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SPG Hotel Category “changes” (aka increases) on Mar 4, 2008

nodge

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StarPoint conversion Fun Fact

Hey Gang,

It's time for a StarPoint conversion fun fact:

Question:

If you were willing to throw all reason aside and convert your perfectly good 2 bedroom, premium season week at a top SVN timeshare resort to enough SPG StarPoints to get 4-5 nights in a Category 6 SPG HOTEL room (or a whopping 2 nights in a Cat 7 HOTEL room), and you requested the conversion within the pre-established window for doing it, could SVN still deny your request?

Answer: YES

Please Note: To effectively manage the inventory of your Home Resort, and to ensure that there is sufficient space for Starwood Vacation Network (SVN) members, allotments for Starpoints conversion are set according to season and villa type at each resort. If the total allotment number has been reached, or if it is determined that SVN does not have the ability to rent the week to recover the costs associated with the conversion, a request may be denied. (Direct quote from mystarcentral.com)

I'm guessing SVN salespeople aren't going out of their way to burden potential purchasers with this little nugget of info.

-nodge
 
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DavidnRobin

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Nodge - you are a real gem - keep up the good fight.

RRRR
 

formerhater

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As long as conversion rates stay at the current level, I'm fairly confident we won't be hitting any quotas on conversions.
 

davidahn

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Ratios

Mathematically speaking, as the number of SVO resorts (with thousands of TS owners per resort) is increasing at a faster rate than hotels, we have reached a point where the hotels are saturated with SVO owners and reduces paying hotel customers. It is necessary for Starwood to give disincentives for converting to SP's and tying up hotel rooms to keep the hotel business profitable, and that's what they're doing. Eventually, they will create a category 8 and move all their properties up a category and the only way to realistically use SP's is the incentive SP's from purchase of developer units and from the Amex card use, though even those will most wisely be used for airline conversions as hotels become too "costly" in terms of SPs. In other words, the SP conversion option was never sustainable in the long run unless they opened new hotels at the same rate they expanded their SVO portfolio. So they are slowly phasing out the SP conversion option by making it less attractive, leaving it as nothing more than a selling bullet point for developer sales.

David
 
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formerhater

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I think it's important to remember that SPG and SVO are very different entities. There seems to be a tendency around here to see all SPG program adjustments as a conspiracy by SVO to screw us. Don't get me wrong, I believe SVO is trying to maximize their profit at our expense, but they don't control SPG (or hotel category levels).

I look at them more like American Express when it comes to Starpoints. They buy Starpoints from SPG to then "sell" to their customers (for either credit card usage, SVO purchase incentives, or SVO unit conversion). For them to keep up with Starpoint devaluation, they have to buy more points for us, which costs them more money. AMEX sometimes offers promos (especially to those who don't use their card much to entice spending). For Starpoint conversion to truly be a benefit of ownership again, SVO will have to adjust values, but I'm not sure there's much incentive for them to do so. They're in the business of making sales and seem to be doing ok in that department. As for those who figure out it's not a good deal to convert after they buy, why would SVO care? If someone gets mad enough, they sell and then someone else pays the MFs. Net change for SVO?
 

DavidnRobin

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As long as conversion rates stay at the current level, I'm fairly confident we won't be hitting any quotas on conversions.


Plus - considering the increasing resales where SO cannot be converted to SPs - no likely an issue. This was probably added in case SO-SP conversions got out of control because in SVO's mind SO-SP conversion is such a great benefit (not)
 

Transit

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I think it's important to remember that SPG and SVO are very different entities. There seems to be a tendency around here to see all SPG program adjustments as a conspiracy by SVO to screw us. Don't get me wrong, I believe SVO is trying to maximize their profit at our expense, but they don't control SPG (or hotel category levels).

I look at them more like American Express when it comes to Starpoints. They buy Starpoints from SPG to then "sell" to their customers (for either credit card usage, SVO purchase incentives, or SVO unit conversion). For them to keep up with Starpoint devaluation, they have to buy more points for us, which costs them more money. AMEX sometimes offers promos (especially to those who don't use their card much to entice spending). For Starpoint conversion to truly be a benefit of ownership again, SVO will have to adjust values, but I'm not sure there's much incentive for them to do so. They're in the business of making sales and seem to be doing ok in that department. As for those who figure out it's not a good deal to convert after they buy, why would SVO care? If someone gets mad enough, they sell and then someone else pays the MFs. Net change for SVO?

SVO has used starpoint conversion as a major selling point. It is the base factor of a "hotel brand TS". Without the commitment to increse TS starpoint value with spg value the whole things a washout.Why buy a hotel based TS when the Hotel part is completely unusable. Different people bought for different reasons .I bought to float through SVN using staroptions but I was also sold on the starpoint conversion ,which has become a useless option to me.
 

LisaRex

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Mathematically speaking, as the number of SVO resorts (with thousands of TS owners per resort) is increasing at a faster rate than hotels, we have reached a point where the hotels are saturated with SVO owners and reduces paying hotel customers.

There are only 18 total properties in SVO. 2 that were in development (Aruba and Lagunamar) have been either scrapped or seriously delayed. Where in the world did you get the notion that SVO was expanding so rapidly that it would outpace hotels?

And remember that SVO members ARE paying customers. Twice over. AND when they do exchange their 2 bdrm villas for 5 nights at the Hampton Inn Poughkeepsie, Starwood is then free to rent out their vacated villas and pocket the revenue. (Starwood pays the resort a housekeeping fee and pockets the rest.)

SPG is also beginning to allow SPG members to use StarPoints to book villas at our resorts. This is a great perk for SPG members. So Starwood would be stupid to discourage this symbiotic relationship. It just needs to balance out the conversion rate for SVO members.
 

grgs

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There are only 18 total properties in SVO. 2 that were in development (Aruba and Lagunamar) have been either scrapped or seriously delayed.

One slight correction: Lagunamar in Cancun is proceeding; the Westin Cabo is the Mexico project that is delayed. I am concerned, though, that this may be a sign that SVO is having problems and will not be growing as fast as they have been.

Glorian
 

Transit

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Responce from Starwood

Dear XXXXXXXXXX,

Thank you for contacting Sheraton Vacation Ownership. We welcome the opportunity to assist you.

As an incidental benefit, the Starwood Preferred Guest Program offers a variety of travel benefits which owners such as you are clearly taking advantage of. Please know, it is in result of owner feedback such as yours that we continually pursue enhancements for the SVN Program to bring benefit for all owners. The Starwood Preferred Guest Program is no exception. You may be pleased to know that SVO Management, Inc. is currently reviewing the impact of Starwood Hotel category changes for consideration of interval StarPoint valuation increases. We kindly thank you for your patience in this matter.

Should you need further assistance, please contact Owner Services at 800.847.8262 in the U.S., Canada and Puerto Rico, 0.800.89.5065 in the United Kingdom, 001.800.847.8262 from Mexico and 407.903.4640 for all other areas. Owner Services is available Monday through Friday, 9 a.m. to 9 p.m. and Saturday through Sunday, 9 a.m. to 6 p.m. Eastern time.

Sincerely,
xxxxxxxxxx
E-Communications Specialist
Owner Services.
Did anyone get an identical responce?
 

rocky

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As always, Gleff from http://boardingarea.com/blogs/viewfromthewing/ gives a decent explanation for the annual starpoint recategorization. This will provide some context for those SVO members who are unfamiliar with this annual event --

and as a sidebar, the Princeville's upcoming closure surely had something to do with the recategorization to Cat 5.

*************************************************

Starwood’s Annual Recategorization of Hotel Award Categories Goes Into Effect March 4

Starwood has announced its new hotel award categories which will govern redemptions beginning March 4.

Each year they recategorize hotels which means different point amounts required for redemption. Last year was the mother of all recategorizations, tons of hotels around the world costing 42% or 60% more points than in the previous year. Set off a firestorm, really.

The Starwood program sets each hotel’s category not by the hotel’s quality (as some people often misunderstand, eg “that hotel was awful, how can it be a category 4?”). Rather, they set the category based on a hotel’s average daily room rates in the prior year.

With higher hotel prices, it’s taken more points than before to redeem. But that’s not the only thing that drove last year’s recategorization. The way that Starwood accomplishes its heralded ‘no capacity controls’ policy (if there’s a standard room at the hotel available you can book it for points) is that if a hotel’s occupancy rate for the redemption night exceeds 90%, the hotel gets paid its average daily room rate for that night. It’s much more expensive for the program to do that rather than pay the deep discounted standard redemption room rate, but it allows them to obtain the award nights from the hotel. With occupancy rates so high, Starwood was paying out a lot more of those average daily room rates to hotels. Their costs were soaring.

Fortunately this year’s adjustments aren’t nearly so brutal.

It’s always especially disappointing to see hotels moved into the new category 7 that was created last year. Looks like there are (11) new hotels going there:

Hotel Prince de Galles - Paris Champs Elyssees
St. Regis Rome
Mystique in Greece
Cervo Hotel, Sardinia
Hotel Eden, Rome
Danieli, Venice
Hotel Marqués de Riscal, Spain
Hotel President Wilson, Geneva
Sheraton Park Tower, London
Le Meridien Bora Bora
At least the Princeville Reort on Kauai drops from category 6 to category 5, which is nice since I’ll probably redeem there sometime in the next year.

The biggest bummers for me are that the Westin St. John, Hotel Grande Bretagne in Athens, and Le Meridien Barcelona are both going to category 6, along with the Sheraton Moorea (which was one of the best values in Starwood at category 5, and was truly amazing back when it was category 4).

The St. Regis Beijing (currently undergoing renovations, so I can visit there on my upcoming trip, bummer) is moving up to category 6 … while the St. Regis in Shanghai is dropping from category 5 to category 4.

When a hotel goes from category 5 to 6, the low season redemption prices go from 12,000 to 20,000. That’s a shocking two-thirds increase!

And most offensive is that the truly terrible W New York is as well. Pretty much no reason to ever redeem there, pick any of the other New York W’s instead for the same number of points (high/low season considerations aside). The last time I stayed at the W New York I had a bathroom so small that when you sat on the toilet you had to angle your arm underneath the sink. And I’m not a particularly big guy.

The lovely Le Meridien Limassol on Cyprus is going up to Category 5, their Platinum recognition is great and they have lots of suites, I’d say that hotel remains well worth it at the increased number of points.

I’d guess that the bumps in Australia (Westins in Sydney and Melbourne and the Sheraton in Noosa going from category 4 to 5) have more to do with the strength of the Austrlian dollar agains the US dollar… their room rates are higher in dollar terms as a result, that’s probably driving the higher average daily room rate which for Starwood Preferred Guest redemption purposes is denominated in US currency.

So what do you do? Thankfully, Starwood has posted this information better than two weeks in advance. We don’t have to wait until the changes take place to know what they are! So book your redemptions now for any hotels going up in category! And since in most cases these redemptions are fully cancellable (within the hotel’s normal cancellation rules), you can make speculative bookings and cancel or change later if your plans change, all that you’ll lose is the savings you’re reaping now by booking at the current redemption rate.
 

Ken555

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FYI, Westin Whistler is increasing from 4 to 5. And, they've removed the Loft Suite upgrade from points redemption (I've got one of those for next month there) - which is a disappointment... it was the best 1,500/night upgrade I could find at SPG. If I didn't have friends who lived in Whistler I'd probably just go to Steamboat or Mammoth from now on...on the other hand, perhaps I'll just go to all three... :)
 

pointsjunkie

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i just booked st john for next year. then we will book st. maarten. if i get a reservation using staroptions then i could cancel or invite someone else to come with us. we'll see.

just got my sales incentive from the purchases in december. took forever.
 

Carolyn

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Hi Gang,

I suspect we all just received the same email from Starwood alerting us of category “changes” (aka increases) to some Starwood hotels. Check out this link for a complete listing of which hotels will be “changing” (aka increasing) their category level, thereby “changing” (aka increasing) the number of StarPoints required for a stay.

OK, OK, technically they can be considered "changes" instead of "increases," because even though over 200 hotels did in fact INCREASE their category level, at least 6 have LOWERED their category level. This, of course, is great news for all you Four Points by Sheraton Chambersburg (Pennsylvania - Cat 2 to Cat 1) and Sheraton Presidente San Salvador (El Salvador, Cat 3 to Cat 2) fans.

On the other hand, both the Westin St. John (Virgin Islands) and the W New York are increasing from Category 5 to Category 6 on Mar 4, 2008.

One bright spot is that they have lowered the Princeville Resort (Kauai) from a Cat 6 to a Cat 5.

Book your SPG stays before March 4, 2008 to get the original StarPoint rates for these hotels (or if you are looking forward to your Chambersburg stay, hold off until after Mar 4th to book it . . . if you can wait that long).

FYI,
-nodge

PS: The above link displays the CAT 1 hotels. Use the drop down box in the upper right corner of the window that opens to view other categories, or click below for each list:

Category 1 Hotels
Category 2 Hotels
Category 3 Hotels
Category 4 Hotels
Category 5 Hotels
Cateogry 6 Hotels
Cateogry 7 Hotels

Here is a blog about this:

http://www.elliott.org/blog/starwood-devalues-award-points-in-a-pretty-sneaky-way/

Carolyn
 

davidahn

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Math

There are only 18 total properties in SVO. 2 that were in development (Aruba and Lagunamar) have been either scrapped or seriously delayed. Where in the world did you get the notion that SVO was expanding so rapidly that it would outpace hotels?

And remember that SVO members ARE paying customers. Twice over. AND when they do exchange their 2 bdrm villas for 5 nights at the Hampton Inn Poughkeepsie, Starwood is then free to rent out their vacated villas and pocket the revenue. (Starwood pays the resort a housekeeping fee and pockets the rest.)

SPG is also beginning to allow SPG members to use StarPoints to book villas at our resorts. This is a great perk for SPG members. So Starwood would be stupid to discourage this symbiotic relationship. It just needs to balance out the conversion rate for SVO members.

First, they're not scrapping/holding those projects just so SVO owners will get their SPG upgrades; it's the crapping out of the economy. So two are scrapped, for SVO's own health, not ours, but they're still opening Princeville and Lagunamar in '08, an increase from 17 to 19, a 12% increase. Are they opening 103 new hotels this year to keep pace (12% of 860) so we can keep getting our free rooms and upgrades? In the time SVO went from 8 resorts to 16, did they double their hotel count? This is the mathematical issue we're having, and why no one is getting upgrades any more.

You're right, we are "paying" guests because they ARE renting our rooms, and making money, but there is still a finite number of rooms in the hotels and they'd still rather have their cake and eat it too with paying hotel customers. So SVO members are still bumping into each other at the hotels and locking each other out of upgrades, which is good for Starwood, bad for us, because of the unbalanced math.

The hotel business is relatively mature and unlikely to grow at the same pace as the relatively newer timeshare business, so the solution for SVO is to leave SPs as a marketing bullet point. Unless they build a LOT more hotels and stop building SVO resorts, they will NOT balance out. Face it, SPs are dead except for airline tickets.

David
 

davidahn

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Oh, BTW

BTW, can you imagine if they didn't scrap those two SVO resorts? They would have grown from 17 to 21, a 23.5% growth in 1 year, and Starwood would have had to build/acquire 202 new hotels to keep pace with their current POOR rate of upgrades, much less improve it.

David
 
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