So-called "weeks raiding" a one way street? - see this!!

[Carolinian]

You cannot possibly believe this statement, can you? Come on. You are saying that only marginal trade ups are possible in weeks?

I doubt that very many of your staunchest supporters would agree with you on this point.

Be honest with us. I know you get a lot of emails from your supporters. On this topic, at least a couple of them must have said, "you know, Carolinian, I have always supported you, but there are some pretty darn good trade ups available in weeks."

For the most part, trades up tend to be marginal. It is the exceptions that get everyone's attention. Actually the one predictable source of trades up are the idiot resorts that bulkbank, creating a spike in supply. Eliminate that, and you would eliminate most of the genuine substantial trades up. It is the resort's own stupidity that they participate in bulkbanking.

 

[Carolinian]

In your opinion, apparently most don't feel the same as you do and that's OK.

The ''most'' you refer to is the same little predictable group of vocal points advocates. Unfortunately, the shrill postings of this little group has led most Weeks people just to lurk on points/rentals discussions or even migrate to other t/s boards.

 

[BocaBum99]

Re: What are you rights

All points enthusiasts support thie position with anectdotal stories. As a FIXED weeks person my rights come from the deed and my direct ownership not leased to be leased back properties which is the underpinning of all points systems. Once you assign your rights by leasing you property in exchenge for points you are at the mercy of the point controlling entity. This entity can do whatever it wishes with your property leaving you little contractual recourse. When that entity is the developer or tied to the developer, I have little confidence that they have your interest first, especially since their dual role already represents a inherent conflict. This is also true in floating weeks where the developer controls the managment and reservation system

You keep making assertions about point systems when you don't even know the facts of what you are asserting.

You and your cape cod oceanfront unit. You can only use that once a year. I stay in an Oceanfront unit almost once per month. I am doing it again this weekend. Where are you staying this weekend?

 

[geekette]

Re: What are you rights

All points enthusiasts support thie position with anectdotal stories. As a FIXED weeks person my rights come from the deed and my direct ownership not leased to be leased back properties which is the underpinning of all points systems. Once you assign your rights by leasing you property in exchenge for points you are at the mercy of the point controlling entity. This entity can do whatever it wishes with your property leaving you little contractual recourse. When that entity is the developer or tied to the developer, I have little confidence that they have your interest first, especially since their dual role already represents a inherent conflict. This is also true in floating weeks where the developer controls the managment and reservation system

I disagree on much of this. It also appears that you assume all points systems are the same, and they are NOT.

 

[e.bram]

To BocaBum99:

Actually next week I staying at my oceanfront unit in Jametown, RI. I will be staying there nad Cape Cod every year to come as a right not hoping to get a reservation from the point Gods.

 

[Dani]

I have deleted a few messages within this thread. Please be mindful of the rules of this BBS which require that we refrain from name calling and behaviour lectures.

 

[BocaBum99]

Re: To BocaBum99:

Actually next week I staying at my oceanfront unit in Jametown, RI. I will be staying there nad Cape Cod every year to come as a right not hoping to get a reservation from the point Gods.

Excellent come back.

If you want to use the exact same week every year. I agree that a fixed week is the best alternative.

That option is not something for everyone. And, many point systems provide owners with fixed week reservation capabilities. That includes Bluegreen, Fairfield Fixed week conversions, Hyatt and others. Will you acknowledge that fact?

 

[JeffV]

Re: What are you rights

you don't seem to understand that with RCI Points the underlying ownership does not change. You make a 3 year committment to being in Points and can get out of that arrangement at the end of 3 years and your rights and ownership has not changed. Those anectdotal stories (and I have a bunch of them) are fact not hypothetical wonderings of what might happen.

All points enthusiasts support thie position with anectdotal stories. As a FIXED weeks person my rights come from the deed and my direct ownership not leased to be leased back properties which is the underpinning of all points systems. Once you assign your rights by leasing you property in exchenge for points you are at the mercy of the point controlling entity. This entity can do whatever it wishes with your property leaving you little contractual recourse. When that entity is the developer or tied to the developer, I have little confidence that they have your interest first, especially since their dual role already represents a inherent conflict. This is also true in floating weeks where the developer controls the managment and reservation system

 

["Roger"]

Speaking bitterness

I was sitting here this morning, wondering how it could be that so many TUGgers are satisified with their ownerships in point systems and floating weeks, yet we are assured on such good authority that those systems are inherently vile and evil.....

Mornings and coffee must cause reflection. Rather than concerning myself with the comment du jour, I begin to think about the forest, not the trees.

I am a self confessed consumer of the blue pill. Since joining Points, year in, year out, I have done better than what I would have if I had stayed in Weeks. Any accusation that I have been doing this at the expense of Weeks owners just would not stand up to the light of day. (If Weeks owners want to claim that I deprived them of the opportunity to trade their GC July beach unit for a white, inland Texas week, then so be it.)

I do remember when I was in Weeks. Year in, year out trade downs. I would read these boards and wonder how others did it. I realized that some of my problem was that most the braggers had several weeks and this allowed them to play bait and switch. Weeks owners profiting at the expense of other Weeks owners. You couldn't do bait and switch with just one week ownership. I tried one of the touted alternative exchange companies with decidedly mixed success. What else was I doing wrong? Was RCI skimming the top resorts? (The hidden screen of trading power within Weeks would enable just that.) What was happening behind that screen of secrecy called "trading power"? (The formulas had to be kept secret to protect me? HA!)

Yeah, I've seen both sides now. I have come to realize that the very worst aspect of the Weeks system is not that it allows some members to profit at the expense of others, nor, that the "rigid" one-for-one pricing scheme can be used to facilitate constant loss of value of one's unit every time you trade, but... The veil of secrecy that is at the very heart of the Weeks system (how many credits are on my magnetic strip?) creates nothing but suspicion, hatred, and animosity -- toward RCI, toward other timeshare owners, toward timeshare ownership.

One of the more instructive posts that I've seen was on the Points board. Someone had said that they used some of their points in a crossover trade to get a very decidedly pink week (really pink). A Weeks owner popped up and said "Aren't you ashamed of yourself!!! How can you live with yourself?" Huh! "Well you stole from the Weeks system." (A pink week that was likely to go into the pile of excess inventory?) "Well, I was reading a certain individual's posts on the Exchange Board and I came to the conclusion that we couldn't get summer beach weeks because of people like you."

What does Weeks foster? Suspicion, hatred, skapegoating... I know what it is like to be a red pill taker. My life was filled with the same "I need to watch my back" and "Who is stealing from me" attitudes -- toward fellow TUGGERs, toward RCI, toward timesharing. (And, it wasn't because of Points. Points did not exist then.) I am glad to be consuming the blue pill. The days of hatred are over. I know what the value of my unit is and what value I receive in return. The secrecy is gone, and, with that, the suspicions that I am being jobbed. No more speaking bitter.

 

[teepeeca]

Re: What are your rights ---JEFFV

You are very correct that you can "opt-out" of points after the three year mark. (Actually I "think" you have to let RCI know that you are "opting-out" by the end of the two year mark, or you are automatically re-entered into the points system for the next three years.)

BUT, if you "opt-out", you have lost your "points conversion fee" --how much is that---$199 to $4995??? (The Pahio salespeople want to charge the $4995 to convert weeks to points !!!)

And, if you ever want to go back into points, you will have to pay another conversion fee. I'm glad "someone" is making $$$ !!!

Tony

 

[timeos2]

Re: Roger Post

What a beautiful summary of life on both sides of the trade system fence. I share your exact feelings.

I had railed against the "bait n' switch" for years which was basically complaining that other fellow owners - and TUGGERS - were taking the best weeks out of the system with deposits that shouldn't have been able to do that. It was one of the worst parts of the old weeks and still exists to a smaller degree today. I also tried other weeks only venues and never saw the trades that were often spoken of here unless I spent far too much time trying to work the secret system. It was frustrating and costly and did end up making my actions create one of the select few trades that were getting far more than a simple fair trade out - which was all I really wanted. Weeks didn't let it happen. You took more than your fair share if you worked the system correctly or you took a beating in "standard" trades.

Once I was introduced to points (in my case Fairfield) the control over my use and the ability to adjust what I traded to fit exactly what I needed was a breath of fresh air. From then on I made it a goal to get all my ownerships into a points system for trades. With RCI Points that was 100% accomplished so now I can use my week(s), trade as weeks if it makes sense (SFX) or use a points based system. My satisfaction level with timesharing has skyrocketed to new heights and it is FUN to trade not a tedious, often disappointing chore.

The claims that somehow points is ruining weeks systems simply aren't true as both exist side by side easily. Points has made the shortcomings of week for week trades far more obvious but the issues were always there just hidden from view by the closed, secret weeks systems.

With points I know everyone in the system has the same chance at every use, that they won't take the biggest and best just because it is there and they have to take it or lose it, and that they will only take the time they can actually use (maybe only 3-4 days rather than a full 7 day week) leaving the rest for others to enjoy. I feel good about points while there was a feeling of getting one over on the system when using weeks.

Thanks for a great post Roger.

 

[huestous]

Re: What are you rights

Once you assign your rights by leasing you property in exchenge for points you are at the mercy of the point controlling entity. This entity can do whatever it wishes with your property leaving you little contractual recourse. When that entity is the developer or tied to the developer, I have little confidence that they have your interest first, especially since their dual role already represents a inherent conflict. This is also true in floating weeks where the developer controls the managment and reservation system

It never occurred to me that my purchase was permanent and my membership forced.

I've apparently been deluded in thinking that as long as I am happy with my purchases and my exchange company that I will keep them. Else I'll cancel the membership and sell the timeshare.

 

[T_R_Oglodyte]

Re: What are you rights

All points enthusiasts support thie position with anectdotal stories. As a FIXED weeks person my rights come from the deed and my direct ownership not leased to be leased back properties which is the underpinning of all points systems. Once you assign your rights by leasing you property in exchenge for points you are at the mercy of the point controlling entity. This entity can do whatever it wishes with your property leaving you little contractual recourse. When that entity is the developer or tied to the developer, I have little confidence that they have your interest first, especially since their dual role already represents a inherent conflict. This is also true in floating weeks where the developer controls the managment and reservation system

Tell me please, how to work a fixed week in my situation. My wife is a school teacher. She gets a full week of vacation every April, and we often spend that week in a warm location - western Mexico works well for us.

The hooker for us is that the week that she gets in April varies from year to year.

I'll grant your premise that you know more about floating weeks and Point systems than I do. Accordingly, I'll presume that I should dump my floating week ownership that we have to meet those vacation plans.

So tell me how I should try to work our plans using fixed weeks?

*********

Or might you be willing to admit that a floating week ownership makes sense if it:

• allows us to reserve directly the week that we need
• gives us our choice of about 10 locations that are quality resorts in locations that we would have requested if we tried to exchange,
• avoids paying exchange fees and exchange company memberships
• allows us to call up and reserve our units directly, without having to wait on an exchange that may or may not come through
• enables us to book flights using FF miles early enough to get seats while there are still FF seats available.
• allows us to split our single week into two weeks, allowing us two weeks of vacation for one fee and giving us the option to rent one week to defray ownership cost.

 

[T_R_Oglodyte]

Re: What are you rights

It never occurred to me that my purchase was permanent and my membership forced.

I've apparently been deluded in thinking that as long as I am happy with my purchases and my exchange company that I will keep them. Else I'll cancel the membership and sell the timeshare.

Isn't the blue pill wonderful?

BTW - continuing the Matrix analogy. After you take the pill, you still can't know which world is the real world. Maybe it's the red pill that leads to the illusionary world?

 

[AwayWeGo]

Getting Over On The System

I feel good about points while there was a feeling of getting one over on the system when using weeks.

Shucks, I enjoy the feeling of getting over on the system as much as the next person, maybe even a tad more.

But buying "used" timeshares resale instead of paying full freight for "new" ones generates something like that same feeling.

Ditto getting nice USA week-for-week timeshare reservations in exchange for depositing my low-cost overseas timeshare week.

Ditto Last Call & Instant Exchange.

Ditto timeshare tours for freebies.

Ditto Yahoo timeshare groups & TUG.

Just with those, I feel I've got pretty much all the savvy insider knowledge I need in order to have fun with timeshares -- a good thing, too, since there's no way I'm smart enough or quick enough to figure out bait & switch or any of those other cool trade-up tricks from the good old days of shrewd timeshare weeks exchanging.

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.

 

[BocaBum99]

Re: What are you rights

Tell me please, how to work a fixed week in my situation. My wife is a school teacher. She gets a full week of vacation every April, and we often spend that week in a warm location - western Mexico works well for us.

The hooker for us is that the week that she gets in April varies from year to year.

I'll grant your premise that you know more about floating weeks and Point systems than I do. Accordingly, I'll presume that I should dump my floating week ownership that we have to meet those vacation plans.

So tell me how I should try to work our plans using fixed weeks?

*********

Or might you be willing to admit that a floating week ownership makes sense if it:

• allows us to reserve directly the week that we need
• gives us our choice of about 10 locations that are quality resorts in locations that we would have requested if we tried to exchange,
• avoids paying exchange fees and exchange company memberships
• allows us to call up and reserve our units directly, without having to wait on an exchange that may or may not come through
• enables us to book flights using FF miles early enough to get seats while there are still FF seats available.
• allows us to split our single week into two weeks, allowing us two weeks of vacation for one fee and giving us the option to rent one week to defray ownership cost.

Steve,

Solving your problem is easy with fixed weeks. All you need to do is sell your week every year after using it and buy a new one that is oceanfront in the location you want for the week your wife has off next year. Heck, if you buy low enough and sell high enough, those vacations could be free.

 

[timeos2]

Weeks trades almost always have winners and losers

Alan -

Not saying there is anything wrong with the items you list as they are a part of the seriously flawed weeks systems. But that is the issue. To be satisfied with weeks someone in the system paid far more whether it was purchase cost or annual fees and got little or nothing out. Would you be as happy if every week you owned only got something of exact equal quality/value or less? That is what is supposed to occur not regular upgrades for those who know how to play. It is a winning game for the players and a big loser for the the majority.

Points spreads the wealth over seasons and allows the users to make the decisions without penalizing those who can't or won't figure out how weeks work. And even if they do figure there is a key there is no place to turn for values (how many posts have we seen here time and time again asking "What is the trade vaue of XXXX.." ) so there is no answer. I didn't mind getting trade ups but I prefer just being able to know I'm using a level playing field and everyone gets the same chance for a satisfactory trade. I don't need to be the winner while realizing someone else had to lose. It doesn't make my vacation any better and could have ruined someone elses.

 

[BocaBum99]

Re: Weeks trades almost always have winners and losers

Alan -

Not saying there is anything wrong with the items you list as they are a part of the seriously flawed weeks systems. But that is the issue. To be satisfied with weeks someone in the system paid far more whether it was purchase cost or annual fees and got little or nothing out. Would you be as happy if every week you owned only got something of exact equal quality/value or less? That is what is supposed to occur not regular upgrades for those who know how to play. It is a winning game for the players and a big loser for the the majority.

Points spreads the wealth over seasons and allows the users to make the decisions without penalizing those who can't or won't figure out how weeks work. And even if they do figure there is a key there is no place to turn for values (how many posts have we seen here time and time again asking "What is the trade vaue of XXXX.." ) so there is no answer. I didn't mind getting trade ups but I prefer just being able to know I'm using a level playing field and everyone gets the same chance for a satisfactory trade. I don't need to be the winner while realizing someone else had to lose. It doesn't make my vacation any better and could have ruined someone elses.

I have experience in many point systems and many weeks systems. In general, I have found it much easier to trade up in weeks than in points. More often than not, it's close to a fair trade in points.

When I first started timesharing, I thought that points was the best answer. After having actually used the systems, I would say now that the best values are the weeks trade ups. But, those aren't available all year around. So, to cover those other times, points alternatives are a better choice.

 

[AwayWeGo]

Winners & Losers?

Would you be as happy if every week you owned only got something of exact equal quality/value or less?

Call me naive, but I still assume that's pretty much what happens with my trades into nice USA timeshares based on depositing a nice 2BR red-season week in a distant location.

Sure, it's too far for me to go there on vacation (even if I could talk The Chief Of Staff into it, which is unlikely to say the least), but that's the beauty of a worldwide resort exchange system -- some resort that's too far away for me to enjoy may be a highly desirable vacation hotspot for other members of the system in other parts of the world. Who knows?

That is to say, I didn't buy my overseas standard-grade red-season 2BR unit with the idea in mind that it's a swampy mud shack some loser will get stuck with every time I trade it. I bought it because the international currency exchange at the time favored the dollars in my pocket -- there may be winners & losers in foreign currency speculation, but that's a whole other field. Not only that, the Wiisdom Of TUG at the time indicated that these foreign resort gems would "trade like a tiger" -- presumably because they are highly regarded & in demand by vacationers looking for their own advantageous timeshare trades.

I have no doubt that timeshare weeks exchanges can involve winners & losers -- especially in back in those goold old days when the newbies were up against the shrewdies.

But the timeshare exchange dream book is thick, with lots & lots of slick color pages listing loads of resorts in many nice locations. Is it really so unlikely that an exchange that's advantageous to me is also advantageous to the other participants?

Are win-win timeshare trades really that rare?

Meanwhile, hedging my bets & tuning in to more of the Wisdom Of TUG, I have entered into the points system myself in a penny-ante kind of way -- so that if it's true that the points people are unfairly raiding the weeks inventory, then at least there's a chance I can get in on a little of it.

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.

 

[T_R_Oglodyte]

Re: Winners & Losers?

Are win-win timeshare trades really that rare?

Win-win is actually the heart of the system.

After stripping away all of the smoke and rhetoric about weeks, points, fliiats, hidden values, crosover matrices, that's what it comes down.

Like any deal, I give up something of value for something that is worth more to me than what I gave up. If I pay $20,000 for a vehicle, that's because that vehicle is worth more to me than the $20,000 in my pocket. The dealer makes the deal because the $20,000 is worth more to him than the vehicle.

We each swap something that is worth more to us than what we gave up. When there is no win-win, the deals stop happening. For all of the rumblings, he numbers indicate that all exchange companies are moving more product every year - in all types of systems. That wouldn't happen if there weren't a lot of people believing that, on the whole, they were getting value back for what they were giving up (including exchange fees and memberships).

 

[Carolinian]

Re: What are your rights ---JEFFV

The North Carolina Real Estate Commission required RCI Points to drop the automatic ''re-up'' provision, and some others, in order for the Commission to agree not to treat RCI Points as a developer rather than an exchange program. As far as I know, RCI Points made this change throughout their system. That occured in the early days of GPN.

You are correct about the financial disincentives.

You are very correct that you can "opt-out" of points after the three year mark. (Actually I "think" you have to let RCI know that you are "opting-out" by the end of the two year mark, or you are automatically re-entered into the points system for the next three years.)

BUT, if you "opt-out", you have lost your "points conversion fee" --how much is that---$199 to $4995??? (The Pahio salespeople want to charge the $4995 to convert weeks to points !!!)

And, if you ever want to go back into points, you will have to pay another conversion fee. I'm glad "someone" is making $$$ !!!

Tony

 

[Carolinian]

Re: Roger Post

Get Points hand out of Weeks pocket by eliminating the crossover grids, and then the systems can exist side by side. As long as one is a leach on the other, well, that is an entirely different matter. Points advocates always want to gloss over that.

What a beautiful summary of life on both sides of the trade system fence. I share your exact feelings.

I had railed against the "bait n' switch" for years which was basically complaining that other fellow owners - and TUGGERS - were taking the best weeks out of the system with deposits that shouldn't have been able to do that. It was one of the worst parts of the old weeks and still exists to a smaller degree today. I also tried other weeks only venues and never saw the trades that were often spoken of here unless I spent far too much time trying to work the secret system. It was frustrating and costly and did end up making my actions create one of the select few trades that were getting far more than a simple fair trade out - which was all I really wanted. Weeks didn't let it happen. You took more than your fair share if you worked the system correctly or you took a beating in "standard" trades.

Once I was introduced to points (in my case Fairfield) the control over my use and the ability to adjust what I traded to fit exactly what I needed was a breath of fresh air. From then on I made it a goal to get all my ownerships into a points system for trades. With RCI Points that was 100% accomplished so now I can use my week(s), trade as weeks if it makes sense (SFX) or use a points based system. My satisfaction level with timesharing has skyrocketed to new heights and it is FUN to trade not a tedious, often disappointing chore.

The claims that somehow points is ruining weeks systems simply aren't true as both exist side by side easily. Points has made the shortcomings of week for week trades far more obvious but the issues were always there just hidden from view by the closed, secret weeks systems.

With points I know everyone in the system has the same chance at every use, that they won't take the biggest and best just because it is there and they have to take it or lose it, and that they will only take the time they can actually use (maybe only 3-4 days rather than a full 7 day week) leaving the rest for others to enjoy. I feel good about points while there was a feeling of getting one over on the system when using weeks.

Thanks for a great post Roger.

 

[timeos2]

Re: Roger Post

Get Points hand out of Weeks pocket by eliminating the crossover grids, and then the systems can exist side by side. As long as one is a leach on the other, well, that is an entirely different matter. Points advocates always want to gloss over that.

The cross over grids aren't free time - it is an exchange of value like any other. If you don't like what the grid says the values are imagine how upset you would be if the secret weeks values were ever disclosed as the same group created both. Points owners are still weeks owners and thus get the right to both sides as they should.

 

[boyblue]

We have now arived at the point in the points vs weeks debate where I become convinced that Caro is just playing devil's advocate. I'm sure that he is having a bit of fun at our expense.

 

[Carolinian]

Re: Roger Post

Who created them is really irrelevent. The two systems function quite differently. Points owners are only ''weeks owners'' becuase RCI wrongfully gives them a ''free'' Weeks membership, the administrative costs of which are being subsidized by real Weeks members. This is part of what is wrong with the interface between the systems. The problem is that Points would fall on its face if it ever had to try to stand on its own two feet without being subsidized by Weeks, so RCI engineered the looting of Weeks to prop it up.

No, the grids are not free, just highly discounted, and that is bad enough. Nobody ever said it was free.

The cross over grids aren't free time - it is an exchange of value like any other. If you don't like what the grid says the values are imagine how upset you would be if the secret weeks values were ever disclosed as the same group created both. Points owners are still weeks owners and thus get the right to both sides as they should.