StarPoint Usage in Europe

[DavidnRobin]

I know there are other forum to get this info, but thought I would ask my Starwood Friends first.

Before the SPs are changed - I booked our Late Aug/Early Sept 2009 trip to Europe using those SPs we have been gathering.

5 nites (5th night free) for:
London - Sheraton Park (6* - 80K SPs)
Amersterdam - Hotel Pulitzer (5* - 52K SPs)
Paris - Westin Paris (6* - 80K SPs)

What is the best value in getting between these cities (same day)?

In flying home - we have 2 choices - fly back from Paris, or get to London to fly back (stay overnite at Sheraton Heathrow or in London). Any advice here? It seems like flying to London, and then back from Paris is very expensive in my flight searches (vs. a SFO-LHR RT). Am I missing something here?

Also - it also seems as flight prices are lower closer to the travel date nowadays - what is the optimal time to buy flight prior to traveling to Europe in late Aug/early Sept?

Anything else?

 

[jerseygirl]

I've used this airline several times to get from one location to another and wouldn't hesitate to use them again. Cheap tickets ... watch for baggage charges though:

http://www.easyjet.com/en/book/index.asp

I've also used www.ryanair.com but I don't think they fly to Amsterdam (maybe somewhere close).

Another fun option we did once was to take the Chunnel Train from London to Brussels, then on to Amsterdam via Bruges. Doesn't save time or money to go via train, but it's relaxing ... and both places (Brussels and Bruges) are definitely worth seeing if you can squeeze in an extra couple of days.

 

[califgal]

David, I know you didn't ask about sight seeing in London, but thought I'd offer this...In August the Queen goes to Scotland so Buckingham Palace is open for tours ,we really ejoyed it. If you go, buy your tickets ahead of time. We waited in line for at least an hour to purchase tickets.

The Park Tower is close enough to walk to Harrods and the other dept. stores, Natural History museum and Victoia and Albert museum.

 

[DeniseM]

I absolutely loved Buckingham Palace, too! When I go in April, I am going to do several of these walking tours - very, very reasonable - http://www.walks.com/

 

[DavidnRobin]

Wow - that easyjet is way cheaper than taking the train from London to AMS - seems like the way to go - now to figure out which airport is best. I have flown into Gatwick years ago. Never heard of Stansted or Luton.

Thanks for the tourist info, but first to figure out the travel. Flights seem expensive now - especially with the deals going on right now.

 

[sml2181]

Since you will travel at the end of the summer, I think I would wait with booking your flights. There are SO many options...
I would do the Farecast, Farecompare and Kayak searches and have them email me either daily or when flights get cheaper. I would search from your departure airport to London all airports and maybe even include other UK airports from which you could use Easyjet, to Ams or Paris and maybe I would even include Brussels to the search but you may find that a bit too complicated. My friend's brother came from SFO to AMS right before New Year and he paid 460$ rt. He booked it 4 weeks prior. He visits his sister every year during Christmas/New Year (always arrives at AMS) and this was the lowest fare he paid in years. If you are leaving at the end of August, high season will be over.

Easyjet will come with discounted prices too - just sign up for their offers. (otoh - since you are only with 2 it may not be worth it, discounts are usually 10%-25% off, plus taxes.) If you want to use Starwood hotels at the airport - I am not sure if there is one at 1 of the other London airports. You would have to keep in mind the transfers between the airport hotel and the actual airport you will be using.
Ryanair only allows for 15kg checked luggague.
AMS-PARIS could also be done using the Thalys.

 

[clsmit]

I also understand that the UK has large taxes for flying in and out of there. So flying to somewhere else and taking one of the cheap airlines might work better overall.

We LOVED London when we were there for New Year's! Were there a week and didn't see half of what we could have. Guess we have to go back! :whoopie:

 

[DavidnRobin]

We will be staying in London first (Sheraton Park, 5th nite free) - so SFO-Heathrow, and then it looks like EasyJet from London Luten to AMS (Hotel Pultizer, 5th nite free), and then AMS to Paris (Westin Paris, 5th nite free)via train, and then Paris to London via the Chunnel Express for an O/N stay in London-Heathrow.

Using 212K SPs - for 15 hotel nites I put at ~$250/nite (for us... not rate) - so about 1.8 cents/SP. I know the rates are much, much higher, but I do not like the fuzzy math that TS salepeople use since - for example Westin Paris internet rate for the Std King is about $660/nite - we would never spend that - we would spend $250/n and stay somewhere else.

 

[Henry M.]

What airline are you flying? I've done a few trips Dallas-Frankfurt then Paris-Dallas and the open-jaw trip has cost the same and sometimes even less than just DFW-FRA-DFW on American Airlines. I know you had a previous problem with AA, but I've flown 2.5 million miles in their jets, mostly intrnational, and I have had relatively good luck all around). Mostly I've first set up a RT ticket and then called the airline to change the return city. I find agents sometimes help in getting better fares than just trusting the internet booking engine.

On the value you get for Starpoints, there's a lot of discussion about it on FlyerTalk. There are different philosophies on how to look at it. Some would say that while you can find a 250 Euro hotel, it won't be the Westin Paris or have its location and amenities. The points should be valued at 4.1 cents/point, at the full $660/nt for 5 nights, since that is the best actual rate you can find.

Just because you don't buy a BMW 7 Series doesn't mean the car isn't worth $80,000+ if you won it somewhere. Even the IRS would value it at that much for tax purposes. You might not have used your own money to buy it, but the intrinsic value is still the same. Of course, that doesn't mean your approach of looking at what the room is saving you compared to paying for a for a stay somewhere in Paris is wrong. Just a different perspective.

I use your approach to determine what I would pay per point and thus I wouldn't pay much more than about 1 cent per point if I were buying them in bulk (there has to be profit when I use them). However, I think the value when I use them is closer to what the actual hotel rate is. That value is what I use to determine whether I pay for a hotel out of pocket or use points. If its not more than 2 cents per point then I save the points for another time. I would like to stay at the Westin Paris if I had the money, and the points allow me to splurge as if I did. It really is as if I pulled that may dollars out of my pocket. Just because there's some other cheaper place around doesn't mean the Westin room should cost the same. In this case Starpoints would be buying me the comfort comfort and experience that $660/nt buy. I do use the best rate available to me, not the rack rate like TS salesmen like to do.

I've found that Cash & Points is often the best value. However I don't think it is available for a category 6 hotel.

 

[DavidnRobin]

Thanks.

I will fly AA if it offers the best deal - but if 2 are relatively equal - I will choose the other. I am okay with paying for a direct SF-Heathrow flight and just trying to get the best price.

I have read the $/SP arguments - and both sides make good points, but I do not fall into the catagory that I think of as TS salesman 'fuzzy math' logic. e.g. at our last Owners Update at WKORV - the TS salesman tried to convince me that the SPs I was getting for buying an EOY WPORV is worth ~$28K by convoluting the SPs incentives and SO-SP conversion into two 1st class tickets from SFO to Rome with a 5 nite stay at a 6* SPG Hotel. I would never spend that (and either would most sane people), or agree with that 'logic'. And I got the extra benefit of him actually yelling at me when I described alternate math in buying resale... lol

I would not spend on average more than ~$250/nite (not 250 euros) since I know I can get relatively good accommendations for that price - but of course not at 6* SPG hotels. Otherwise I would not go. However, I do get to stay at these hotels for what the SPs cost me - and I put that value of ~2.2 cents/SP for me (and only me) and that estimate is based on my approximate losses in buying our EOY WPORV from SVO. This is math that only applies to me. So... the extra difference of ~0.4 cents/SP (2.2-1.8) is the premium I pay to stay at these hotels. So... it is all good.

However, I do get a warmer fuzzier feeling knowing that even at the best rate at these hotels I am getting way over 4 cents/SP.

Not intended to derail this thread into a $/SP discussion - although I find it an interesting topic.

It is now the transportation/logistics between SFO-London-AMS-Paris-London-SFO that I am trying to workout that balances cost and ease. It is weird that getting out of London (to AMS) seems to be cheaper by flying that taking the train.

I looked at C&P, but it isn't being offered - besides while a better value - it is time to burn through some of these SPs that we have accumulated (we still have 150K SPs left) - especially since the next SP hike is coming. And when we get back in Oct09 - we will have very little vacation time left since we are taking 2 weeks in June at WSJ also.

 

[sml2181]

Have you checked Paris-London on Easyjet? I think they fly to Luton from Paris so you would have to do a transfer to Heathrow.
BA will cost 85 Euro or so - per person but they do fly to Heathrow directly of course. You could also have a look at www.wegolo.com if you haven't done that already, to get an idea.

 

[Denise P]

Hi guys,

I thought you might like the English perspective on this! I have never flown with Easy Jet but I have a booking with them for June to go to Portugal. They have a lousy luggage allowance of 20kgs and pretty high costs for extra luggage. My main reason for being nervous is that there is a TV program based on Easy Jet operations and every episode concentrates mainly on complaints and frequent delays. They don't have many alternatives if you do miss a flight and people end up hundreds of pounds out of pocket when they make alternative arrangements. Anyway, I know plenty of people who use them regularly and whilst they have experienced delays, they are happy with the price.
I have flow Air France to Paris and they were pretty good.
Stanstead is a bit of an effort to get to and is way out in Essex but Luton is not too bad by train. Both ways you are looking at quite high rail fares.
I would definitely prefer to stick with Heathrow in your shoes and the scheduled airlines over the Easy Jets and Ryanairs of this World.

 

[Henry M.]

I agree with with you on the math regarding what to value the Starpoints you get from Starwood. They certainly are not worth as much as the TS salespersons say. You can probably use them at 2.x cents/point without too much hassle so that about as much credit as I'd give them for the points. Any extra value I can get out them is gravy, but not something I'll let them convince me is real value to offset the price of a developer purchase. I probably pay about 2 cents per point using my Starwood Amex compared to just getting 2% cash back with some other credit card. I'm OK with that since I stay at Starwood properties a lot and I like them.

Regarding airfare, somehow the airline phone agents seem to occasionally have access to fares that are not posted online, especially if you have a fare already and they try to match it when you make a change. It doesn't work all the time, but it happens to me often enough that I always call them in a situation like yours. I also always check the fare before paying for it (say if I wait to finalize my ticket) because even overnight the rates sometimes fall.

For the real hardcore bargain hunters I guess they could let expertflyer.com notify them when a particular fare class opens up, but that's more than I want to deal with regardless of how often I fly.

 

[bizaro86]

I looked at C&P, but it isn't being offered

Sometimes cash and points is available through the call center, even when its not available on the internet. It might be worth a try, even if you do have lots of extra starpoints

Michael

 

[DavidnRobin]

btw - someone on FlyerTalk posted a spreadsheet that calculates the cents per SP for all SPG Hotels {quite an effort} base on the best SGP rate available (and even calculates cents per SP for C&Ps) - it certainly has flaws, but very interesting. Using data filters (in Excel) you can sift through the SPG Hotels very easily.

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/star...-s-properties-excel-spreadsheet-included.html

 

[DavidnRobin]

Sometimes cash and points is available through the call center, even when its not available on the internet. It might be worth a try, even if you do have lots of extra starpoints

Michael

Thanks - I didn't know that the call center could have payment options different than on-line.

In the spreadsheet mentioned above - you can see from a cents/SP perspective the very good value in C&Ps - but my issue (for example with the Sheraton Park Tower in London) that the C&Ps is a much better value, but it involves spending $150 per nite (and 8K/nite in SPs) - and while saving SPs (40K SPs for 5 nites - taking into account the 5th nite free) - it still involves me laying out $750 in cash. But it is worth considering.

 

[Henry M.]

I just reserved a couple of nights at WKORV-N with points through the Platinum SPG line. Online it said the resort has limited participation and was only offering fully paid rooms. It was actually cheaper point-wise to stay in a studio here than at the Sheraton just down the road.

As for paying for C&P, if you use points a lot, they will last longer and in the end you will have been ahead. However that only works if you burn them relatively fast, even with C&P, and you have future stays planned. If you don't travel much you are probably better off burning all the points before they get devalued too much. The spreadsheet doesn't take into account the perishable nature of the points if you hold them too long.

 

[DavidnRobin]

You are correct - the spreadsheet caveats state that this for a single point in time (Jan) for a reservation for June 1, 2009.

How fast you burn through SPs is a major consideration for SP usage - and why I prefer to just use them since when we get back form our extended vacation - we will have very little vacation time left.

I did modify the spreadsheet to calculate the cents/SP for the 5th nite free scenerio. I think there may be a mistake in the spreadsheet for the conversion form foreign curency to USD for the C&Ps cents/SP (but maybe not).
I do like the ability to look at all the SPG resorts, and filter them.

 

[DavidnRobin]

When booking with Cash&Points - are there taxes charged for the cash portion - or does it work like SPs (not taxes/charges)?

I see the spreadsheet does not include taxes as part of the 'best rate' - in the UK there is a 15% VAT that is not included in the 'best rate' cost (this is significant).

 

[jerseygirl]

I'm pretty sure I was charged tax on the cash portion the last time I used C&P at a W in New Orleans.

In my experience, there's usually not an add-on tax at European hotels (I'm sure they have some sort of tax, but it must be built in).

For example, I'm staying at Marriott Grand Flora in Rome in October (used a 7-day certificate before the rules changed), but need an extra night. Here's what it says under "rate rules:"

Holding Your Reservation
We will need a credit card number to reserve your room.
Canceling Your Reservation
You may cancel your reservation for no charge until October 9, 2009 (1 day before arrival).
Please note that we will assess a fee of 419.00 EUR if you must cancel after this deadline. If you have made a prepayment, we will retain all or part of your prepayment. If not, we will charge your credit card.
This fee equals 1 night of your room charge plus tax (for the first night of your reservation).
Modifying Your Reservation
Please note that a change in the length or dates of your reservation may result in a rate change.

 

[DavidnRobin]

There is a 15%VAT on staying in London Hotels that is stated when reserving the room via the SPG site.

Generally when staying on SPs that are no taxes, but they may be fees (e.g. Westin Napa) - so I was curious when staying on C&Ps - are you taxed on the cash portion?

 

[pointsjunkie]

you are taxed and you don't get triple starpoints from the hotel side only the double form the amex card.it does not count as a qualifying stay.

 

[DavidnRobin]

I am still having a hard time with a SFO-LHR RT flights - cost hasn't dropped to less than $1300pp RT. This includes taxes/fees which seem to be incredibly high ($400+ for a ~$800 ticket?) - what is up this this?

I guess I will play the waiting game, but would prefer to book sooner than later.

On a HI note (after Europe) - I was able to book SFO-LIH-OGG-SFO (direct flights) on UA for $733pp RT (total) for next Sept/Oct. I decided to pick it up