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Speculation About Marriott's New Timeshare Structure [merged]

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RandR

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You guys are still thinking in terms of your deeded weeks which will remain what you bought plat,gold,ect. When a points system is set up your week will have a points value. What ever value Marriott decides your unit is worth in points is what you will have to work with. If Marriott does this there will be a points chart and seasons available at resorts most likely will not line up with what is a plat/gold/silver seasons now.The resort i'm interested in is Marriott legends edge. It has a huge Plat season. I don't see a October plat week needing the same amount of points as weeks 24-30. I would imagine that when a points chart comes out it will be broken down into 3 or 4 levels from a high season to a low season and not all high seasons at every resort will match what is now plat. This is not a negative view but a realistic speculation of what we may see when the points charts do roll out.Take a look at other points charts from Hyatt,Starwood ,and DVC to get an idea of what the Highest and lowest points resorts/seasons may look like.

But wouldn't that cause problems? What happens if someone bought a Plat week from the developer and was told the deeded week is not important as long as it is in the Plat season but now under the points system that week is given less points because the week that is deeded is not in the new "high" season? Why did they spend all that money for something that is now devalued? If they give everyone that has a Plat week the same amount of points but lower the number of points needed for some of the those weeks, you will have excess points and possible not enough weeks for all owners to be guaranteed a week at their hoome resort.
 

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Yes- Marriott has to keep their best customers happy. But you are totally missing my point- I am not saying that Marriott has to gear a program towards keeping lesser season owners happy at all costs, even at the expense of more invested owners, but that one of the dangers in any potential program is that some owners may become disenfranchised- and that is a real pitfall that could result in a lot of unhappy owners and an increase in delinquencies (which impacts everyone). It is just a theoretical discussion- like all the rest of this discussion in this thread.

And, yes, again you are right- Marriott can legally make all sorts of changes that "could" basically make anything but usage of our home resort a moot point. You have reiterated that over and over again that there are all sorts of caveats that allow Marriott to make subtle and even broader changes. I just don't get your point to underscoring that repetitively. Just because they can, doesn't mean they will, and certainly doesn't mean that it would be in anyone's best interests- even theirs.

They did devalue a perk of ownership when they devalued the rewards points program. Even though I acknowledged that was a necessary byproduct of any such program, I did also criticize Marriott for not having reevaluated the points they awarded for timeshare exchanges, and mentioned that it should have a built in appreciation factor. In a similar fashion, any points assigned to timeshares in a timeshare points program will likely be devalued over time as new resorts come on board IF Marriott decides that's the best way to stimulate sales. Hey- they develop Cancun, and build similar units to let's say any of the other premium properties. But in order to sell it they assign it the highest point value- even though owners in Maui or elsewhere paid a lot more and have much higher MF's on an annual basis. True- it's a valuable sales tool. But if your Plat. HH week can only trade in for 5 days instead of a week because Marriott inflated the value as a sales tool, maybe you'd think it was ok but I'm guesting there are many people who wouldn't. That's an example of what I feel is a potential risk with a points program IF the developer wants to be greedy (and since it appears that this is being introduced at least in part as a sales tool, I think it is a potential issue).

Maybe you feel that Marriott should simply continually address the needs of potential customers- that's fine, and you are entitled to your opinion, as I am to mine- that if you dry up the current customer base with dissatisfaction, you narrow the future customer base. That's why I think Marriott needs to develop something that appeals to a broader base of its customers, and can't simply dismiss half of its owners with a program that won't be appealing to them.

Time will tell....

Is there some reason why me repeating myself is a problem, when you and most others in this discussion are doing the same thing? I'm just not sure I get why you are repeatedly telling me that I am repeating myself. :shrug:

We agree here more than we disagree, m. You're right, Marriott shouldn't simply dismiss half of its owners. Your point of view seems to be, though, that Marriott's concern going forward should be with the owners who may find themselves getting less exchange value in a new exchange system from their Silver season/1BR weeks than they may be getting now. My point of view is that Marriott should be concerned with the owners who are now getting less exchange value from their Platinum/3BR weeks and could get more in a new system. If most owners are unhappy with II, as Fletch indicated, it's likely that those Platinum/3BR owners are the ones voicing their unhappiness. IMO, if any group of owners must be adversely affected by Marriott rolling out a new exchange system, it shouldn't be the owners whose resort/season/unit configuration practically guarantees them a trade-down in the current system.

I don't know if it's correct but I also get the feeling that you think maybe Marriott shouldn't roll out any new system because the risk of upsetting any group of owners is too great. If I'm incorrect here, ignore me. If not, isn't risk/reward something that businesses have to assess on a routine basis? Marriott has had to take steps this year in this terrible economy - development suspension, etc. - that have severely impacted their bottom line. Remaining static right now isn't an option, they must generate revenue somewhere. I'm guessing that the revenue generated by an internal exchange system for Marriott, coming from stimulated sales and current owner conversions, far exceeds whatever risk there may be in a certain number of current owners becoming unhappy enough to default. Plus, defaults don't only hurt Marriott or other owners, the individual defaulting could suffer personal financial effects for quite a while. I don't think that many would or could make that choice as easily as you insinuate. But, if you're worried about Silver/1BR owners defaulting, why aren't you worried about Platinum/3BR owners defaulting? ;)
 

AwayWeGo

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[triennial - points]
Is There An Echo In Here ?

Is there some reason why me repeating myself is a problem, when you and most others in this discussion are doing the same thing?
Shux, if I didn't keep on repeating myself, then most of the time I wouldn't have much to say -- not just here on TUG-BBS, but practically everywhere.

The main problem at my age is trying to remember whom I already told stuff to & who's hearing it for the 1st time.

On TUG-BBS, there's apt to be a goodly measure of repetition in just about every entry I send in -- not that there's anything wrong with that.

Official TUG-BBS policy frowns on duplicate entries, but somehow I manage to keep on typing the same things over & over without actually bumping into the No Repeats rule, most of the time anyhow.

Keep in mind also that Repetition Is The Mother Of Learning.

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​
 

m61376

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I don't know how easily such a system could be implemented, but Marriott could make an exception for using your home resort/week. The could still (potentially) have a higher point value for some weeks but allow owners to reserve those weeks if they own that particular view/season/size even though they are not alloted enough points to get said week via trade.

That's what I was thinking when i read Frank's post. if the points system is an overlay system, affecting only internal trades but not reserving your own deeded week, that would work.
 

SueDonJ

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But wouldn't that cause problems? What happens if someone bought a Plat week from the developer and was told the deeded week is not important as long as it is in the Plat season but now under the points system that week is given less points because the week that is deeded is not in the new "high" season? Why did they spend all that money for something that is now devalued? If they give everyone that has a Plat week the same amount of points but lower the number of points needed for some of the those weeks, you will have excess points and possible not enough weeks for all owners to be guaranteed a week at their hoome resort.

But in an overlay system, owners would still be reserving their own use according to the terms of the existing deed - they would still only be able to reserve their one week. It's only when they might use the points alloted to that week to exchange back into their home resort/season, that they could possibly get one-week-plus. Exchanges would still be subject to availability.

Hmmmm. <sound of truck backing up beep-beep-beep>

I think I've changed my mind about this. I don't think Marriott will allot the same amount of points to every Platinum/2BR/Oceanview owner and at the same time muck around with the reservation calendar so that exchange weeks within that established season would require different points. Because theoretically in that system, many owners could reserve a week and then deposit it to get the allotted points and try to exchange back in to a different week in the same season for less points. It would be like musical chairs for owner weeks, with everyone trying to exchange back in. Hmmmmm. Unless they make a new rule that you can't exchange back in to the resort/season/unit configuration that you own?

Where is Fletch? He needs to reign us in here again and tell us that we're making this far too complicated. :hysterical:
 

m61376

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We agree here more than we disagree, m. You're right, Marriott shouldn't simply dismiss half of its owners. Your point of view seems to be, though, that Marriott's concern going forward should be with the owners who may find themselves getting less exchange value in a new exchange system from their Silver season/1BR weeks than they may be getting now. My point of view is that Marriott should be concerned with the owners who are now getting less exchange value from their Platinum/3BR weeks and could get more in a new system. If most owners are unhappy with II, as Fletch indicated, it's likely that those Platinum/3BR owners are the ones voicing their unhappiness. IMO, if any group of owners must be adversely affected by Marriott rolling out a new exchange system, it shouldn't be the owners whose resort/season/unit configuration practically guarantees them a trade-down in the current system.

I don't know if it's correct but I also get the feeling that you think maybe Marriott shouldn't roll out any new system because the risk of upsetting any group of owners is too great. If I'm incorrect here, ignore me. If not, isn't risk/reward something that businesses have to assess on a routine basis? Marriott has had to take steps this year in this terrible economy - development suspension, etc. - that have severely impacted their bottom line. Remaining static right now isn't an option, they must generate revenue somewhere. I'm guessing that the revenue generated by an internal exchange system for Marriott, coming from stimulated sales and current owner conversions, far exceeds whatever risk there may be in a certain number of current owners becoming unhappy enough to default. Plus, defaults don't only hurt Marriott or other owners, the individual defaulting could suffer personal financial effects for quite a while. I don't think that many would or could make that choice as easily as you insinuate. But, if you're worried about Silver/1BR owners defaulting, why aren't you worried about Platinum/3BR owners defaulting? ;)
Frankly, I think rolling out a new system in this economy is risky. People may be frustrated with II (esp. those Plat. 3 BR owners), but they bought into a system the way it is and the potential uproar IF any new system (IF there is a new system) puts them at a disadvantage could be big. People get accustomed and accepting of what they already had; after all, it's what they bought into. It is different if something is changed and people suddenly find themselves at a disadvantage.

I guess where we disagree is that I don't think any new system should be geared to make one group happy at another's expense. If Marriott is unable to create something that most owners would find value in, then I guess my opinion would be not to rock the boat. When I looked at the Asia Pacific points program I didn't see that most people would benefit. I don't know if they will create a program which most people perceive as being positive. I do feel that if the program, as Fletch suggested is good for the Plat. owners who should join and not so good for others, who should stay with II, that overall it won't be a good program. Of course, that's my opinion, and you are free to disagree.

And I do worry that IF Marriott uses this as a sales tool to enhance sales (which would be a likely scenario) and artificially inflate point values at future resorts, that your nice 3BR Plat. HH resort will only get the same number of days in a 2BR, with devaluation an intrinsic part of the program. Also, IF the point valuation mirrors the other points program which they rolled out (which I can only guess was a trial of sorts for a system wide overhaul), you might find that you need your whole 3BR to trade into many other 2BR's anyway, that Marirott arbitrarily has assigned higher point values. So, while it is always hard to get a 3BR on exchange because of inventory, at least most 3BR owners could lock off and use their 2BR for an equivalent exchange (at least owners of 3BR lock-offs; I'm not sure, but I don't think the HH 3BR's are lock-offs); I'm guessing that those great Plat. 3BR weeks won't be high enough on the Marriott ladder to get some of the premium 3BR's elsewhere. When I looked over the Asia Pacific point allocation and saw that a 2BR Waiohai owner couldn't exchange into a 2BR in Ko'Olina for a week, it made me realize that arbitrary point allocations could be a real impediment to what we're accustomed to considering as equal trades.

I guess that's my biggest concern and why I am wary of a new program. My guess is that, in the case of the Asia Pacific program, Marriott has lots of Ko'Olina inventory left to sell, so enhancing its points value is a good sales tool. Good for the future buyer (at least until the next resort comes along), but bad for other owners who won't have enough points to trade in. I'd venture to guess that most owners at these two properties, while liking one over the other perhaps for their own reasons, would have considered them as equivalent trades.

Admittedly, those that own whatever Marriott deems to be the top weeks will be happy campers (at least for the short run); Platinum owners of "lesser" resorts likely won't be as happy, and Gold owners (except for a few high demand Gold properties) probably less thrilled and I foresee a lot of unhappy Silver and Bronze week owners. So I don't think we can make the assumption that a new system will prevent Plat. week owners from essentially "trading down." I have to admit, I thought the same thing, until I looked at their earlier program roll out.

As for MF's and defaults- at status quo (the way things are) the vast majority of people feel they get value out of their ownership, enough to pay their MF's. Diminishing value for some owners increases the risk of some people defaulting. While it is not as simple as "walking away," if you look elsewhere (have you read the posts from Starwood's owners discussing the problem) it seems that many disenchanted owners have felt that they'd rather swallow the credit hit from walking away than continue paying MF's. I was surprised, but it has happened. If it could happen there when owners felt disenfranchised, it can happen here. That's why I'm acknowledging a risk.

Aside from the issue of whether resale units are charged more up front, I own weeks that will likely do well in the new system (at least initially), so I'm not voicing concerns from a personal vantage point. I am just not convinced that changing things will benefit enough people while only minimally negatively impacting others for such a program to work overall. Again, I know it has worked very well elsewhere, but superimposing a system upon another is very different than having a set of rules that encouraged the initial sales.
 

m61376

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But in an overlay system, owners would still be reserving their own use according to the terms of the existing deed - they would still only be able to reserve their one week. It's only when they might use the points alloted to that week to exchange back into their home resort/season, that they could possibly get one-week-plus. Exchanges would still be subject to availability.

Hmmmm. <sound of truck backing up beep-beep-beep>

I think I've changed my mind about this. I don't think Marriott will allot the same amount of points to every Platinum/2BR/Oceanview owner and at the same time muck around with the reservation calendar so that exchange weeks within that established season would require different points. Because theoretically in that system, many owners could reserve a week and then deposit it to get the allotted points and try to exchange back in to a different week in the same season for less points. It would be like musical chairs for owner weeks, with everyone trying to exchange back in. Hmmmmm. Unless they make a new rule that you can't exchange back in to the resort/season/unit configuration that you own?

Where is Fletch? He needs to reign us in here again and tell us that we're making this far too complicated. :hysterical:

Haha...it could, though, even out demand for the weeks in a season. Take NCV, for example. For the sake of argument, give every Platinum owner 5,000 points. Every Plat. owner can try to reserve a prime week in the season as they do now at 12 months, using their owned week (not points). However, at some time that Marriott has predetermined (assuming that they decide to maintain home resort advantage and not eliminate it as Fletch suggested), they can trade into MCV or any other resort, but the "cost" for trades are 6,000 points for July to mid-August weeks, 5,000 points perhaps for June and late August weeks, and 4,000 points for other Platinum season weeks. Theoretically, some owners might opt for lesser value weeks in the season to maximize their points, and instead of being angry that they can't get that coveted July week, may be happy that they've gotten a longer stay.
 

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Marriott has sent out numerous surveys to see what the majority of owners want and has had ample time to study the positive and negatives of other points systems. I'm sure that they would not roll out a half baked plan in this economy. They must have something up their sleeves good enough to make money and convince owners to be involved in. It may be the ignition to move the whole timeshare industry back in the right direction.:D ..............Or maybe Perry's right and this is the end????? :shrug:
 
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SueDonJ

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... I guess where we disagree is that I don't think any new system should be geared to make one group happy at another's expense. If Marriott is unable to create something that most owners would find value in, then I guess my opinion would be not to rock the boat. ...

But we don't disagree there, m. This may be going over old ground, but I don't think Marriott's objective anytime should be looking for ways to devalue ownership for any certain group of owners. If that's the only reason for considering any new ownership use/value/option/whatever, it is a terrible reason! But that isn't why they're considering a new internal exchange system - the reason for this is to generate revenue. That's it.

I don't even think that when they do have a good reason to implement a new whatever that they should be looking for ways to gear it toward, or reward, a certain subset of owners. The most equitable should be the norm, but we must recognize that no system will satisfy every owner all of the time.

However, the fact is that the current exchange system with II is NOT anywhere near the most equitable. Owners of Silver/1BR/older resorts are routinely able to trade up and owners of Platinum/3BR/newer resorts are routinely limited by availability to trade-downs. IF Marriott is to roll out a new internal exchange system in an effort to generate revenue, with an eye toward it being most equitable, the natural result of that objective being met will result in different exchange usage for those owners who now enjoy/suffer those trade-ups/downs. But punishment/reward isn't the objective; equitability is.

I think it's inevitable that some change is going to happen sooner rather than later with our Marriott timeshares, because their bottom line cannot sustain the non-growth that they're suffering in this economy. If the economy wasn't so bad right now, they wouldn't have had to suspend further development and would be able to continue selling inventory at full price. Instead, their latest and greatest resorts are either still on the drawing board or selling very slowly at reduced prices, and their established customer base is sitting gingerly on their owned weeks, some realizing for the first time that there is inherent devaluation in owning timeshares, waiting to see if the other shoe is going to drop. MVCI has to develop some way to generate a revenue stream that is perceived by enough existing and potential owners to be of fair value - do you see any other way for them to do so?
 
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Just to add to the speculation I would imagine that if Marriott does go to an internal point system units would be offered AC's more frequently for II deposit.

OF course it will. Basic law of supply and demand.
 

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OF course it will. Basic law of supply and demand.

Not exactly a given . If Marriott takes control of inventory away from II like other points systems AC's may not be issued at all.After thinking about this it can go either way depending on the system they produce.
 
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dougp26364

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Not exactly a given . If Marriott take control of inventory away from II like other points systems AC's may not be issued at all.After thinking about this it can go either way depending on the system they produce.

In order for points to have value, there will be a contract with Interval stating Marriott will provide so many weeks of a certain quality. Otherwise, if Marriott only provided Interval with the lowest quality weeks, Marriott points would be worthless for outside exchange. Since a contract will be in place which determines in advance what quality of units and how many internval can expect to receive, there is no need for Interval to offer AC's.

With DRI we have our units in their points based system. I receive no offers of AC's to deposit our points. However, if I were to deposit the weeks used to generate those DRI points, certain weeks still receive AC's from Interval. Of course the current value of AC's could be debated and, IMHO, they aren't worth the cyber paper their printed on.

A points system won't generate AC's. It will eliminate them IMHO. But, as mentioned, those that remain in the weeks based system MIGHT see an increase in AC offers but, that will depend on the contract and what type and how many units Marriott agrees to give Interval from any points based exchange program.
 

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I guess that's my biggest concern and why I am wary of a new program. My guess is that, in the case of the Asia Pacific program, Marriott has lots of Ko'Olina inventory left to sell, so enhancing its points value is a good sales tool. Good for the future buyer (at least until the next resort comes along), but bad for other owners who won't have enough points to trade in. I'd venture to guess that most owners at these two properties, while liking one over the other perhaps for their own reasons, would have considered them as equivalent trades.





Didn't Hyatt just do that with Monterey, couldnt sell it out , so lets make it worth more points. Its just too hard to resist, and if the new system Marriott rolls out allows for this, it spells big trouble.
 

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You guys are still thinking in terms of your deeded weeks which will remain what you bought plat,gold,ect. When a points system is set up your week will have a points value. What ever value Marriott decides your unit is worth in points is what you will have to work with. If Marriott does this there will be a points chart and seasons available at resorts most likely will not line up with what is a plat/gold/silver seasons now.The resort I'm interested in is Marriott legends edge. It has a huge Plat season. I don't see a October plat week needing the same amount of points as weeks 24-30. I would imagine that when a points chart comes out it will be broken down into 3 or 4 levels from a high season to a low season and not all high seasons at every resort will match what is now plat. This is not a negative view but a realistic speculation of what we may see when the points charts do roll out.Take a look at other points charts from Hyatt,Starwood ,and DVC to get an idea of what the Highest and lowest points resorts/seasons may look like.

I agree. The points will probably be different even within what used to be their current seasons. This may have a negative effect on some people. But at the end of the day, I don't see any legal issues with this because 1) when they roll out the program, current owners will be told what their point value will be and what the reservation charts will be. It will be the owners choice to sign up for the new system, thereby accepting the new point value. and 2) if you don't join, the seasons will stay the same for you.
 

dougp26364

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I agree. The points will probably be different even within what used to be their current seasons. This may have a negative effect on some people. But at the end of the day, I don't see any legal issues with this because 1) when they roll out the program, current owners will be told what their point value will be and what the reservation charts will be. It will be the owners choice to sign up for the new system, thereby accepting the new point value. and 2) if you don't join, the seasons will stay the same for you.

I don't think there will be a difference within the seasons for one reason. When the weeks were sold, no one had a choice as to what week they were purchasing. Giving some owners in a season more points just because they got lucky and had one of the more desirable weeks assigned to their deed would raise a lot of complaints and customer distatisfaction. IMHO, it's not goint to happen. As a betting man, my bet is all platinum weeks will have one point value at each indivicual resort. Same with Gold and Silver.

In hind sight, Marriott may wish they had sold those weeks differently, making all holiday weeks platinum plus, but it's a little to late to turn the clock back now.

Could it happen? Sure it could. I just see to many negatives and not enough positives for Marriott to go that direction.
 

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I don't think there will be a difference within the seasons for one reason. When the weeks were sold, no one had a choice as to what week they were purchasing. Giving some owners in a season more points just because they got lucky and had one of the more desirable weeks assigned to their deed would raise a lot of complaints and customer distatisfaction. IMHO, it's not goint to happen. As a betting man, my bet is all platinum weeks will have one point value at each indivicual resort. Same with Gold and Silver.

In hind sight, Marriott may wish they had sold those weeks differently, making all holiday weeks platinum plus, but it's a little to late to turn the clock back now.

Could it happen? Sure it could. I just see to many negatives and not enough positives for Marriott to go that direction.
I agree that Marriott will assign uniform point values to all owners in a given season. To suddenly make week numbers on deeds important (for floating weeks) would just be too hypocritical, whether or not they gave owners the option to join.

However- and here's the rub- they can, and I think likely will for at least some resorts, have a varying point schedule for trading into different weeks, even if they were assigned the same season. In reality, this makes sense- it would reflect real demand and I think would actually be more equitable in many ways, although it would be in essence acknowledging that the Platinum season, for example, was perhaps too long in some places.

In an ideal situation, it could reflect other discrepancies- such as Silver at Ocean Pointe being the same as Gold and I think even some Plat. weeks at the newer Oceana Palms a mile away.

Like Sue has posted, there theoretically is a lot of potential to make things better for a lot of owners. The flip side is that there will likely be a lot of losers and I am not sure that they can develop a new system without a lot of pitfalls. I hope they can.

As Cruisin pointed out- even Hyatt, with an established and well regarded system, couldn't resist the temptation of perhaps artificially inflating point value simply to promote sales. Good for the buyers of that particular resort, but bad for every other owner who would like to trade into it one day. I think that is a very big issue potentially going forward, and will depend a large part on corporate greed.

That's why I would feel more comfortable with a program that actually uses some realistic figure for demand (and the only one I can think of already in place are rack rental rates for the properties themselves) to set the point values, with average rates over a season being used to determine the point allocation and average rates over a set timeframe being used to determine the point "cost" of trading in. IF there was a set formula, then there would be a system in place that would at least partially offset the temptation to artificially inflate values at newer resorts (unless Marriott was also able to rent them at higher prices; if they are that good, then the law of supply and demand would dictate higher values for both rentals and therefore points). I also feel that it would invoke a certain perception of fairness if there was a sense of transparency rather than randomness to the point assignment.

I know I am just pontificating here (as are we all) but I'd just like to see a program where values are set realistically and owners can understand them rather than looking at them and wondering if someone was throwing darts making them up. When I looked at the Asia pacific point allocations, one of my first thoughts was "how did they ever think this up?' I'd hate to see that here.
 

dougp26364

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Personally, I'm in favor of the way Hilton has done things.

Point values for a season are the same at every resort.
Point values for better views are consistant thoughout the resorts.
Point values for units with upgraded amenities (penthouse units for example) are the same throughout the system.

The one blip IMHO with HGVC has been the grand Waikikian, which cost more in points no matter what the unit location, because HGVC says all the units have "upgraded" amenities. Hilton lost some of my faith when they started down the road of increase points required at the newest resort under the guise of upgraded amenities.

So what's the advantage of buying into Hawaii rather than Vegas or Orlando? You KNOW you can get the unit you bought months ahead of everyone else. Owners in Vegas and Orlando get the left overs.

But of course this isn't what I expect from Marriott. I expect each resort will have different points totals and the newer resorts will be more expensive than the older resorts. I fully expect that Oceana Palms will receive more points than Ocean Pointe. I expect Oceana Palms Plat. season weeks will recieve more points than Ocean Pointe.

When you think about it, that makes it somewhat easier for those that buy to exchange. They can buy a unit with the number of points they need to get most of the exchanges they want. Newer resorts have always been a tougher trade, even in a weeks based exchange system. All you have to do is look to HHI to see the truth in that. I can almost always get one of the older Marriott's on HHI but, Grand Ocean, Surfwatch and Barony are tougher trades. Which would you suspect would get higher points on HHI? The easier exchanges or those that tougher?
 

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Personally, I'm in favor of the way Hilton has done things.

Point values for a season are the same at every resort.
Point values for better views are consistant thoughout the resorts.
Point values for units with upgraded amenities (penthouse units for example) are the same throughout the system.

I think that would be appealing to a lot of owners and be a lot less confusing but, like you, am doubtful that they would do that.

And, while I can understand the rationale of assigning higher values to perhaps the 3 newer resorts in HH than the two older ones, since I am assuming the amenities warrant it, my concern is that Marriott will perhaps assign more to Surfwatch to promote sales there (since I think it is active sales) or do similarly elsewhere even though the properties don't warrant that.
 

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That's why I would feel more comfortable with a program that actually uses some realistic figure for demand

You already have this. It's called II...

Seriously - this is as close as you get to a true market because, for all its limitations, II takes both supply and demand into account and adjusts dynamically based on historical data. You do get an advantage for depositing early but you may still get your exchange 4 months out if you deposit a strong trader and the supply is there.
 

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And, while I can understand the rationale of assigning higher values to perhaps the 3 newer resorts in HH than the two older ones, since I am assuming the amenities warrant it, my concern is that Marriott will perhaps assign more to Surfwatch to promote sales there (since I think it is active sales) or do similarly elsewhere even though the properties don't warrant that.

Starwood did this with their Cancun property. Cancun was originally awarded 95,000 points for a 2br platinum, but the value was changed to 148,000 (enough to get a 2 bedroom in Hawaii) in order to jumpstart sales. Starwood also keeps the values of their highly desirable Caribbean properties artificially low which helps to promote sales at some of the other resorts.
 

m61376

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Starwood did this with their Cancun property. Cancun was originally awarded 95,000 points for a 2br platinum, but the value was changed to 148,000 (enough to get a 2 bedroom in Hawaii) in order to jumpstart sales. Starwood also keeps the values of their highly desirable Caribbean properties artificially low which helps to promote sales at some of the other resorts.

That's why I've referenced many of the problems that Starwood owners have been having, and how many of them are thoroughly disenchanted (many even to the point of just defaulting on their MF's because they just aren't getting enough value anymore). Hopefully Marriott will take note and, IF they do introduce a new program, will try to avoid many of the pitfalls of other programs. The fear is that corporate greed may exceed common sense.
 

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I think that would be appealing to a lot of owners and be a lot less confusing but, like you, am doubtful that they would do that.

And, while I can understand the rationale of assigning higher values to perhaps the 3 newer resorts in HH than the two older ones, since I am assuming the amenities warrant it, my concern is that Marriott will perhaps assign more to Surfwatch to promote sales there (since I think it is active sales) or do similarly elsewhere even though the properties don't warrant that.

I'm not sure, though, that the newer/still-in-developer-sales-mode resorts shouldn't be allotted higher point totals. But not because they're in developer sales and need the sales boost, as you suggest, but because the newer resorts have better amenities, were built with superior products, and yes, cost more to purchase. Using the example given (and hopefully not being seen as biased because I own at both,) I would fully expect SurfWatch and Barony Beach Gold/2BR/oceanside units to be considered unequal. Even with this year's refurb, Barony does not offer the level of luxury that SurfWatch does. The same comparisons can be made in any area which offers more than one MVCI resort or Marriott hotel - the newer ones are more in demand for exchanges for a reason, and it isn't only that folks like shiny new bling. With each and every resort that comes online MVCI/Marriott upgrades the overall product - in layout, appliances, architecture, furnishings, etc...

Another example I could use is Crystal Shores at Marco Island. Having seen it, I understand the pricing structure that was put in place for developer sales. Owner names are imprinted on bricks around the pools there (similar to DVC owner tapestries, I think) and, although I wouldn't choose to buy there, it honestly wasn't surprising to see how many have bought into it. The place is gorgeous, stunning, the most high-end resort I've seen yet. IMO, owners there should be allotted more points than other ocean resorts and not just because of the prices they've paid - they truly do own a superior product. And it's not even finished yet. (I haven't seen the new properties in Hawaii, Maui especially, but probably I would say the same for those.)

I agree, m, that there's reason to watch Marriott to be sure that future point values for new resorts aren't skewed drastically simply because it will boost sales, but I'm not sure that it's unreasonable to expect that new resorts will have higher point values. They should, if they're a better product and if they cost more to purchase because of that.
 

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That's why I've referenced many of the problems that Starwood owners have been having, and how many of them are thoroughly disenchanted (many even to the point of just defaulting on their MF's because they just aren't getting enough value anymore). Hopefully Marriott will take note and, IF they do introduce a new program, will try to avoid many of the pitfalls of other programs. The fear is that corporate greed may exceed common sense.

To be fair, Starwood has other issues. For example, you can't bank points (Staroptions) for use in future years, which means many owners have no hope of getting to Hawaii since they don't have enough points for even a studio. (You can barrow points, but only <90 days before checkin.) They also have a larger disparity in quality between the Sheraton and Westin resorts.

On the other hand, at least some of the problems are due to the fact that Starwood didn't build all of their resorts so, in that sense, they had to retro fit their system which is what Marriott is considering doing.
 

m61376

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Sue- While I do agree that there is good rationale for allocating more points to properties IF they really are better and have more amenities, just because they are newer doesn't necessarily make them better or more in demand. I haven't yet been to HH so I cannot comment, but I have read many posts by people who rank GO clearly better than both Barony and Surfwatch, and many who rate Surfwatch number three. Again, this is not from personal experience, and obviously your opinion is different, and I am not being critical. Clearly, there isn't a consensus of opinion over which resort is better. What I do think is that IF Marriott were to create a disparity in point valuation between these three resorts, there are bound to be disgruntled owners- and that's one minor example.

Another which many on this Board would appreciate is Aruba. Clearly the Surf Club is newer, more expensive and I'd argue better amenities. I know others would disagree. I'm sure OC owners, after paying a fortune for refurbishment, will have some very angry posts if they are allocated less points than the SC properties are.

So, while there are some properties in the same locale that most people may perceive as being distinctly better (perhaps Oceana Palms and Ocean Pointe are good examples, or the two Maui sections), there are many others where, as they say, beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

Just because a property is newer or cost more to build, doesn't mean it is better. "New" is very transient. That's why I was musing that there should be a somewhat objective set of criteria that values are based upon (as I suggested, possibly based on some formulation of what the fair market rental rate is, which is an already established formulation that represents true value and reflects different amenities and property demand), rather than some arbitrary designation which can unfairly be skewed to enhance sales.

That's why what Doug suggested, following at least what Hilton did until corporate greed perhaps took precedence, was an interesting concept. Leveling the playing field across seasons would be in keeping with the concepts that many owners bought into the program with and would lessen the impact of superimposing a new system.
 

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Sue- While I do agree that there is good rationale for allocating more points to properties IF they really are better and have more amenities, just because they are newer doesn't necessarily make them better or more in demand. I haven't yet been to HH so I cannot comment, but I have read many posts by people who rank GO clearly better than both Barony and Surfwatch, and many who rate Surfwatch number three. Again, this is not from personal experience, and obviously your opinion is different, and I am not being critical. Clearly, there isn't a consensus of opinion over which resort is better. What I do think is that IF Marriott were to create a disparity in point valuation between these three resorts, there are bound to be disgruntled owners- and that's one minor example.

Another which many on this Board would appreciate is Aruba. Clearly the Surf Club is newer, more expensive and I'd argue better amenities. I know others would disagree. I'm sure OC owners, after paying a fortune for refurbishment, will have some very angry posts if they are allocated less points than the SC properties are.

So, while there are some properties in the same locale that most people may perceive as being distinctly better (perhaps Oceana Palms and Ocean Pointe are good examples, or the two Maui sections), there are many others where, as they say, beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

Just because a property is newer or cost more to build, doesn't mean it is better. "New" is very transient. That's why I was musing that there should be a somewhat objective set of criteria that values are based upon (as I suggested, possibly based on some formulation of what the fair market rental rate is, which is an already established formulation that represents true value and reflects different amenities and property demand), rather than some arbitrary designation which can unfairly be skewed to enhance sales.

That's why what Doug suggested, following at least what Hilton did until corporate greed perhaps took precedence, was an interesting concept. Leveling the playing field across seasons would be in keeping with the concepts that many owners bought into the program with and would lessen the impact of superimposing a new system.

Of course people have personal preferences, and I'm not saying here that SurfWatch is a better resort than either Barony or Grande Ocean in the sense that everyone will like SurfWatch more. Clearly, we all have likes and dislikes, and the different resorts all have a different feel to them. I don't disagree that some folks will favor Grande Ocean over SurfWatch, or Aruba's Surf Club over Ocean Club. I'm not talking about personal preferences here, though.

What I am talking about is an objective review of the costs and materials associated with each resort. SurfWatch's design incorporates higher-quality material and the units there are higher-priced than any of the other HH resorts. Following Barony's refurb this year I'm pretty certain that GO's pricing structure still exceeds Barony's. I'd allot points to all of them based on those costs. I think, actually, that rack rates for direct rentals pretty closely follow those guidelines, and your idea to follow rental rates is an equitable solution. If rack rates at the two Aruba resorts are equal then I'd expect their point allocations to be equal also. But if they're not, then there should be a relative difference in the points allocated.

I completely disagree that every Platinum/2BR/Gardenview week under the MVCI umbrella should be allocated the same amount of points. There are obvious differences in the quality between the resorts that are reflected in purchase prices and rack rental rates. Points should be allocated based on the differences.
 
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