based your conclusions on what you read here. Now I am beginning to think you guys are just messing with the newbie. You got me.

 

[SueDonJ]

Understood - you fall into the camp of "I haven't personally seen any problems, and from what I read about GRC, I concluded that the BOD was at fault." …

This is such a flippantly dismissive argument against people whose opinions are not the same as yours. What you’re effectively saying is, “My opinion is based on facts; yours is not. I educated myself to reach my opinion; you did not.”

That conclusion is not borne out by the info that’s been shared in this thread and others; quite simply, it’s crap.

But you do you.

 

[Dean]

I'm sorry, how is "events posted here" and "what was presented here" different than what you "read?" You are making my point for me. You based your conclusions on what you read here. Now I am beginning to think you guys are just messing with the newbie. You got me.

What more info would I have for what has transpired at GRC or Lake Tahoe besides what was posted on TUG. Esp the actual communications that were posted which is what I put the most stock in. Certainly had I had experiences that would have made me inherently suspicious beyond just healthy skepticism then that most likely would have colored my view. As I stated, I came away from that entire saga with the conclusion it was a mess, that it was very likely that GRC would exit MVC within the next few years and that more of the blame could be attributed to the BOD than the management company. I can't speak for others but for me personally I'm not a conspiracy theorist and tend to be skeptical of such positions. I do not think that large companies are inherently evil including MVC. I believe in personal responsibility and trust but verify. In this situation I have no way or inclination to gather more real data on either location besides what is posted here or in similar other locations. I don't think it would be appropriate for me to call up various BOD members at either, do you? And when it's the same ones bashing MVC in general, I tend to discount their position without specifics. Lastly, I continue to be amazed at those who continue to play in the sandbox but have disdain for the company they are in bed no matter the loss. I'm reminded of the weather related HHI closers and how that was handled and the Covid fallout and the basic positions that boiled down to one's personal philosophy on such matters and in many cases, a lock of understanding of the product owned.

 

[SueDonJ]

I'm sorry, how is "events posted here" and "what was presented here" different than what you "read?" You are making my point for me. You based your conclusions on what you read here. Now I am beginning to think you guys are just messing with the newbie. You got me.

As a newbie you obviously don’t realize the extent to which longtime TUGgers will go to scour information that’s available away from TUG. There are several participating in the many Timber Lodge and Grand Residence Club - Tahoe discussions. But stick around, keep dismissing them out of hand, and you’ll learn soon enough that you’re not dealing with people who are not informed enough to reach opinions that differ from yours.

And we don’t, “mess with newbies” to make a point here. We welcome everyone who can discuss issues without justifying their opinions by dismissing out of hand the other participants’ knowledge and capacity.

 

[rcdcowner557]

Guys - Please show me anywhere I have discounted anyone's knowledge and capacity? I have cross-examined the "knowledge" and my cross-examination confirmed my suspicion of the foundation, which I definitively don't respect, and that is neither here nor there. In terms of reading the communications, you are taking them at face value without even considering that the MVW did not present the pertinent information and was not forthcoming with some quite relevant facts. It seems many of you think MVW is incapable of lying? None of us knows; each of us is free to draw their own conclusion; none of us should be upset that anyone disagrees or does not respect the foundation for whatever conclusion we draw. Being a longtime tugger does not entitle anyone to any deference on conclusions they reach on the very real issues that are present at other properties where those clamoring for respect have no first hand knowledge, but rather are simply reading postings on an Internet Forum. @SueDonJ, in your post far above, you assert as fact some seriously flawed conclusions about boards of directors at other properties that you still have not named and on which you have no first hand knowledge. As a moderator of this site, I would think you might want to check that tone. Either way, the owner of the site might want to keep an eye on that.

 

[Dean]

Guys - Please show me anywhere I have discounted anyone's knowledge and capacity? I have cross-examined the "knowledge" and my cross-examination confirmed my suspicion of the foundation, which I definitively don't respect, and that is neither here nor there. In terms of reading the communications, you are taking them at face value without even considering that the MVW did not present the pertinent information and was not forthcoming with some quite relevant facts. It seems many of you think MVW is incapable of lying? None of us knows; each of us is free to draw their own conclusion; none of us should be upset that anyone disagrees or does not respect the foundation for whatever conclusion we draw. Being a longtime tugger does not entitle anyone to any deference on conclusions they reach on the very real issues that are present at other properties where those clamoring for respect have no first hand knowledge, but rather are simply reading postings on an Internet Forum. @SueDonJ, in your post far above, you assert as fact some seriously flawed conclusions about board of directors at other properties that you still have not named and on which you have no first hand knowledge. As a moderator of this site, I would think you might want to check that tone.

All I can go by is the data presented. Not accepting the opinions of some as fact is not the same as blindly believing MVC is incapable of doing no wrong. I'd encourage you to search and spend some time reading about the Covid shutdowns and how things were handled as well as the weather related closure for HHI. I think you'll find that my views are in favor of personal responsibility and understanding that WE own a timeshare, essentially the same as a condo in those regards. Spoiler alert - my views were fairly company oriented there, as they are for the points skim, but go see for yourself if you like.

 

[rcdcowner557]

What more info would I have for what has transpired at GRC or Lake Tahoe besides what was posted on TUG. Esp the actual communications that were posted which is what I put the most stock in. Certainly had I had experiences that would have made me inherently suspicious beyond just healthy skepticism then that most likely would have colored my view. As I stated, I came away from that entire saga with the conclusion it was a mess, that it was very likely that GRC would exit MVC within the next few years and that more of the blame could be attributed to the BOD than the management company. I can't speak for others but for me personally I'm not a conspiracy theorist and tend to be skeptical of such positions. I do not think that large companies are inherently evil including MVC. I believe in personal responsibility and trust but verify. In this situation I have no way or inclination to gather more real data on either location besides what is posted here or in similar other locations. I don't think it would be appropriate for me to call up various BOD members at either, do you? And when it's the same ones bashing MVC in general, I tend to discount their position without specifics. Lastly, I continue to be amazed at those who continue to play in the sandbox but have disdain for the company they are in bed no matter the loss. I'm reminded of the weather related HHI closers and how that was handled and the Covid fallout and the basic positions that boiled down to one's personal philosophy on such matters and in many cases, a lock of understanding of the product owned.

I find it interesting that you discount the positions of "the same ones bashing MVC in general," but then get upset when others discount the positions of those who always chime in to stand up for the developer and timeshare operator, particularly when they do so with no specific facts, just their general happiness and blind faith.

 

[rcdcowner557]

All I can go by is the data presented. Not accepting the opinions of some as fact is not the same as blindly believing MVC is incapable of doing no wrong. I'd encourage you to search and spend some time reading about the Covid shutdowns and how things were handled as well as the weather related closure for HHI. I think you'll find that my views are in favor of personal responsibility and understanding that WE own a timeshare, essentially the same as a condo in those regards. Spoiler alert - my views were fairly company oriented there, as they are for the points skim, but go see for yourself if you like.

You are going off an incomplete set of "data" and yet are bizarrely confident and defensive about your conclusion. As for your encouraging me to read about Covid shutdowns - what? You are now going off in directions I cannot even begin to understand, other than maybe you seem to be confirming that you are generally a cheerleader for MVW? Good for you. They are lucky to have you as a customer.

 

[Hindsite]

You are going off an incomplete set of "data" and yet are bizarrely confident and defensive about your conclusion. As for your encouraging me to read about Covid shutdowns - what? You are now going off in directions I cannot even begin to understand, other than maybe you seem to be confirming that you are generally a cheerleader for MVW? Good for you. They are lucky to have you as a customer.

If you took the time to get a complete set of data about @Dean you'd know that they are not cheerleading, but I guess that wouldn't suit you to do that.

 

[rcdcowner557]

This is such a flippantly dismissive argument against people whose opinions are not the same as yours. What you’re effectively saying is, “My opinion is based on facts; yours is not. I educated myself to reach my opinion; you did not.”

That conclusion is not borne out by the info that’s been shared in this thread and others; quite simply, it’s crap.

But you do you.

I am going to step away from further discussion with you because I believe you have some serious reading comprehension issues, and I cannot reason with someone who cannot comprehend what I am saying. Nowhere did I say my conclusion was based on facts, and yours isn't. I said we have reviewed different material and come to different conclusions. Neither of us should be defensive about the fact that others don't agree with their conclusion. I am not upset by your conclusion, but you seem quite upset that I don't share it? Seriously, who is overreacting to someone's disagreeing with them in a perfectly rational manner?

 

[rcdcowner557]

If you took the time to get a complete set of data about @Dean you'd know that they are not cheerleading, but I guess that wouldn't suit you to do that.

This is fascinating. I could not care less about Dean one way or the other; I am only reacting to what Dean has said in this thread on some very specific topics and pointing out the places where his points are not tracking. There is nothing Dean can tell me about himself that has any bearing on the very specific back and forth we are having. I get that you guys all have spent quite a bit of time together over the years and have deemed yourselves experts on all things timeshare, but I am entitled to think otherwise; you should not take it personally if I might not think you guys know as much as you think you know. Maybe take a step back and try running my posts past a neutral third party? Or don't, I don't care. For my part, I do like to run these dialogues past third parties for reality checks. So far, so good.

 

[Hindsite]

For my part, I do like to run these dialogues past third parties for reality checks. So far, so good.

Fascinating that you feel like you need to do that. Life is indeed a rich pattern.

 

[rcdcowner557]

I have to do that because I was counseled a long time ago that I attribute more intelligence to those I am interacting with than they might have and that I should try harder to speak to people as if they know nothing and are doing the best they can. It is what it is.

 

[Hindsite]

I have to do that because I was counseled a long time ago that I attribute more intelligence to those I am interacting with than they might have and that I should try harder to speak to people as if they know nothing and are doing the best they can. It is what it is.

That must be such a burden, you carry it adequately

 

[rcdcowner557]

That must be such a burden, you carry it adequately

Thank you for feeling my pain! It IS a burden.

 

[Dean]

I find it interesting that you discount the positions of "the same ones bashing MVC in general," but then get upset when others discount the positions of those who always chime in to stand up for the developer and timeshare operator, particularly when they do so with no specific facts, just their general happiness and blind faith.

Not cheerleading, just interpreting what has been presented on TUG. Regarding Timber Lodge all I've said is that not only do I believe MVC has the right to have direct BOD representation where they own, I think it in the resorts best interest. But obviously it also has the effect of preserving their best interest which is mostly aligned with all owners but not completely. For GRC I said it's a mess and my interpretation of they actual data presented put the BOD is a bad light though it appears there was plenty of blame to go around. I do appreciate Tim posting the info but his subsequent posts suggested it was not simply informational.

 

[rcdcowner557]

Not cheerleading, just interpreting what has been presented on TUG. Regarding Timber Lodge all I've said is that not only do I believe MVC has the right to have direct BOD representation where they own, I think it in the resorts best interest. But obviously it also has the effect of preserving their best interest which is mostly aligned with all owners but not completely. For GRC I said it's a mess and my interpretation of they actual data presented put the BOD is a bad light though it appears there was plenty of blame to go around. I do appreciate Tim posting the info but his subsequent posts suggested it was not simply informational.

What a shock that the data presented by MVW presented the BOD in a bad light. None of us is privy to the terms of the settlement, and the fact that it settled means that there will not be a trial where there would be a full presentation.

I have studied MVW's litigation history and have drawn some of my own conclusions from that history in addition to my discussions with principals on both sides; however, I recognize that my conclusions are not facts, and anyone is free to draw their own conclusions from whatever information they choose to review.

I openly recognize that none of us knows and am not defensive about anyone's disagreeing with my conclusions. I do like to probe the foundation for the conclusions of others that diverge from my own to find out if they have reviewed some information that I have not. If I find out that they have not reviewed any information that I have not already reviewed, their input is interesting, but not helpful to me personally, but what is helpful to me personally is by no means the criterion for what can or should be posted here.

For what it's worth, I am always delighted when someone can point me to information that I have not already reviewed on any issue. I agree that I could have been more delicate perhaps in soliciting that input instead of simply assuming that the asserted conclusions were based on what was posted on here (notwithstanding the fact that my assumption turned out to be accurate).

As for Tim's subsequent posts, I found them helpful and informative. I believe Tim has the same right to voice his opinions as others do, and again, I applaud anyone for weighing in however they deem appropriate. That is what a discussion entails.

I am always working on not being impatient in discussions, and I think everyone should work on not being emotional in discussions, but that is not to say that emotion is never warranted. Whenever I see emotion in others or feel it myself, I try to take a step back and try to figure out what is driving that emotion. For example, I might or might not have said in discussion once with Dan Craig that I thought he was was dropped on his head as a baby; such comments are really never appropriate, and when I found myself making such a comment (maybe not that exact same comment, but something similar), I took a step back and decided to engage in the issues in a more productive fashion, so here I am.

 

[SueDonJ]

Guys - Please show me anywhere I have discounted anyone's knowledge and capacity? I have cross-examined the "knowledge" and my cross-examination confirmed my suspicion of the foundation, which I definitively don't respect, and that is neither here nor there. In terms of reading the communications, you are taking them at face value without even considering that the MVW did not present the pertinent information and was not forthcoming with some quite relevant facts. It seems many of you think MVW is incapable of lying? None of us knows; each of us is free to draw their own conclusion; none of us should be upset that anyone disagrees or does not respect the foundation for whatever conclusion we draw. Being a longtime tugger does not entitle anyone to any deference on conclusions they reach on the very real issues that are present at other properties where those clamoring for respect have no first hand knowledge, but rather are simply reading postings on an Internet Forum. @SueDonJ, in your post far above, you assert as fact some seriously flawed conclusions about boards of directors at other properties that you still have not named and on which you have no first hand knowledge. As a moderator of this site, I would think you might want to check that tone. Either way, the owner of the site might want to keep an eye on that.

As a self-professed newbie perhaps you don’t know that the owner of the site doesn’t read every post, or that there is a “Report” button on every post that will call attention from all of the moderators and admin. Let me help you be sure that the owner is aware of the many faults you find with one of his moderators:

@TUGBrian, apparently you need to “keep an eye on” me.