The end of the line for Frequent Flyer Programs?

[x3 skier]

IMO, the days of FF miles being a great benefit are over. Just about every airline has finally recognized they likely can make more money selling seats than retaining customers with FF programs. Southwest, Delta, BA, you name it, changes have reduced the value of miles. You can still make them work but it is a real challenge.

It was great while it lasted and I enjoyed it immensely for years but the reality is the vast majority of the public wants cheap airfare more than anything else. Why else is Spirit so profitable with lousy customer relations and fees for everything?

To deliver that, FF programs are being rapidly being devalued since every "free" seat an airline gives away means less revenue. In the old days, high prices allowed them to make money (or at least lose less money) while giving away FF seats but since the profit per seat in now much less, they need to sell more seats and give away fewer.

I am using my miles as fast as I can before they become totally worthless.

I suggest you take what you can get before it is too late.

Cheers

 

[Passepartout]

I am using my miles as fast as I can before they become totally worthless.

I suggest you take what you can get before it is too late.

That is IF you can figure out how to get any benefit from them. We have (+-) 150,000 SkyPesos and whenever we look for flights or even upgrades there doesn't seem to be anything on a route we want.

 

[x3 skier]

That is IF you can figure out how to get any benefit from them. We have (+-) 150,000 SkyPesos and whenever we look for flights or even upgrades there doesn't seem to be anything on a route we want.

My best luck with both DL and AA lately has involved an extra day or two on either end of the trip. Most recently, I booked a 1st Class ticket ORD LHR ORD ticket on AA for 125K to use our week at the Allen House. I used Avios (+$5) to get to ORD from DAY but had to stay overnight in Chicago on the return since I had to go via MIA and got to ORD to late to make a connection.

Same sort of thing last year on DL where my 100K Business class DAY LHR AMS DAY ticket involved an overnight in AMS and a cheap flight LHR AMS.

It takes work but you can use them.

I also have avoided transferring my AMEX points to airlines like I used to since you can actually buy things with them. While they are usually not the best value, if you can't get what you want via FF Tix, at least you can get something.

Cheers

 

[SMHarman]

IMO, the days of FF miles being a great benefit are over. Just about every airline has finally recognized they likely can make more money selling seats than retaining customers with FF programs. Southwest, Delta, BA, you name it, changes have reduced the value of miles. You can still make them work but it is a real challenge.

It was great while it lasted and I enjoyed it immensely for years but the reality is the vast majority of the public wants cheap airfare more than anything else.

I am using my miles as fast as I can before they become totally worthless.

I suggest you take what you can get before it is too late.

Cheers

Not really, the airlines will never kill them off, they make too much money selling miles to credit card companies and the like.

Many still think 25,000 miles for a $300 seat is great value and will rave about it. Only those that have been getting 4c/mile out of the programs will start to complain.

True Frequent Fliers will be kept sweet with bonus deals that maintain the value of the currency. Look at the BA deal at the moment TATL gets a 20k bonus each time and after 5x you get another 100k bonus.

 

[BocaBum99]

IMO, the days of FF miles being a great benefit are over. Just about every airline has finally recognized they likely can make more money selling seats than retaining customers with FF programs. Southwest, Delta, BA, you name it, changes have reduced the value of miles. You can still make them work but it is a real challenge.

It was great while it lasted and I enjoyed it immensely for years but the reality is the vast majority of the public wants cheap airfare more than anything else. Why else is Spirit so profitable with lousy customer relations and fees for everything?

To deliver that, FF programs are being rapidly being devalued since every "free" seat an airline gives away means less revenue. In the old days, high prices allowed them to make money (or at least lose less money) while giving away FF seats but since the profit per seat in now much less, they need to sell more seats and give away fewer.

I am using my miles as fast as I can before they become totally worthless.

I suggest you take what you can get before it is too late.

Cheers

I don't think so. I took about 5-7 years off from even thinking about or using my FF miles even with about 500,000 points in my account and just started getting into it again this past year when I became a 1M miler on United.

I like the other features of Premier Gold more than I like free travel. I really like the free first class upgrades I am getting about 30% of the time. More importantly, I love not having to pay baggage fees and being able to get an economy plus seat at time of booking.

Since I get a 50% bonus miles, the above features provide me with an additional incentive to fly United. The above features are worth me paying $100-200 more per ticket than on a cheap airline. I also am deciding to keep my United/Chase Explorer card since I will probably put about $50-75k on it per year.

Here is what I used points for in the last 6 months:

4 roundtrip tickets to Barcelona with a stopover in London for this summer. All saver fares. 60000 points each for 240,000 points total.

2 round trip tickets for my son to come home for his summer internship and next Christmas vacation. All legs saver except the Dec 21 leg which was at standard fare. 100,000 points. Since these ressies were booked on my account, I was able to book him into economy plus.

1 round trip first class trip to Florida on saver fare. 80000 points.

Lastly, as a Premier Gold. If there is a seat available on the plane, I can book it for a standard award fare. Also, there is greater availability for saver fares for Gold members. When I first checked availability for my son's trip, his preferred travel dates were not available. Then, I logged into my account and voila, his dates were available.

I am once again a huge fan of the United Mileage Plus program. The rumors of its demise are greatly exaggerated.

 

[T_R_Oglodyte]

IMO, the days of FF miles being a great benefit are over. Just about every airline has finally recognized they likely can make more money selling seats than retaining customers with FF programs. Southwest, Delta, BA, you name it, changes have reduced the value of miles. You can still make them work but it is a real challenge.

It was great while it lasted and I enjoyed it immensely for years but the reality is the vast majority of the public wants cheap airfare more than anything else. Why else is Spirit so profitable with lousy customer relations and fees for everything?

To deliver that, FF programs are being rapidly being devalued since every "free" seat an airline gives away means less revenue. In the old days, high prices allowed them to make money (or at least lose less money) while giving away FF seats but since the profit per seat in now much less, they need to sell more seats and give away fewer.

I am using my miles as fast as I can before they become totally worthless.

I suggest you take what you can get before it is too late.

Cheers

Your analysis is far too simplistic.

Airlines can afford to "give away" free seats in exchange for being able to sell other seats at higher than base fare and being able to sell seats that would otherwise be empty. IOW - they intend and design the programs to appeal to frequent travelers, especially business travelers. They also want those travelers to book preferentially on their airline even when they might not have the lowest fares to the destinations.

I think that what you are seeing - and reacting to - is a devaluation of miles generated by casual fliers who don't travel much, who don't have significant loyalty to an airline, and who rack up miles via non-flying options.

Airlines will continue to maintain value in the programs for people who generate their miles via actual flights on the airline, and via purchasing higher fare tickets.

 

[buzglyd]

I don't think so. I took about 5-7 years off from even thinking about or using my FF miles even with about 500,000 points in my account and just started getting into it again this past year when I became a 1M miler on United.

I like the other features of Premier Gold more than I like free travel. I really like the free first class upgrades I am getting about 30% of the time. More importantly, I love not having to pay baggage fees and being able to get an economy plus seat at time of booking.

Since I get a 50% bonus miles, the above features provide me with an additional incentive to fly United. The above features are worth me paying $100-200 more per ticket than on a cheap airline. I also am deciding to keep my United/Chase Explorer card since I will probably put about $50-75k on it per year.

Here is what I used points for in the last 6 months:

4 roundtrip tickets to Barcelona with a stopover in London for this summer. All saver fares. 60000 points each for 240,000 points total.

2 round trip tickets for my son to come home for his summer internship and next Christmas vacation. All legs saver except the Dec 21 leg which was at standard fare. 100,000 points. Since these ressies were booked on my account, I was able to book him into economy plus.

1 round trip first class trip to Florida on saver fare. 80000 points.

Lastly, as a Premier Gold. If there is a seat available on the plane, I can book it for a standard award fare. Also, there is greater availability for saver fares for Gold members. When I first checked availability for my son's trip, his preferred travel dates were not available. Then, I logged into my account and voila, his dates were available.

I am once again a huge fan of the United Mileage Plus program. The rumors of its demise are greatly exaggerated.

Good to hear. My lifetime miles on United are at 730,000. I still have a ways to go.

I still have the "good" credit card from the Continental days. Earn Elite miles and United club perks.

I still miss Continetal though. I was upgraded about 90% of the time. Now about 30% as you say.

Plus, the first class to Europe sales were awesome back then. Round trip in Business First for about $2200 and double Elite qualifying miles.

 

[BocaBum99]

Good to hear. My lifetime miles on United are at 730,000. I still have a ways to go.

I still have the "good" credit card from the Continental days. Earn Elite miles and United club perks.

I still miss Continetal though. I was upgraded about 90% of the time. Now about 30% as you say.

Plus, the first class to Europe sales were awesome back then. Round trip in Business First for about $2200 and double Elite qualifying miles.

In the late 90s and early 00s, I used to travel between 75000 and 100,000 miles per year. I was racking up miles, but I travelled so much that the last thing I wanted to do was get onto another plane. So, I was giving away a lot of free tickets to friends. Now that I have to pay for my own tickets, I wish I kept those miles I gave away. If it weren't for the million miler status, I probably would still be ignoring frequent flyer programs.

 

[x3 skier]

Airlines will continue to maintain value in the programs for people who generate their miles via actual flights on the airline, and via purchasing higher fare tickets.

I am one of those types and I do value the other perks besides free seats. Things like the free bags, although I seldom check any, priority boarding to snag overhead storage, the all too infrequent upgrade to first are still a good thing.

That said, with load factors in the 85% range and raising of miles required, snagging a free seat sure isn't as easy as it used to be. The devaluation in FF programs I see is in redeeming miles for free trips. Between lower availability, higher miles required and more competition from those who get miles from credit card use etc., I really think the good old days of easily being able to go when and where I want are gone.

The other perks keep me flying AA and DL but free Tix ain't what they used to be.

Cheers

 

[Ken555]

It was great while it lasted and I enjoyed it immensely for years but the reality is the vast majority of the public wants cheap airfare more than anything else. Why else is Spirit so profitable with lousy customer relations and fees for everything?

It's a big market. Spirit definitely has a following, but they do not define the market. As others have already said, the Economy Plus type seats are proving successful for the airlines - perhaps because they have already reduced service / space for economy to the point where some will pay more, but not enough for business / first, and so they offer this premium economy option.

Frequent flyer programs are definitely a game worth playing if you have the time and energy to spend on it, and the desire for almost, but not quite, free travel. Lately it's been the little things that have irritated me with redeeming miles - for instance, US Air charges $50 to reserve an award, even online, yet BA and others do not. So after already "buying" the miles we have to spend more money to actually use them. Of course, in the big picture it doesn't matter to me, but it's irritating nonetheless.

 

[BocaBum99]

I am one of those types and I do value the other perks besides free seats. Things like the free bags, although I seldom check any, priority boarding to snag overhead storage, the all too infrequent upgrade to first are still a good thing.

That said, with load factors in the 85% range and raising of miles required, snagging a free seat sure isn't as easy as it used to be. The devaluation in FF programs I see is in redeeming miles for free trips. Between lower availability, higher miles required and more competition from those who get miles from credit card use etc., I really think the good old days of easily being able to go when and where I want are gone.

The other perks keep me flying AA and DL but free Tix ain't what they used to be.

Cheers

This post is different than your original post. You pretty much declared that you were going to use up all of your frequent flier miles because they were going to become quickly worthless signalling the end of FF programs.

That is much different than, FF programs are still useful, but they aren't what they used to be.

 

[buzglyd]

In the late 90s and early 00s, I used to travel between 75000 and 100,000 miles per year. I was racking up miles, but I travelled so much that the last thing I wanted to do was get onto another plane. So, I was giving away a lot of free tickets to friends. Now that I have to pay for my own tickets, I wish I kept those miles I gave away. If it weren't for the million miler status, I probably would still be ignoring frequent flyer programs.

Ditto!

My rear has earned the status.

 

[akp]

I'm loving it

I'm late to the party with frequent flyer miles, but as far as I'm concerned, it is a great party!

In the past 2 years, I have:

- flown my family of five RT to Hawaii
- flown my family of five RT to Costa Rica
- flown my family of five RT to Aruba

Scheduled but not yet flown:

- my husband and I are flying in Singapore Air first class to Russia next month
- my family of five is flying to Peru in June (also free tix inter-Peru)

Working on:

- RT tickets in business or first for me and my husband to Maui in Feb 14
- Rt tix for all five of us to Europe Summer 2014

Aside from the first redemption for five to Hawaii, none of these were butt-in-seat miles. There are TONS of opportunities to earn miles.

I will never have elite status with any airline (except for my trick-based Star Alliance Gold status) because I never pay for tickets unless it is the cheap domestic routes where it makes no sense to redeem miles.

I missed the mint (wouldn't have done it anyway) and pudding stuff, but there are lots and lots of opportunities still. Some examples:

- Delta miles via paying taxes on Suntrust Debit card
- AA miles via BankDirect account. (if you're interested, pm me for a referral and we both get extra miles.) You forgo the less than 1% interest currently being offered but depending on your tax bracket it can be well worth it.
- Credit card signup bonuses are huge
- I rarely purchase anything that isn't bonused at 2 miles per dollar or greater.
- If you really want to get crazy into miles production, look into Bluebird / Vanilla Reload. You can pay college tuition, taxes, mortgage, etc.

I'm sure if I'd lived through the glory days, I'd be bummed, too. But I've got plenty of free travel on the table for now!

Anita

 

[x3 skier]

This post is different than your original post. You pretty much declared that you were going to use up all of your frequent flier miles because they were going to become quickly worthless signalling the end of FF programs.

That is much different than, FF programs are still useful, but they aren't what they used to be.

Sorry from the confusion. My point was meant to be that reasonable options for redemption for free tickets is approaching an impossible task. The rest of FF programs are still worth it for those like me who value the other aspects. A RT Business Class Ticket to Europe for 325000 miles is a lot different than one for 100000 miles which is why I use them up as fast as I can like many on FlyerTalk. I can still get some reasonable redemptions but in the good old days, it was a no brainer compared the contortions I go thru now.

Cheers

 

[MuranoJo]

In the late 90s and early 00s, I used to travel between 75000 and 100,000 miles per year. I was racking up miles, but I travelled so much that the last thing I wanted to do was get onto another plane. So, I was giving away a lot of free tickets to friends. Now that I have to pay for my own tickets, I wish I kept those miles I gave away. If it weren't for the million miler status, I probably would still be ignoring frequent flyer programs.

Ditto again.

I gave away numerous trips to HI for friends, as well as mainland and some first class gifts thrown in as well. I just didn't have the time to use all the miles for fun when I was working, plus I was burned out on flying.

Now that I've retired, it sure would be nice to still have them. (And at times I wondered if the recipients really understood the 'cost' of those free tickets.)

 

[Carolinian]

Not really, the airlines will never kill them off, they make too much money selling miles to credit card companies and the like.

Many still think 25,000 miles for a $300 seat is great value and will rave about it. Only those that have been getting 4c/mile out of the programs will start to complain.

True Frequent Fliers will be kept sweet with bonus deals that maintain the value of the currency. Look at the BA deal at the moment TATL gets a 20k bonus each time and after 5x you get another 100k bonus.

You have hit the nail on the head. Airlines make major bucks selling the miles to banks and others. If they make the programs useless for passengers, then they will kill the golden goose with the banks.

Actually, I kind of like a program that Wizz Air has to encourage loyalty. You have to pay to join it, but then you get a discount on every seat you buy. The tickets I bought when I signed up paid the cost to join on the savings, and then the rest of the year, I saved with every ticket. The Wizz Air credit cards, availible through Hungarian and Romanian banks, also give a discount on ticket fees. This is an interesting model for an LCC ff plan.

 

[Carolinian]

Good to hear. My lifetime miles on United are at 730,000. I still have a ways to go.

I still have the "good" credit card from the Continental days. Earn Elite miles and United club perks.

I still miss Continetal though. I was upgraded about 90% of the time. Now about 30% as you say.

Plus, the first class to Europe sales were awesome back then. Round trip in Business First for about $2200 and double Elite qualifying miles.

I am getting a great upgrade percentage with AA, and the award seats I have looked for, I have found with them. Still, NW was the best, and I really miss them. Their DC9's and Avros had the highest percentage of 1st class seats of anything flying in the US, so except on the hub to hub routes, it meant almost a guarantee of an upgrade.

The one I miss most is BMI. Every award seat I asked for I got, including on their Star partners. I earned 3K miles for hotel stays. And many intra-Europe routes were 9K R/T with the others being 12K R/T. TATL was 45K R/T. This was right up to the BA takeover last year.

 

[Smokatoke]

While I love all the perks of FF and hotels as well, it shows how spoiled of a world we are that we will complain about not getting overly pampered with free stuff just because we chose to travel with a specific brand. How many other places do you expect freebies when you make a purchase? Did you not get the service you wanted when originally paid? So why are you expecting more?

I am just playing devils advocate here (no flaming intended) as I too have been a complainer about how devalued points are now, but in the end I realize I was provided a service and I shouldnt expect free stuff just because I gave them my business. How many small business owners would be broke giving away free stuff to every customer? Because airlines are huge and make more money means they should be obligated to give free stuff?

And cant make the argument well I will go to another airline if i dont get enough free stuff, because ultimately if no one gave anything free you would be selective based on pricing and service which you do now already! This is just a semi-rant for me because I have seen far too many ungrateful people complain about what they dont get for free or not getting enough for free, but if it was you having to do the free giving and it was costing your company millions a year, you would probably rethink it too.

 

[x3 skier]

Plus, the first class to Europe sales were awesome back then. Round trip in Business First for about $2200 and double Elite qualifying miles.

For the past few years I have been taking a Thanksgiving weekend trip to Europe. Leave Friday and return Wed or Thur. Prices are around $2200 in Business Class. One of the nice things to do is visit the Christmas Markets. Been to ones in Vienna, Berlin and others. Helps me maintain my status.

Cheers

 

[Carolinian]

Loyalty often means taking more for a ticket to fly the airline to which you have loyalty or accepting a less convenient schedule. If the loyalty program was not there to give us that incentive, then we would probably not be buying some of the tickets we buy from that airline, but using a competitor instead. If the ff programs were not attractive, then the banks and others would not be buying the miles they buy now. Airlines created ff programs to benefit airlines and as they now exist, they do. If the bean counters monkey around with them, they may find out down the road that it is a losing proposition, as DL did with the Rob Borden changes, which it later had to reverse (and appropriately, fire Borden) after it took a big kick in the pants financially from those changes.

While I love all the perks of FF and hotels as well, it shows how spoiled of a world we are that we will complain about not getting overly pampered with free stuff just because we chose to travel with a specific brand. How many other places do you expect freebies when you make a purchase? Did you not get the service you wanted when originally paid? So why are you expecting more?

I am just playing devils advocate here (no flaming intended) as I too have been a complainer about how devalued points are now, but in the end I realize I was provided a service and I shouldnt expect free stuff just because I gave them my business. How many small business owners would be broke giving away free stuff to every customer? Because airlines are huge and make more money means they should be obligated to give free stuff?

And cant make the argument well I will go to another airline if i dont get enough free stuff, because ultimately if no one gave anything free you would be selective based on pricing and service which you do now already! This is just a semi-rant for me because I have seen far too many ungrateful people complain about what they dont get for free or not getting enough for free, but if it was you having to do the free giving and it was costing your company millions a year, you would probably rethink it too.

 

[Smokatoke]

If the loyalty program was not there to give us that incentive, then we would probably not be buying some of the tickets we buy from that airline, but using a competitor instead.

Part of my point was you usually always shop for the best price regardless of your status with an airline. I would always pay 300 instead of 500 even if I was triple platinum smiley face with the more expensive. Also as I mentioned if none of the airlines had rewards, you would be price based shopping and customer service like you do anyway, so I dont think its a good argument.

And yes credit cards team up with airlines because they want you to rack up debt with them, so they pitch you on a pile of points which really only equates to one free round trip ticket. Yes there are some perks in the end but my overall point is be happy with the free we get. Not sure how we complain about free when we are still getting a service that we originally paid for...

 

[BocaBum99]

Part of my point was you usually always shop for the best price regardless of your status with an airline. I would always pay 300 instead of 500 even if I was triple platinum smiley face with the more expensive. Also as I mentioned if none of the airlines had rewards, you would be price based shopping and customer service like you do anyway, so I dont think its a good argument.

And yes credit cards team up with airlines because they want you to rack up debt with them, so they pitch you on a pile of points which really only equates to one free round trip ticket. Yes there are some perks in the end but my overall point is be happy with the free we get. Not sure how we complain about free when we are still getting a service that we originally paid for...

I shop for price, but I also assign value to the United Perks. If a United flight is $1000 and a Hawaiian Airlines flight is $800, I will fly United.

If the United flight is $1400 and the Hawaiian flight is $800, I will fly Hawaiian.

 

[Sandy VDH]

Having earned 2.25 Million miles lifetime on AA and now have earned about 750 Thousand on UA (just moved to Houston about 2 years ago). I am lifetime Platinum on AA and now 1K on UA.

My earning is primarily by flying (biz class seats to UK for work, domestic flights paid by me in North America, but also my CC bonus and spend.

I use them when it makes sense. Not for every flight. But I look at what the price is for cash vs points to book.

I usually use my points to fly to Caribbean (coach) or farther a field (Tahaiti, Maldives, Europe) in Biz class.

I have 125K AA left and I have 500K UA left.

I hope they do not go away. In the last 12 months I have booked 4 Reward tickets: Canada/Caribbean SXM (coach class as one ticket over Xmas and NYE), Tahaiti (Biz class), Canada/Belize (coach, 1 ticket over xmas/NYE again), Maldives (Biz class).

I paid for a bunch of flights in between because they were not the best use to use points, so instead I earned points on them. (CUN, BZN, LAS, STT, LGA)

 

[Carolinian]

At that differenial, one would probably just go with the cheaper one, but at lesser differentials, many go with their airline of choice. That is especially true if they have elite status, where the extra miles earned (double as an AA plat for me, for example), the upgrade possibilities, and other elite perks make the extra worthwhile. When I was a DL elite, the travel agency I used (yes, that was in the old days) regularly found NW flights $20-50 cheaper on a $500+ TATL fare than DL, but I still flew DL for the elite perks. Many do that. If you need the extra miles to requalify as elite, then even the fare differential you mention is well worth it.

I am now with AA and One World, so I put up with the aggravation of Heathrow, something I would not do otherwise. Actually, Heathrow is not all that bad when you have Plat status and are sitting in the BA lounge free for that reason!

Non elites will abandon an ff program much more readily than elites, and that is why it is beneficial to the airline to keep the elites loyal.

Part of my point was you usually always shop for the best price regardless of your status with an airline. I would always pay 300 instead of 500 even if I was triple platinum smiley face with the more expensive. Also as I mentioned if none of the airlines had rewards, you would be price based shopping and customer service like you do anyway, so I dont think its a good argument.

And yes credit cards team up with airlines because they want you to rack up debt with them, so they pitch you on a pile of points which really only equates to one free round trip ticket. Yes there are some perks in the end but my overall point is be happy with the free we get. Not sure how we complain about free when we are still getting a service that we originally paid for...

 

[Carolinian]

ff programs have already been degraded to the point that many suggest cash back credit cards instead of ones that earn miles. If they go much further downhill that will snowball on them.

Here is a recommendation today of moving away from hotel points due to the recent devaluations there:

http://www.frugaltravelguy.com/2013/03/priceline-back-to-the-good-old-days.html

The question from the hotels standpoint is - Don't they come out better with people paying higher prices and getting points than they do with people shopping for cheaper prices and forgetting about the points?