[ Thread is unlocked ] Megarenter Rap Lawsuit

[ronparise]

So they are smart enough to start up a rental business, but not smart enough to know they need to read what they signed? I could buy they got caught up on the moment and maybe didn’t read it until later, but if they are running a business around their timeshare, they know exactly what was in their contract now. None of this is a surprise to them. They are just mad Wyndham stopped supplying the gravy train with gravy.

Virtually everything I owned was purchased on the secondary market.. I had no contract with Wyndham. except two small eoys, and you are correct, I only read one paragraph. The one that said this $12000 purchase would make me platinum VIP

And I for one never claimed I ran a business,,, it was a hustle, that I operated like a business, and yes I always knew it could end at any time,

 

[ronparise]

You could be right. I still don't know if every 2-5 million owner would be offered a golden parachute even if they ask nicely. I think more likely it would be more akin to limited editions (3 years of use w/o MF's) even on the resale if they simply go away.

You may be right about the little owners like that, but even that wont be offered if the owner sues

 

[ronparise]

So they are smart enough to start up a rental business, but not smart enough to know they need to read what they signed? I could buy they got caught up on the moment and maybe didn’t read it until later, but if they are running a business around their timeshare, they know exactly what was in their contract now. None of this is a surprise to them. They are just mad Wyndham stopped supplying the gravy train with gravy.

I already had a rental business and I was smart enough not to read the contract
Wyndham is still making gravy, and In confident that as long as there are reservations that cost under 1000 in mf, that can be rented for $2000...rentals are going to happen. Thats how I started and I bet that someone will do it again

I got a call recently from a Wyndham salesman trying to get me into a presentation.. That aint supposed to happen. Im supposed to be on a list. I may spend some time at a Wyndham resort and buy something. Ill rescind but before I do Ill dig into the new rules and see what I can see. .. An old guy with nothing but time ought to be able to find a way to make some money

 

[ronparise]

There is no question that the Club Wyndham Vacation Club suffered from benign neglect under the previous CEO, possibly coupled with an unreasonable fear of lawsuits by the legal department leadership at the time.

Personnel have changed in both regards, and with that, maybe Club Wyndham will mostly become a Vacation Club for Owner Usage instead of a hotel franchise for profiteers.

Benign neglect.???. The number of resorts grew, profits were up, Wyndham has always been a vacation club, operated for Wyndhams profit

What could possibly be the motivation for megarenters to collude to take over a single location? Which in addition to having no business purpose, is basically impossible.

exactly. There was no collusion, and nobody took over any resort.. (except maybe in Worldmark there are resorts there with only a few units)

 

[CO skier]

I always assume that the person Im talking to is telling me the truth, until I catch them lying.

You mean, as an example, like advertising as “Bargains” dozens of Wyndham contracts stripped of 2-3 years of future years’ usage for which the new owners would have to pay maintenance fees without the usage?

And “disclosure” is no excuse and does not change the fact that they were not bargains, especially as “bargains” were and are defined in the TUG Bargains Forum.

 

[CO skier]

And I for one never claimed I ran a business,

Thirteen minutes later, the story is completely different

I already had a rental business and I was smart enough not to read the contract

Will the real ronparise please stand-up and post with some consistency?

 

[CO skier]

There is no question that the Club Wyndham Vacation Club suffered from benign neglect under the previous CEO,

Benign neglect.???. The number of resorts grew, profits were up, Wyndham has always been a vacation club, operated for Wyndhams profit

You state the obvious, but it is irrelevant to my post.

I italicized “Club” in my post to emphasize my meaning, yet you still misunderstood or choose to misdirect the post to “corporate” Wyndham, instead of Club Wyndham.

The “Beneficiaries” of Club Wyndham are the “Members” of Club Wyndham. Any owner can look this up in the Club Wyndham Trust Agreement. In short, Club Wyndham exists for the benefit of all Members who purchase an interest in the vacation club.


Wyndham recognized as early as 2005 that “megarenters” were screwing other owners of the vacation Club. From the Spearman lawsuit:

“As early as 2005,Wyndham began to notice problems associated with allowing a group of large point owners, sometimes referred to as “Megarenters,” to run large rental businesses using Wyndham points.”



It took more than 10 years for Wyndham management to do something about it. To me, that is benign neglect. To Wyndham’s credit, eventually they did do something about it, and now there are more changes to take reservations out of megarenter control and put them into the hands of owners who paid to join Club Wyndham and for the privilege of taking their family on a great vacation.

 

[Mongoose]

You mean, as an example, like advertising as “Bargains” dozens of Wyndham contracts stripped of 2-3 years of future years’ usage for which the new owners would have to pay maintenance fees without the usage?

And “disclosure” is no excuse and does not change the fact that they were not bargains, especially as “bargains” were and are defined in the TUG Bargains Forum.

Still a newbie on this topic. You mean Wyndham allowed forward usage of 2-3 years of points without having to pay MF's in advance? That just seems like bad business practices. The brands I have require pre-pay to bring forward credits or the MF's to be paid before check-in depending on variables.

 

[Eric B]

Still a newbie on this topic. You mean Wyndham allowed forward usage of 2-3 years of points without having to pay MF's in advance? That just seems like bad business practices. The brands I have require pre-pay to bring forward credits or the MF's to be paid before check-in depending on variables.

They did before the update before the last major one; they also allowed (and sales encouraged) cancelling and rebooking units by VIP owners once they got to the discount window. Both seem like horribly bad and negligent business practices, although they might make some warped sense if there is an overabundance of developer-owned points that they don't have anything to do with other than essentially giving away to VIPs in an effort to incentivize sales. The net result of those business practices and others was the rise of the megarenters in the Wyndham system, IMHO. Honestly, though, I do get the feeling that they are bogeymen that folks discuss as being responsible for anything that doesn't go there way - if they can't book a high demand resort in a peak week, but see one rental of it offered, the megarenters must have somehow gained control of the entire resort for that week, it couldn't have been the fact that it's a high demand peak week that their fellow owners booked in addition to the one person that booked it and is offering it for rent.

 

[ronparise]

You state the obvious, but it is irrelevant to my post.

I italicized “Club” in my post to emphasize my meaning, yet you still misunderstood or choose to misdirect the post to “corporate” Wyndham, instead of Club Wyndham.

The “Beneficiaries” of Club Wyndham are the “Members” of Club Wyndham. Any owner can look this up in the Club Wyndham Trust Agreement. In short, Club Wyndham exists for the benefit of all Members who purchase an interest in the vacation club.


Wyndham recognized as early as 2005 that “megarenters” were screwing other owners of the vacation Club. From the Spearman lawsuit:

“As early as 2005,Wyndham began to notice problems associated with allowing a group of large point owners, sometimes referred to as “Megarenters,” to run large rental businesses using Wyndham points.”



It took more than 10 years for Wyndham management to do something about it. To me, that is benign neglect. To Wyndham’s credit, eventually they did do something about it, and now there are more changes to take reservations out of megarenter control and put them into the hands of owners who paid to join Club Wyndham and for the privilege of taking their family on a great vacation.

I I know the difference between Club Wyndham and the corporation And of course the Club was established for the benefit of the owners. (Id remind you that the megarenters are owners too) but the Club was created to give the developer buyers for their product. Wyndham manages the club, and they may do it in part to keep the owners happy , but I believe Wyndham the corporation manages the club primarily for the benefit of their stockholders

What you posted in bold print is something you posted before, You didnt have to yell, I read it before and I understand it. I also understand that you took that quote out of context, The complete quote goes onto say more. "As early as 2005,Wyndham began to notice problems associated with allowing a group of large point owners, sometimes referred to as "Megarenters," to run large rental businesses using Wyndham points. A Wyndham internal presentation from 2005 noted that the company supported owners running rental businesses at the time, but recommended limiting transactions and tightening rules because of the negative effects Megarenters were having on Wyndham’s business".

Read that last part again especially thr part I bolded and enlarged and put in red to ,ake my point. _A Wyndham internal presentation from 2005 noted that the company supported owners running rental businesses at the time, but recommended limiting transactions and tightening rules because of the negative effects Megarenters were having on Wyndham’s business".

My conclusion from reading the whole quote is that Wyndhan doesnt give a *bleep* about the owners and that that they dont take action until or unless they can get some benefit for their stockholders

 

[ronparise]

Still a newbie on this topic. You mean Wyndham allowed forward usage of 2-3 years of points without having to pay MF's in advance? That just seems like bad business practices. The brands I have require pre-pay to bring forward credits or the MF's to be paid before check-in depending on variables.

I been living in Florida for 25years and Ive learned that there is one thing that pisses of Floridians more than almost anything else, and thats when a snowbird says "that's not how we do it back home" If you want to do it like you do back home... you should have stayed home.


What you are saying about the credit pool shows a lack of understanding of just how the credit pool worked.. I get it, its a nuanced thingn that a newbie might not get. but the fact is that, the maintenance fees were paid. But there is no excuse for an experienced Wyndham owner to make the dame mistake.

 

[A.Win]

You mean, as an example, like advertising as “Bargains” dozens of Wyndham contracts stripped of 2-3 years of future years’ usage for which the new owners would have to pay maintenance fees without the usage?

And “disclosure” is no excuse and does not change the fact that they were not bargains, especially as “bargains” were and are defined in the TUG Bargains Forum.

I remember when Ron was selling his contracts. I asked about buying the ones with low MFs, but he already found other buyers. Ron simply bought low and sold high in a new and clever way. This is exactly what EVERY investor tries to do. I never understood why people objected to this. He spent a lot of time developing relationships with sellers and buyers. So he deserves the profits that result from this work.

 

[raygo123]

I remember when Ron was selling his contracts. I asked about buying the ones with low MFs, but he already found other buyers. Ron simply bought low and sold high in a new and clever way. This is exactly what EVERY investor tries to do. I never understood why people objected to this. He spent a lot of time developing relationships with sellers and buyers. So he deserves the profits that result from this work.

Does that hold true for the thief that works hard at it?

Sent from my Lenovo TB-X103F using Tapatalk

 

[ilya]

... It took more than 10 years for Wyndham management to do something about it. To me, that is benign neglect. To Wyndham’s credit, eventually they did do something about it, and now there are more changes to take reservations out of megarenter control and put them into the hands of owners who paid to join Club Wyndham and for the privilege of taking their family on a great vacation.

Why did it take Wyndham that long for them to fix the Megarenters? There a quite a few former Wyndham employees that are now point managers… is this why it was not fixed, maybe some of the employees had a dual interest in Wyndham… family members becoming mega renters ?

In my opinion Wyndham should have never let someone own 60 million points…they must of let this happen for a reason.. seems like someone had a personal interest with in Wyndham to let this continue and it must be a higher up person.. that’s just my theory ‍♀

 

[Mongoose]

I been living in Florida for 25years and Ive learned that there is one thing that pisses of Floridians more than almost anything else, and thats when a snowbird says "that's not how we do it back home" If you want to do it like you do back home... you should have stayed home.


What you are saying about the credit pool shows a lack of understanding of just how the credit pool worked.. I get it, its a nuanced thingn that a newbie might not get. but the fact is that, the maintenance fees were paid. But there is no excuse for an experienced Wyndham owner to make the dame mistake.

Better go back to bed, looks like you got up on the wrong side. Maybe you should take time to read the post. I know my systems and how they work. I was first to say I’m new to Wyndham.

 

[rickandcindy23]

The personal attacks on Ron and mega renters (of which I might be called one, but we own a small fraction of what Klebba's own), are going to keep me off of this forum from this point on. I will not post anymore. Wyndham doesn't hate us nearly as much you people do. I said we were getting out of the rental business and need to get rid of points that aren't platinum, and I will be doing that. You will see them for sale on TUG's Marketplace.

And I still believe that if inventory was THERE FOR US, it was THERE FOR YOU. So maybe tenaciousness is something that you don't understand.

So I am out. Ron, you are a great guy and I totally understand your frustration with the posts against "mega renters." I am right there with you. I even laugh out loud at your posts. Because you are so right! A mega renter cannot take over an entire resort for a week, there is no way they can do that, unless it's a week no one wants.

A lot of this is envy, and envy is ugly.

 

[A.Win]

I agree in premise, but personally my approach would be to maximize all my vip points in the discount window so I don’t feel the resale loss and use resale for times I know won’t get upgrade or be available in 60 day window.
For e.g. I’d blow all my resale (and some vip) on my honolulu 10 days in August that I need to drop a kid at college. It’s a higher demand time and a long reservation - upgrade unlikely and no way it would be available within 60 days. But you cn be sure that for the rest of my reservations I’m watching all the other resort availability closely and even considering changing resorts if I find something cheaper to save points in the 60 day window. [not so much this year, but in general]
Essentially given VIP perk loss to the resale points, I think VIP will be looking to maximize their benefits on the vip-eligible, which may in fact make discounts more competitive. Remains to be seen though.

I will be doing the same. I will use ARP to book MORE high demand resorts during peak seasons since my resale points no longer get VIP discounts and upgrades. So this change will result in LESS availability for other owners.

 

[Mongoose]

The personal attacks on Ron and mega renters (of which I might be called one, but we own a small fraction of what Klebba's own), are going to keep me off of this forum from this point on. I will not post anymore. Wyndham doesn't hate us nearly as much you people do. I said we were getting out of the rental business and need to get rid of points that aren't platinum, and I will be doing that. You will see them for sale on TUG's Marketplace.

And I still believe that if inventory was THERE FOR US, it was THERE FOR YOU. So maybe tenaciousness is something that you don't understand.

So I am out. Ron, you are a great guy and I totally understand your frustration with the posts against "mega renters." I am right there with you. I even laugh out loud at your posts. Because you are so right! A mega renter cannot take over an entire resort for a week, there is no way they can do that, unless it's a week no one wants.

A lot of this is envy, and envy is ugly.

Really? Find one time I "attacked" Ron or anyone. Read what he posted in response to my honest question. Ron is the one that could take a lesson in civility.

 

[paxsarah]

Find one time I "attacked" Ron or anyone.

Pretty sure this one wasn’t about you. Or at least, you’d be pretty far down the list.

 

[Richelle]

I already had a rental business and I was smart enough not to read the contract
Wyndham is still making gravy, and In confident that as long as there are reservations that cost under 1000 in mf, that can be rented for $2000...rentals are going to happen. Thats how I started and I bet that someone will do it again

I got a call recently from a Wyndham salesman trying to get me into a presentation.. That aint supposed to happen. Im supposed to be on a list. I may spend some time at a Wyndham resort and buy something. Ill rescind but before I do Ill dig into the new rules and see what I can see. .. An old guy with nothing but time ought to be able to find a way to make some money

"Smart enough not to read the contract"? What planet are you from, where it's smart not to read the contract you signed? Regardless, it was in the directory. Even if it wasn't in the directory when they bought it, it was in the directory later. It's not up to Wyndham to hold their hand and tell them they should keep up on the rules. They put out a new directory every year, and it's common sense to see if there were any changes. Show me a mega renter who says they didn't know that commercial use was against the rules, and I will show you an ignorant fool.

I never said rentals were not going to happen. They just won't happen to the extent they are now. I'm sure some will use the scheme of booking two reservations when they rent a reservation. One is in their name. The problem is, it's not as cheap as before to do that. So it's much more difficult to make a profit. I'm sure some can do it, but not as much as they used to. They have to decide if less profit is worth the extra trouble. Judging by the number of large contracts that recently hit the market, I would venture to say a lot of them have already decided it's not. Personally, I can think of a few ways to still make a profit, but it wouldn't be as good as it was before.

 

[jebloomquist]

I said we were getting out of the rental business and need to get rid of points that aren't platinum, and I will be doing that. You will see them for sale on TUG's Marketplace.

When you or someone else sells on TUG's Marketplace, who does the associated administrative paperwork?
Years ago I prurchased an Hawiian contract fron an owner who had no idea what it actually was and what was required to sell it. I volunteered to shepard the paperwork. It took many months, numerous phone calls to complete. I don't care to go through that again as the seller.

 

[chapjim]

Thirteen minutes later, the story is completely different



Will the real ronparise please stand-up and post with some consistency?

Ron had a real estate rental business apart from Wyndham. There is no inconsistency, only your misunderstanding.

 

[55plus]

we own a small fraction of what Klebba's own

A small fraction of 67 million points is still 10 million points, give or take.

 

[Richelle]

The personal attacks on Ron and mega renters (of which I might be called one, but we own a small fraction of what Klebba's own), are going to keep me off of this forum from this point on. I will not post anymore. Wyndham doesn't hate us nearly as much you people do. I said we were getting out of the rental business and need to get rid of points that aren't platinum, and I will be doing that. You will see them for sale on TUG's Marketplace.

And I still believe that if inventory was THERE FOR US, it was THERE FOR YOU. So maybe tenaciousness is something that you don't understand.

So I am out. Ron, you are a great guy and I totally understand your frustration with the posts against "mega renters." I am right there with you. I even laugh out loud at your posts. Because you are so right! A mega renter cannot take over an entire resort for a week, there is no way they can do that, unless it's a week no one wants.

A lot of this is envy, and envy is ugly.

I have rented a couple of times. The people were nice and didn't cause any issues. Still, the amount of work you would have to put into a business was a big turn-off for me. Not to mention some people are picky and entitled. I couldn't deal with that. I don't envy you, because I don't want what you have. I also do not hate mega renters. I think some of this is coming from the fact that many mega renters feel entitled to rent, and we are trying to explain that there is no entitlement, despite what the salesperson told you. Contracts and directories spell out that it's not for commercial use. It doesn't matter whether people have equal opportunity or not. It doesn't matter whether you can take over a resort or not. A mega renter is violating the commercial use clause. Period. Obviously, it's ok to disagree with that cause, but it's not ok to violate it. Mega renters can blame the salespeople all they want. It won't hold water, because any mega renter worth their salt knows salespeople lie. I do not hate mega renters. I just don't feel sorry for them.


As a side note, I kind of disagree with the equal opportunity argument. In the ARP window, someone who owns Bonnet Creek doesn't have an equal chance to book Clearwater as a Clearwater owner does. Someone who is VIP has a better shot at getting prime inventory than a non-VIP because they can book RARP. At 10 months, we are all equal. The exception being PR and Margaritaville have access to inventory regular owners do not. So mega renters who are VIPs have a better shot at getting prime inventory than non-VIP. Obviously, that goes for all VIPs, not just mega renters. However, considering most (or all) mega renters are VIPs, I can say the equal opportunity argument is not entirely true. Also, a lot of mega renters own contracts at desirable locations and have a better shot at grabbing those more desirable rooms because they can book 13 months out. With that said, this doesn't apply to mega renters who only rent reservations that are inside the discount window, or even in the standard window. They do not have any advantage over non-VIP. Obviously, I do not see them booking up most of the resort in that window, but I guess it's not impossible. Just unlikely. If I was a mega renter, I wouldn't put all my eggs in one basket, but maybe that's just me.

 

[55plus]

I will be doing the same. I will use ARP to book MORE high demand resorts during peak seasons since my resale points no longer get VIP discounts and upgrades. So this change will result in LESS availability for other owners.

Your one ARP reservation is not the same as 10 mega renters each making 10 reservations (100 total) for commerce at a prime location, let's say, over Christmas. Do the math and you'll see we, as personal use owner will be better in terms of availability without mega renters screwing over the rest of us.